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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 3686738 times)

Egan_BW

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Did someone use a MLK quote to support the platform of punching the baddies, or did I misinterpret? Because I don't think that's what that's supposed to mean.
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PTTG??

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Hey so reminder the nazis literally committed terror attacks in the last year in case you forgot.  Also, there's a captain planet villain in charge of the epa. Liberals that aren't angry aren't paying attention.
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EnigmaticHat

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Did someone use a MLK quote to support the platform of punching the baddies, or did I misinterpret? Because I don't think that's what that's supposed to mean.
No, someone used an MLK quote condemning "the white moderate" as a way to explain why reasonable people could become nazi apologists.
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Pwnzerfaust

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Hey so reminder the nazis literally committed terror attacks in the last year in case you forgot.  Also, there's a captain planet villain in charge of the epa. Liberals that aren't angry aren't paying attention.
You mean, terror attack, singular? One individual person in a car? The way you phrase that makes it sound like dozens of Nazis are shooting down Jews in the street on a daily basis.

Ok so is it still ok to punch the ones that say "I'm a fucking nazi"
No. Initiating violence is not okay.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2017, 11:31:01 pm by Pwnzerfaust »
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EnigmaticHat

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You're not wrong but, bit of a fine distinction there.  Nazis have literally done that.  Any neo-nazi who doesn't explicitly have that as an end goal is a whimsical idiot who befriended the wrong people.
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You misspelled seance.  Are possessing Draignean?  Are you actually a ghost in the shell? You have to tell us if you are, that's the rule

Pwnzerfaust

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Fair enough, but I don't believe people should inflate things beyond what they actually are, no matter who committed it. It just serves to make yourself look like an idiot. So when you claim that Nazis committed terror attacks in the last year, one should not inflate the numbers beyond the single instance which actually occurred.
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Trekkin

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Hey so reminder the nazis literally committed terror attacks in the last year in case you forgot.  Also, there's a captain planet villain in charge of the epa. Liberals that aren't angry aren't paying attention.

Oh, they're terrorists, right enough -- which is why we can't fight them with terrorist wannabes who will "punch them till they're too scared to openly say this shit" or whatever the current rhetoric is. They're already terrified well beyond that. That's why they're terrorists: the only thing they can think to do is to make everyone else as scared as they are in the hopes they'll adopt the same ideology.

You can't scare people out of being terrorists. They just think you're trying to play along, because that's all they can see anymore; they publicly crow over your desperation and privately redouble their efforts. You also can't shame them out of being terrorists; they wouldn't have come this far if they hadn't been able to justify their existence by the negative reaction of their targets. They need people threatening them to feel important.

And, thus far, the more emphatically and vocally anti-Nazi crowd is happy to oblige.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2017, 12:00:18 am by Trekkin »
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RedKing

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Hey so reminder the nazis literally committed terror attacks in the last year in case you forgot.  Also, there's a captain planet villain in charge of the epa. Liberals that aren't angry aren't paying attention.

Oh, they're terrorists, right enough -- which is why we can't fight them with terrorist wannabes who will "punch them till they're too scared to openly say this shit" or whatever the current rhetoric is. They're already terrified well beyond that. That's why they're terrorists: the only thing they can think to do is to make everyone else as scared as they are in the hopes they'll adopt the same ideology.

You can't scare people out of being terrorists. They just think you're trying to play along, because that's all they can see anymore; they publicly crow over your desperation and privately redouble their efforts. You also can't shame them out of being terrorists; they wouldn't have come this far if they hadn't been able to justify their existence by the negative reaction of their targets. They need people threatening them to feel important.

And, thus far, the more emphatically and vocally anti-Nazi crowd is happy to oblige.
And your solution is what then? Just hug it out? Light candles and sing Kum Ba Ya and wait for them to be blinded by your nonviolent righteousness? Play guitar at them until their consciousness rises enough to turn them Liberal?

I'm genuinely asking, because I haven't seen a realistic alternative offered.
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Reelya

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And your solution is what then? Just hug it out? Light candles and sing Kum Ba Ya and wait for them to be blinded by your nonviolent righteousness? Play guitar at them until their consciousness rises enough to turn them Liberal?

I'm genuinely asking, because I haven't seen a realistic alternative offered.

That's a false choice. Your option is even less realistic than that.

Random punching and talking about punching isn't effective either. Unless you're willing to actually genocide them, sporadic violence only solidifies violent extremists. However, community solidarity and working together - and that has to includes their potential recruits - does weaken them. The civil rights movement did not get off the ground by excluding the white majority from the discussion. The "middle" is your audience, however the radical left acts like they don't need to listen to anyone except the radical left. In fact they actually reject anything dialogue with anyone outside the radical left, and excommunicate those who start asking questions. It's incestuous and it's eating itself. You don't win anything by doubling-down on radical ideological purity contests.

Look how Antifa appears to other liberals. Then consider how they appear to non-liberals. Is someone going go "oh Antifa is upset I better not become a Nazi after all". Nobody does that. The existence of Antifa becomes an advert for the Alt-Right. Look at some of the Alt-Right personalities on youtube, the more palatable ones. Antifa and other radicals on the left are making them look like the voice of reason. And those are the guys you're really competing with, not the KKK and The American National Socialist Party. And if you don't get people on your side, how can you expect to win? Antifa goons are ineffective and they look so bad that they make the other guys seems like a viable alternative.

Going around in black masks hitting people with shit and screaming radical leftist slogans isn't going to win the hearts and minds of the people you need to convince. And it does jack shit to reduce the number of bona-fide Nazis.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2017, 12:50:06 am by Reelya »
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RedKing

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Again, what is your alternative? All I'm hearing is "your way sucks".

"Community solidarity and working together" -- what the fuck does that even mean? In real, actionable terms? Preferably with demonstrated instances where it's actually worked.


EDIT: Now, if you want to level a real criticism at Antifa's actions in Charlottesville, it's that they didn't work. Spencer and his thugs were back there this past weekend. Though the reason they were able to do so without incident was because they planned the entire thing in secret and used a flash mob, basically.

They probably feel pretty pleased with themselves for having outsmarted everyone. Now their videos of them marching unmolested will circulate on the Internet, inspiring every wannabe little fascist with their "victory". It's suddenly safe to be a Weekend Nazi again.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2017, 01:21:04 am by RedKing »
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Remember, knowledge is power. The power to make other people feel stupid.
Quote from: Neil DeGrasse Tyson
Science is like an inoculation against charlatans who would have you believe whatever it is they tell you.

Trekkin

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And your solution is what then? Just hug it out? Light candles and sing Kum Ba Ya and wait for them to be blinded by your nonviolent righteousness? Play guitar at them until their consciousness rises enough to turn them Liberal?

I'm genuinely asking, because I haven't seen a realistic alternative offered.

Good question. To be totally upfront, I don't have a complete answer I'm willing to call a definitive plan; I only know some of the bounds on the solution space, which in turn create necessary but individually insufficient elements. Nazis are but the symptom of a much larger set of problems.

For one thing, stop punching them and start ignoring them. Quit counter-protesting, quit giving them anyone to mock or shout at. We need more events where a bunch of beered-up rebels with excessive numbers of firearms stand in an otherwise empty cemetery guarding it from nothing and feeling vaguely foolish, and it's no trouble to get them to believe that Antifa is going to strike everywhere next. They believe fake news. Like most terrorists, their ideals are more terrible than the idiot kids comprising most of their membership. Let them throw their tantrums and tuck them in when they finally tire themselves out. If they actually get violent, by all means defend yourself, but if they just want to shout dangerous nonsense, laugh and move on. They don't recruit people with their rhetoric; they recruit people with the response to their rhetoric calling for them all to be violently stamped out.

For another, we need to quit mocking flyover country. Every idiot with a tiki torch and a swastika armband came out of an American school, and we failed them just as we failed to give their parents something to do when we replaced them with robots and now none of them have any idea what to do with their time. That's an entirely different and much more fundamental problem, but it's one we can deal with at least for the remainder of their natural lives if we just get Democratic leadership to quit laughing at socialism and start figuring out how to sell it to people who want "fairness" but hate "handouts." Hell, call it reparations for liberal elitism and they'll blow the doors off trying to get their fair share. Anything we can do to make them feel less like the doomed punchline of a national joke makes Nazism seem like a more extreme recourse.

Then there's the matter of removing the entrenched Republicanism at the local level that keeps getting these people fired up and selling them a bill of goods. This part is easy: if you're a liberal, and you're pissed, run for the stupidest podunk local office you can find and displace whatever sixty-term incumbent has been alderman's assistant cupbearer for the past century or whatever. Let no one run unopposed and make everyone defend themselves. Democrats have done an excellent job convincing themselves that small offices aren't worth their time, and now Republicans run local and state government and have an excellent bench to throw at national offices. It's also a very old bench because they've irrevocably hitched themselves to the Boomers' generational politics, and that creates an opening where progressives can have candidates with credentials ready by the time they're no longer numerous enough to be the dominant voting bloc. In the meantime, bringing local politics to peoples' attention cannot help but find places where it's too expensive to keep buying local politicians and that's where we can start making actual change that will help with the choking cynicism currently fueling our national discourse. There's no more useful force than a bunch of entitled brats looking at the next town over and demanding "why can't we have that?"

That's not enough. That's not nearly enough. But it's a start.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2017, 01:43:22 am by Trekkin »
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Pwnzerfaust

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Again, what is your alternative? All I'm hearing is "your way sucks".
It does suck, and it's needlessly violent. That's all that really needs to be said.
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Reelya

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Also the main point is that the takeaway here is media coverage.

Antifa was out at Charlottesville one time, media coverage of the Nazis was at the maximum. Widespread national news exposure. Next time, Antifa wasn't there. You can't be there all the time. Now, how much is the media covering it now? Fuck all probably. And the only reason that the media would be interested is wondering "are Antifa going to show up again so we get a spectacle?"

What do you think the Neo-Nazis wanted to happen by marching again at Charlottesville? I can tell you right now, that they wanted another fight so that they'd get national news coverage again. This is not a "victory" for a political movement. "Safe to be a weekend Nazi" <= wtf is that. Nazis don't want it to be "safe" to march, they want to spread the message that they're fighting the fight against the violent leftists.

~~~

When people talking about Direct Action and how it's been effective in the past they have this backwards. The suffragettes petitioned the nation for voting rights, the civil rights movement petitioned for equal treatment before the law.

Suffragettes did not create masked "hit squads" which went around beating up sexist men, and the civil rights movement did not create death squads to take out KKK members (or at least The Black Panthers and co weren't actually politically effective). That's the difference between direct action for a political goal and straight-up thuggery. It doesn't matter if you can point out "well the people we're beating up are worse thugs". Beating people up isn't effective Direct Action.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2017, 02:13:14 am by Reelya »
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Max™

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Seems like they're pretty quick to jump out of the uniform once you scare them enough, at least. He sure wasn't convinced to do this with reasoned argument, though I'm sure he'd prefer to deal with that, because he's a bitchboy wearing a hateful flag. Myself, I'm going to continue mocking this bunch of hateful bitchboys by assuming they're all just like that punk kid, and encourage others to do so while keeping in mind that declaring one's self to be a nazi carries with it an implicit threat of violence against a huge swath of the population. There's a problem with trying to hold a peaceful discussion when the other side has a key part of their platform being the removal of non-white people without much concern how they go about it.
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Reelya

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How is a plain white polo shirt the "uniform"? That doesn't make any sense bro. Some guy in a white polo shirt who took his shirt off is not good evidence of the claim you're making. He also took a baseball cap off, but i couldn't see anything written on that. So it wasn't even a Trump hat or anything, just a plain cap. White polo shirt, grey baseball cap and tan shorts is the official Nazi uniform now? Or just because that girls twitter feed told the narrative like that so you're just repeating / embellishing it?

What he probably meant to be displaying, was that he was showing that he doesn't have any e.g. right-wing tattoos under his shirt. He clearly wasn't saying "look I took my polo shirt off - I'm no Nazi, see" ... because that blatantly doesn't make a fucking lick of sense, since "Nazi = anyone in a Polo Shirt" is news to me.

"He almost had the fun beaten right out of him" is the entire message here. Because some decidely non-Nazi guy was making fun of activists. But look how the people on the other side are dressed, they came completely battle-ready, and some have masks. And you're telling me some random fratboy is the one in the "uniform"?
« Last Edit: October 10, 2017, 05:36:53 am by Reelya »
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