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Author Topic: Wands Race - [Arstotzka] {COMPLETED}  (Read 376995 times)

Andres

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #2550 on: May 25, 2017, 03:49:05 pm »

I'm not too sure about weapons inside the ship. It's a small thing but it does add to complexity regardless. But if others think it's necessary we could definitely have the weapons inside.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Not a very complex idea. If you still have doubts, just think of it as putting the guns on the top as normal and then building a roof over it. But anyway, it's not necessary, just beneficial.

HA1s is ambitious but it'd mean we could field extra-LOS weaponry st sea. It depends on the actual size of the HA1, but I'm seeing the Crystalclad as a really big tank-like ship. Carrying one HA1 seems within the realm of possibility.
Don't think of crystalclads as really large ships. That's two or three overhauls down the line. For the first generation of crystalclads, they should just be ships we have now plus some armour plating. Going after more on the very first go is greedy and impetuous.

Like I said, the hardest part is just making a bigger boat. And that really shouldn't be hard, especially when we'll hopefully have a factory dedicated to making crystal.
This is bad thinking. Regular ships are made of wood and sailcloth. That a country has access to wood and sailcloth does not mean that making boats of significantly bigger size aren't major undertakings. It's not as simple as merely upscaling a current design, a bigger boat needs its own proper design.

Glory to Arstotzka.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2017, 03:52:30 pm by Andres »
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #2551 on: May 25, 2017, 03:58:02 pm »

We probably don't need a HA1 on the Crystalclad, I guess. If the biggest point of the design is armor then adding the capability for t to engage out of range seems unecessary.

And the problem with organizing our cannons like that is the nature of the HC1-E - it's more-so artillery and has an upwards firing arc. It also limits our firing angles. The barrel should be pointing upwards from the top deck of our ship.
We'd need a way to do that while retaining easy firing angles.

And "ships we have now + armor plating" is literally a revision. Crystalclads should be bigger and carry more weapons in addition to serious crystal armor. It may not need to carry a HA1, but right now a fog-o-War can just barely carry a HC1-E.

Basically
1.) Mostly crystal with wooden frame (with anchored crystal it wouldn't be possible, but removing the crystal would make the ship just barely seaworthy or maybe even sink)
2.) Fit >1 cannon without constantly being in danger of sinking
3.) Retai speed.

Again, literally the only innovation is the size. The point of designs is to make new things. If you just want to add armor plating you can use a revision. I'm fine with not making a modern day battleship out of the bat, but don't undershoot so much please. 
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

Andres

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #2552 on: May 25, 2017, 04:13:12 pm »

And the problem with organizing our cannons like that is the nature of the HC1-E - it's more-so artillery and has an upwards firing arc. It also limits our firing angles. The barrel should be pointing upwards from the top deck of our ship.
We'd need a way to do that while retaining easy firing angles.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Enough space for that cannon to have a 45 degree firing arc. You can't get any more long ranged than that.

And "ships we have now + armor plating" is literally a revision. Crystalclads should be bigger and carry more weapons in addition to serious crystal armor. It may not need to carry a HA1, but right now a fog-o-War can just barely carry a HC1-E.

Basically
1.) Mostly crystal with wooden frame (with anchored crystal it wouldn't be possible, but removing the crystal would make the ship just barely seaworthy or maybe even sink)
2.) Fit >1 cannon without constantly being in danger of sinking
3.) Retai speed.
I had no idea we could still only have one cannon on each ship. I thought we had more ever since we made them Expensive. Yeah, getting more cannons should definitely go into the design along with the armour.

Glory to Arstotzka.
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RAM

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #2553 on: May 25, 2017, 04:48:55 pm »

4.) A goddamn counter to Lucky Strike. (Cheaper Equalizer shell?)
Is there some sort of problem with my antiluck wards? You keep asking for this and yet I have never seen a vote for them nor heard any protest about their flaws...

Crystalworks has a few major problems.
1 The magegems are a mistake. We burn our entire reserve of A batteries and we still have to send a wizard out to recharge them. It is basically throwing away our previous turn's design for nothing. If you want a ower room you need more, like a magic accumulator or something... We could probably do that in a revision of antimagic charms to have them pass the magic into a circuit that they can't access...
2 "having one circuit summoning precise crystal designs is inefficient and wasteful." is obviously untrue. This is magic, conjuration magic, it summons specific things in specific forms. That is what makes it better than reality. You want to replace magically poofing something into being exactly as you want it, which is what we are good at, with complex mechanisms which we are bad at. Also, instead of poofing a crystal into exactly the form you want, which is actually what crystals are good at in the real world, sort of, but this reshapes crystals. Crystals are crazy strong in a whole lot of ways, but they are also brittle, like, by definition they are a very specific structure.
3 This invents a whole new field of external crystal manipulation. Apparently it is easier to bend, remove, or twist crystal than to summon, say, a precise axe-head? Crystals do not bend, crystals are very sensitive to missing bits as structural weaknesses. Crystals CAN somewhat overcome thing by being malformed, they can have new crystals growing from old ones at an angle or something. Wroked crystals of any complexity will be weaker than summoned crystals of the same form.
4 It is mechanical. I already addressed this but the whole design is ridiculously complex. The conveyors are basically impossible. Just try to imagine the practicality of designing a conveyor. It is going to slide around and fall off its morings. It is going to sag and wobble and wear out and stretch. Conveyors are advanced future-tech of dreams. And then we have these modification circuits. We have no way of intelligently activating them at just the right moment, soo they are continuously active? So the conveyor needs to precisely move over them? not going to happen. Contemporary factories produce lots of things that don't meet specifications, this factory will produce only things that do not meet specifications. Oh, and we have a random steam-engine, just because wasting magic is fun... You want this to work you need to rip out the automation or start producing magically intelligent mechanisms. A team of workers could, maybe, move crystal blocks from one modifier to another and activate it with the precision of someone who is supremely bored. The conveyor is just not going to wokrk at all. It is a single design, probably a pure research design. Unless, that is, that we want to explain exactly how to make a conveyor work with ye-olde materials.
5 It makes no sense. We are replacing one energy with another, but no explanation of how we are doing it? Extracting "natural" essence from the mundane world and then converting it into a pattern that is compatible with magic would be a design by itself, relying on a completely ew extraction discipline. We get the antiluck wards  now, then dedicate a whole design to making wards that drain the world's natural essence and direct it into crystal slabs, which can be used as tower shields or flat armour plating. THEN we can move onto somethign else. A present all we are doing is taking a chunk of crystal, which is just as much summoned as the old hunk of crystal, and replacing one type of magic with another. There is not part of that which makes them either permanet nor dispel proof.
6 It takes away the greatest advantage of conjuration. Conjuration is great because of its ability to be replaced. A crystalclad ship will be very fragile. Crystals are great at holding a shape, they will be very resistant to being penetrated, but they are prone to shattering. Our crystals are very resilient in this respect, but they are still brittle, they will crunch and chunks will fall out. Crystalclads should have plates of summoned crystals protecting them, that can be replaced when damaged. An easy task for summoned crystals, an impractical task for permanent crystals.
7 it is a redundant dead end. It only applies to crystals. The conveyor might help production if it worked(it won't). The anchoring might help other conjurations if we didn't mind preparing them in advance(wasps and smoke are not particularly portable...). The crystal manipulators might actually be useful for making crystal mecha if they were protable(they aren't) and if crystal cound be bent by them(it can't) or they could make a crystal joint rotate(but that would be telekinesis...). The crystals are already redunant with our metal bonus aside form speciality uses. If you really want this to work then go figure out how to make mithril, we can probably just stick magic into molten electrum... The crystals have advantages over metal, but metal has its own advantage. Crystals don't bend...

Even if the crystalworks worked, it would only give us one material. Crystals are good, but they have flaws. The strength and lightness is wonderful, but the brittleness will really show its flaws against heavy impacts like artillery balls. A crystalclad that can't repair itself is doomed. And these crystals are dead crystals. They are specifically more "efficient" than magically forming crystal directly, which is fortunately false because it would doom our attempts to have intelligent crystral entities that could heal themselves by being fed magic...
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #2554 on: May 25, 2017, 05:18:22 pm »

You are making an insane amount of assumptions based on your own non-canon fluff, RAM.

1.) What?

2.) It's conjuration magic, and we're industrializing it.

3.) When industrializing it, yes.

4.) Conveyors are fluff and easily possible. We already harness mechanical power. To rotate things. If Evicted isn't comfortable with that then he can say we have orphans or something move stuff from circuit to circuit.

5.) If anything, I go too much into fluff. I'm not going to provide detailed explanations of how this application of magic works.

6.) If crystal gets damaged in the field new crystal can be summoned to replace it. Sure, the new crystal is magic-dependent but it's no worse than the rest and can be replaced properly later.

7.) The conveyor isn't a central part at all. The point is we're industrializing and mass-producing crystal instead of having skilled wizards slowly summon exact pieces. I already covered a few of the many possible uses of crystal, we can revise the Crystalworks to add more features, this does not suddenly make everyone forget how to summon crystal, and to be completely honest I don't really get the second half of your point here.
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

evictedSaint

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #2555 on: May 25, 2017, 06:02:08 pm »

Theatre Commander Feedback:

Jungle
The commander here is certain they'll be able to push Moskurg back next year, with the bonus from having naval supremacy here.  Still, it'd be nice to have flying mages of our own, if you could make a falcon large enough to put a saddle on. 

Mountains
The mountains are secure, and the fortified position, full compliment of men, and cold bonus means Moskurg will have a hard time regaining their foothold.  The theatre commander is happy with our current armament, although being able to shoot down Moskurg wizards more easily would be nice.

Plains
Explosive ammo would be key here - if we could increase the effect of the HA1, we'd have a much more solid footing to fight from.  Flares are...sufficient for basic coordination, though we're losing too many apprentices from spotting duties.  Maybe one day an apprentice will live long enough to complete his 2-year tour and return to farming, but that's yet to happen.

Seas
Their carpets are a concern, but luckily they're so short-ranged they can't act on their own - and the falcons are nice at keeping them away, too.  Since we're faster than them, being able to shield our ships and increase survivability would be welcome and firmly secure our lead here.  Better communication wouldn't hurt, too.

Andres

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #2556 on: May 25, 2017, 06:24:21 pm »

That's helpful.

GM, how well can our magegems hold Streamlined Fireballs? Not Powerful Streamlined Fireballs, I mean the old version of the spell that's just as cheap but has less power.
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evictedSaint

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #2557 on: May 25, 2017, 06:27:40 pm »

Hmmm...alright, let's say an A magegem could hold enough magic to power 2 flares, if you had some circuit design that could convert the energy into a flare spell and fire it off.

How many flares is a Streamlined Fireball worth, do you think?  I'm honestly not sure, and I'd appreciate your feedback on what you think would be fair.

Andres

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #2558 on: May 25, 2017, 06:33:19 pm »

  Streamlined Fireball:  Hurls small balls of fire
  Flare:  A small, harmless fireball.
They seem pretty equivalent to me, both of them being small fireballs and all. Just that where one uses its power to cause damage, the other uses its power to shine brightly and in different colours. Same amount of power either way.

Speaking of which, do we have a more powerful Flare based on the Powerful Streamlined Fireball to create greater amounts of illumination or would that require a Revision?
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #2559 on: May 25, 2017, 06:38:46 pm »

So for revision, I'm thinking plentiful explosive ammunition as a straight-upgrade to our existing shells, a better flare (can we somehow gradually revise it to a more effective communication tool?), or Crystal Circuits. Maybe Crystalworks?
We could do Flaregems - Magegems with flare circuitry? Or we might just be better off making a radio device like the Delegator design I posted earlier. Or we could upgrade the falcons to future-proof them and make their carpets even less effective.

My vision for the nearish-future is Crystalclads and wireless communication. Crazy probably-not-that-good idea: Make mounted eagles (one mage fits on an eagle?) then make a carrier ship for them. Radios (like the Delegator) would allow for unprecedented cohesion in our squads, allowing for more independent battles and less reliance on solid bomb-able battle lines. It allows for better, less-dangerous artillery spotting and just helps a lot in general.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2017, 06:46:44 pm by Chiefwaffles »
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

Andres

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #2560 on: May 25, 2017, 06:44:19 pm »

So for revision, I'm thinking plentiful explosive ammunition as a straight-upgrade to our existing shells
You're crazy if you think we can get explosive ammunition with a Revision instead of a Design.

a better flare (can we somehow gradually revise it to a more effective communication tool?), or Crystal Circuits. Maybe Crystalworks?
Our flare is fine and needs no refinement. Many other things we have need refinement and I'm annoyed you'd consider skipping over them for flares of all things. Crystal circuits are a bad idea and crystalworks would need another Design to work no matter what, so better use our Revision for stuff it should be used for.

For our Revision we should either make the frost towers cheaper or make our gold etchings cheaper. The former gives us a bonus in all theatres of war except sea while the other makes our steam engine and cannons cheaper. Either way, it's a great deal of benefit for a Revision and they are overdue on them.

Glory to Arstotzka.
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #2561 on: May 25, 2017, 06:51:15 pm »

Crystal Circuits is literally there to make gold etchings cheaper. That's it; that's the entire point of the revision. I'm saying trying it again because if we do the fluff right, we can get a bonus. It helps if the Crystalworks goes well, since that helps in the crystal area.

I still don't think frost tower revisions are a good idea. Maybe a design to make an "ultimate" frost tower kind of like the meteor design I had earlier, but even then. The idea of at flare revision is pretty simple - improve our communication without having to use a design on a new method of communication that probably won't even work at first. If we could find a way to make our Flares better - less dangerous, more precise, less obvious for Moskurg, etc., then we could use a revision to do that instead of a design on a radio-like device.
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

Andres

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #2562 on: May 25, 2017, 06:58:24 pm »

Crystal Circuits is literally there to make gold etchings cheaper. That's it; that's the entire point of the revision. I'm saying trying it again because if we do the fluff right, we can get a bonus.
It doesn't matter what the crystal circuits are supposed to do, we know for a fact that they are a poor choice for them. Let's just go for the Revision with nothing more than "make them cheaper". We get no bonus but it's better than stumbling around in the dark or worse, doing something that has been explicitly stated not to work.

I still don't think frost tower revisions are a good idea. Maybe a design to make an "ultimate" frost tower kind of like the meteor design I had earlier, but even then.
Getting twice the amount of frost towers creates twice as much cold. That is a great advantage for just a Revision. Can we please, please just try it? This is exactly like the MC16 back in Arms Race at this point. It was a long time before it was made cheap because a large amount of dumb people thought it wouldn't do anything. (I say they're dumb and not merely wrong because making them Cheap with an Expense Credit gave us a significant advantage but they continued to believe making it permanently Cheap wouldn't do anything.)

The frost towers are a great design and would give us a significant advantage if they were cheaper. It was true the last time they were made cheaper and it'll be true this time too.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2017, 07:00:19 pm by Andres »
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evictedSaint

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #2563 on: May 25, 2017, 06:59:49 pm »

Play nice, guys.

Andres

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #2564 on: May 25, 2017, 07:02:40 pm »

Just to be clear, I'm not calling you dumb, Chiefwaffles, I'm just saying you're very wrong and that you're creating a repetition of history.
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