Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Andres]

@Andres: Now that's just unnecessary pessimism. We enlarge falcons (not even making any new creatures) and give them basic training. The effects are effectiveness in pretty much every stage (picking off artillery, general combat in melee [though this is least useful stage], picking off enemies in Routing, and picking off enemies in Skirmish) as well as a direct counter to flying carpets. We can develop on it to great effects in the future, too.

They'd be useful, sure, but that invalidates nothing of what I said. We have experience in creating plants and small bugs, not animals large enough to fly while mounted. You also want them tame enough to be ridden and well trained enough to be useful. It also does not consider that they can be shot out of the sky with their bows or their ballistas.

Also, despite their usefulness, they are incapable of wiping out every single enemy in an entire region, while our frost towers demonstrably were. Your falcons may be a counter to flying carpets (as well as useful in several other areas), but frost towers are counters to everything.

Glory to Arstotzka.

[Light forger]

My main point against doubling down on the frost towers is we are nearing the point where we will start to have to use revisions/designs to protect ourselves against them. Also they already have their foot in the door at making counters to our frost magics. Not only will the musket kill their flyers real good(can't use wind on a musket ball to much effect) we can then grab flares so we can see them at night and get artillery spotting.

[Andres]

My main point against doubling down on the frost towers is we are nearing the point where we will start to have to use revisions/designs to protect ourselves against them.

This isn't true. We only need the frost to get to the point where they kill all Moskurgs but spare Arstotzkans, and we succeeded. Just look at how we captured the Mountains. Doubling down on the frost towers would require that we develop countermeasures, but that's only if we do such an imbecilic thing as to build the maximum amount of frost towers instead of the optimum amount.

In the Mountains, for example, if we double the intensity of the frost towers, we'll simply halve the number of frost towers we build in the Mountains. The sweet spot is maintained and we get surplus towers.

Finally, even though it is 100% unnecessary for the reasons I mentioned above, we can just use previous versions of frost towers in already cold areas such as the Mountains.

Also they already have their foot in the door at making counters to our frost magics.

It's a crappy foot in the door, not something they evidently care that much about, and we can beat them with our design even if they do put some more effort into countering it. We would have an advantage in this hypothetical arms race.

Even then, the more of their mages are focused on doing anything about our towers, the less there will be available for bombing us or hitting us with their ballistas.

Glory to Arstotzka.

[helmacon]

Let's think for a second about how the enemy might counter our frost towers. They now have a rudimentary air force. A few revisions into fighter and bomber variants and they now have the ability to destroy targets behind our front lines. Our towers are too expensive to lose even a few. Making them bigger and stronger will only make them more expensive.

[Andres]

Let's think for a second about how the enemy might counter our frost towers. They now have a rudimentary air force. A few revisions into fighter and bomber variants and they now have the ability to destroy targets behind our front lines. Our towers are too expensive to lose even a few. Making them bigger and stronger will only make them more expensive.

Have you not been reading what I have already written multiple times? Our frost towers will kill the mages long before they even reach the towers because of the cold. Their range is too great for that already, all that is missing is the intensity, and giving them more range would be overkill.

Furthermore, a few more designs and revisions later means we ourselves will also have a few more designs and revisions, so it's not like they'll be defenceless. We'll have developed something by the time their bombers become threats to the towers.


I should mention that there is another reason for us to do frost towers: the revision credit. If we do the frost towers, we can send the Mountains into such depths of cold that even Arstotzkans wouldn't survive, much less Moskurgs. With such a degree of cold, it would be unnecessary to station any troops there whatsoever. With so many troops freed up, we'll be all but assured to get the revision credit.

Glory to Arstotzka.

[helmacon]

Frost towers are not actively directed. They passively cool the environment. A permanent base may be near impossible for them, but a quick rade with an air force thats back home in a few hours? Easy stuff. Wear a big coat, you'll be fine.

[FallacyofUrist]

How about this:

Flare Wand: Breaking the bottom part of this colored wand will cause a small fireball, about the same as our Streamlined Fireball before we turned it into a Greater Fireball using a wand, to shoot out of the top. This fireball has greatly increased range and luminosity, but is basically useless for actually hurting somebody it hits. Mild burning at most. Easily survivable. Each wand has a different color, and when broken, will shoot a fireball of several colors.

These wands have several applications.

One: they are bright enough that a Moskurgian carpet flyer... well, read this incident report.

Spoiler: Incident Report 933-Alpha-3: (click to show/hide)

At roughly midnight, a Moskurgian carpet mage was detected flying into our Tundra, towards our research lab. Perhaps a covert mission intended to gain intelligence on our operations.

Luckily, one of the best of our Mage Hunters saw the interloper and took the prototype Flare Wand we gave him. He broke the bottom part of it, sending a red flare at the intruder.

The Mage Hunter swears he saw the mage rapidly lift his hands to his face before he crashed.

Whatever happened, the Moskurgian was not pleased to be blinded mid flight, and likely lost his concentration and crashed as a result.

Sadly, the Moskurgian is dead, and his carpet was burned beyond use by the flare which hit with extraordinary accuracy. See Autopsy Report 933-Alpha-11. This prevents interrogation of the interloper or examination of his vehicle

Two: by means of a communications system one of our officers have designed, they can be used to communicate rapidly.

Spoiler: Some Details (click to show/hide)

Most information we convey through a flare is conveyed by color and circumstance.

For example, a troop of Spotters deployed to locate enemy positions can send up a red flare to indicate artillery, a yellow flare to indicate troops, a green flare for all clear, and a black one for al-Mutriqa.

However, a commander may use different colors for this same purpose. A red for advance, a blue for fall back, a yellow for hold position...

For the full details, talk to our new communications officers.

A third use: firing straight up when a camp is under attack will likely lead to a quick awakening of our troops, though there are likely better ways to protect our camps.

Since voting one's own proposal is bad etiquette, however, I will vote Giant Falcons, because we need a counter to their carpets, sentries for our camps, and messengers, and falcons can provide all three.

2 - Improved Frost Towers: Andres, 10ebbor10
4 - Giant Falcons: Chiefwaffles, Helmacon, FallacyofUrist, Roboson
0 - Flare Wands:

[Roboson]

I'm on my phone, so I can't quote the votes well. So if someone could add me on for giant falcons when it's next updated, I'd appreciate that.

[Chiefwaffles]

Good point on the sentries + messengers aspect of Falcons, Fallacy. Since that doesn't add any complexity to the design, I'll edit it into the Giant Falcons post.
Flare Wand is okay. I don't really understand why it's worth using a design action on Flare Wand over a revision on Flare, which is definitely a very realistic action. I suppose that Flare Wand may be usable by non-magic troops? But even then, our apprentices are very widespread and mages are already assigned at a rate of something similar to "one per squad", right?

EDIT: Bonus aspect of Giant Falcon: Moskurg carpets are very clearly equipped for bombardment purposes. Taking them on directly via air would give us a huge advantage (at first). Not a selling point or anything, but something nice to consider.

[VoidSlayer]

We already have things that fly through the air, we just need to control them:

Homing Fireballs:  The mage who casts this remains in control of the elemental magic even at a distance, allowing them to direct the fireball's motion through the air.  This allows standard, big explodey fireballs which can move directly to a moving target then detonate on command.  The sustained nature of this spell allows it greater range.

This has two new things, elemental control at a range and sustaining the fireballs at a range, but should be enough to completely devastate their air force without the anti-magic.

[evictedSaint]

Whatever.  After giving it some thought, Arstotzka's plant mages can now affect patches of plants in a diameter equal to their height and grow them up to their own height, regardless of the plants type or initial size.  All their boats are now steam ships, because it makes sense that an ordinary wooden boat cost the same with a steam engine on it.  I'm not changing their new artillery piece or nerfing Moskurgs carpets.  I'm tired of arguing. 

[RAM]

2.5 - Improved Frost Towers: Andres, 10ebbor10 RAM.5
1? Dragon Micro-Cannons: Light gorger?
0 Frost Thrower Heavy weapon emplacement:
0 AS-HC3 "Unending":
0 Flak Shells. AS-SO1-AA "Turbulence":
0 Lazarus Initiative:
0 AS-AMD1 "Obelisk":
0 Magegems:
0 Crystalworks:
0 Flares:
0 Sacrificial summons: Frost Vulture Aviary Program:
0 Summon Giant Fire-wasps.:
0 Tall Frost towers:
0 Pillar of unmagic:
4 - Giant Falcons: Chiefwaffles, Helmacon, FallacyofUrist, Roboson
1 - Flare Wands: RAM
0.5 Homing Fireballs: RAM.5

I would like the improved frost tower, except they are blowing the frost back at us when outside of its range, freezing our homelands, and the frost towers could serve as lookouts. We would likely need a revision to warm our peoples. Also they already serve as fortifications, with a bit more height we could get spotting towers.
The micro-cannons seem a bit minor to me. I think we need to focus on the navy and air at the moment. Both are extremely neglected.
The frost-thrower seems like it would be shelled to death from beyond its range befoe it can fire.
Unending seems like a silly method. We could summon shells, already loaded, instead. ACtually, we could probably do that with an order, given how much crystal experience we have, and given that the shells don't have and chemical explosives in them. Crystals shells would be lighter, but just pop, summon a shell already loaded... They would be dispellable, of course, but throwing their antimagic around reduces their magical support and it is not like we would stop using mundane shells...
I would again use magic for Turbulence. Just package some ball-bearing(ancient things) into a summoned crystal with grooves to make it spin(rifling). The crystal unsummons with time and then *pop* ball bearins show off centrifugal force... We could summon additional crystals with shorter life-times to act as a countdown for when the crystal will unsummon. This could apply not just ackack but also air-burst rounds... Givn that we already have loads of crystals, and ball0bearings are dead-simple, this would probably be a revision...
Lazarus is nice, but is very ambitious, would likely fail against antimagic, and does nothing for air and sea.
Obelisk is like my pillar of unmagic, which seems like it could have shut the enemy down several times. But unlike the pillar of unmagic, I do not see it being ableto alter its intended target and I suspect that it would be more complex to construct, given the miniaturaisation.
Magegems are basic nice, but ehh, our artiller works, we need something to make up for its choke-points, either making the good ones cheaper or spotting for them.
The flavour-text for crystalworks makes no sense to me, but I am not the G.M....
Flares sound neat, but I think that we can do good-enough with a revision, or as a component of something larger.
My Vultures are not as bad as they sound. Firstly, they will win the altitude arms-race. Second, this is mostly old magic. We were modifying critters way back in 911. This is basically the same thing, just more advanced, but there is bound to have been some experts crop up in such an old field. I cannot actually find a quote where it says that it actually makes a difference how long the technology has been around for, but I am sure I heard it soemwhere... It is a gateway research into permanent and magic-immune conjuration, which is the crux of its difficulty, and I have already explained a good reason why it would work and used circuits and stuff to help justify it. We already have experience taming animals from our horses. These are summoned animals made to specifications, with the standard variance for magical chaos, taming them should not be especially difficult compared to horses, except that they are giant killing machines that can fly, which is unavoidable given the needs of the design. Finally, they are vultures, getting them to circle over enemy positions should be dead-simple by abusing narrative compulsion. I expect, at worst, a -1 from the scale, a -1 from the complexity, and a -1 from the permanence and magic immunity(which is a single 'mundanity' action that should fly because it makes a very large amount of sense, and it could potentially fail to make them antimagic immune((Owing to them being mundane in substance but completely defy all common sense...)) which would confirm the divinity theory of antimagic that the G.M. already sold-out the enemy about unless they were lying...) which would likely be spread out for maybe a couple of minus twos and a minus one. I really don't think that we can get a technology easier with anything useful in conjured animals, and we already have conjured animals, so I don't see anything else being easier. This is not nearly as impossible as it looks. If requested, I will take out the frost bit, that is legitimately tricky, but oh so thematic... and it is extremely similar to what we did with the wasps.
Giant fire-wasps are too simple, but some people don't like risks. Asside from being susceptible to antimagic, and having potential issues with altitude, they are basically superior to other flying proposals.
We have towers, we need spotting, I can't be the only one to see this, but possibly a revision? But just taller towers is a super-lame revision.
Pillar of unmagic is an old idea, but by specifically designing a national effort of antimagic on well-established magics, it should be reliable, and completely shutting down their wind would make their levitation spells much weaker and we could basically own a region with this.
Giant falcons are worthless not great. They are a new branch of magic. This is offset by the conjured life aspect of conjuration and the living plants aspect of plant magic, but it is really a new field. It is a nice field, but I think that we could et a better beasty with conjuration, and it would be easier if we first made modified plants, which ould be way useful. This is basically just regular falcons, which will have difficulty with wind and identical difficulty to train and worse combat performance. All in a package that is no more easy to achieve as my giant death-vultures, has a lower reproduction rate because we can't just conjure new memebers of the species, and while it leads to the very valuable life--magic, it does nothing to unlock all of our numerous conjuration technologies so we would be starting from scratch in finding uses for it.
Flare wands seem, erm, well I want wand-tech, so it is not terrible... the again, we have ciruits now, which is most of what wand-tech does for us. Aww, man, I was just about giving up on not voting for my own stuff, and moving onto the 1/7.5/.5 method, and then... awwww...
Homing fireballs are really really good, but I think that we could do good enough with a revision. Just manual detonation would be most of what we need, and we might be able to get the whole thing given how many fireball variations we have gone through.

Whatever.  After giving it some thought, Arstotzka's plant mages can now affect patches of plants in a diameter equal to their height and grow them up to their own height, regardless of the plants type or initial size.  All their boats are now steam ships, because it makes sense that an ordinary wooden boat cost the same with a steam engine on it.  I'm not changing their new artillery piece or nerfing Moskurgs carpets.  I'm tired of arguing. 

Wow, we are the best at whining. Thankyou! For the game, mostly... though the buffs do lend a certain zing.

[Chiefwaffles]

Sorry for the arguing, evicted.
You didn't need to do that, though; I was trying to provide proof primarily to back up my request for more fair things in the future. Changing things like this is bound to make some people upset.

Thanks, though. If it's any consolation, I'll try to be less confrontational about this kind of thing if it happens again. I originally intended to just point out something without arguing further, but I got carried away. Again, I know it's definitely hard for you to balance the complaints and opinions of both sides and try to be fair. I know I just said this in the Core thread, but again: I love Wands Race and I have you to thank for it.


EDIT: @RAM:
Summoning fully loaded shells is an extremely ambitious idea. And we'd also need to invest in anchored crystal, and that would further increase magic dependence of cannons.
Pillar of Magic is extremely ambitious. You want to cancel out a spell across an entire theatre? I have doubts that would even be something that could ever be allowed.
Falcons are most certainly not a new field. They're definitely improving in one of our lesser-known fields, but it's nota new field. Vultures, though? Again, way too ambitious. You want to replace a creature's bones with crystal, make them better in every way, give them dead men switches, and create what's definitely a new field of magic - sacrificing?

[10ebbor10]

I propose replacing the Falcons with Owls.

Owls can hunt easily at night, stopping the Moskurgian raids.

[RAM]

The question remains, can these things actually defeat keggers? The presumably have swords and arrows or something up there. If it is going to properly annhiliate them then it needs to be awesome!