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Author Topic: Wands Race - [Arstotzka] {COMPLETED}  (Read 376947 times)

Kadzar

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3690 on: July 07, 2017, 03:07:41 pm »

Quote
2 - HA1-b "Mundane": Voidslayer, Draignean
2 - Aethergem Fitting: Chiefwaffles, Kadzar
0 - Aethergem Shells:
0 - Academy Aethergems:
0 - Temporary Wizards:
0 - Weightite works:
0 - Gemerators:
1 - Magegem Capacity Upgrade: Andres

0 Save the credit:
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evictedSaint

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3691 on: July 07, 2017, 03:12:58 pm »

Revision: Better Magegems [3+1]

Sticking with the A-levels, a AAA battery should be able to power a couple flares.  An AA battery should be able to power a SPSF-C all by itself, and an A battery should be able to power a regular PSF-C.  Three A batteries can power a single PSF in all its glory.


It takes 3 A-level Aethergems to power a single firing of an HA1, fyi.

RAM

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3692 on: July 07, 2017, 03:17:09 pm »

Thankyou for the commentary, but I have a legitimate problem. I am poor at reading people so I have to consider all possibilities.
1: Chiefwaffles honestly believes this stuff: I honestly wish to help them.
2: Chiefwaffles is actually correct: I would dearly like an explanation that I could learn from rather than just endless insults.
3: Chiefwaffles is a troll or sociopath who is trying to harm others for fun or basically murder people in order to benefit their own standing: I legitimately need to defend myself and should help others.
Now my main problem is that regardless of which or how many of these are true, the effects of 3 are active. The number of times that I have been accused of being completely unreliable recently is staggering. It is a very insidious piece of social manipulation and sadly it is entirely possible to perform it out of habit without realise what you are doing. Fortunately, if people jut recognise that it is happening then the effects largely vanish. If people were willing to acknowledge that my assessments were largely accurate(for example: that my assessment of the Aethergems as potentially not providing effective rate-of-fire as-is and potentially being incompatible with existing magem functionality were legitimate concerns. As opposed to being so "baseless", even as mere speculation, that it needed to be said three times in quick succession. And that we could reasonable expect to have been better off with gemerators and magem charging stations.) then I would be free to drop the issue. But people make it evident by continuing to vote for these things that they do not appreciate that my observation of potential flaws in designs is frequently accurate and that efforts would be better spent reviewing the design than telling everyone that I am basing everything that I say on fantasy that they actually think when I say things such as "we actually have experience with conjuring animals, awesome vultures are practical, while all we have with domestication is horses and that isn't even mentioned in the design, so taming wild hawks would actually be more difficult even though the vultures are more impressive." that they honestly believe that I am basing my assessments on pure fantasy. I am trying to make our designs better, and I am being slandered for it. This is legitimately a source of potential harm to me and others. And it is only "potential" in the sense that people might not actually believe it, if people actually act upon it than the harm is real. People had literally died from less...

Temporary wizards ought to work as a way to integrate aethergems, as wizards can charge devices. But the powder-room idea seems like fun, so lts go with that!
Quote
2 HA1-b "Mundane": Voidslayer, Draignean
2 Aethergem Fitting: Chiefwaffles, Kadzar
0 Aethergem Shells:
0 Academy Aethergems:
0 Temporary Wizards:
0 Weightite works:
0 Gemerators:
1 Magegem Capacity Upgrade: Andres
1 Aethergem recharging pack: RAM

0 Save the credit:
1 Buy Chief and RAM a room so they can hatefuck and get it out of their system: Draignean
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Draignean

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3693 on: July 07, 2017, 03:21:18 pm »

So what if, instead of fixed Aethergems the HA1-b used a removable rack of gems.  They could have 3-4 racks recharging between shots, which would allow the thing to fire once every 2 minutes or so.

Also what about Lunar as the cannon name?

Well, I suggested sublunary since it's an old word that means non-extraordinary, but sounds cooler than mundane.

So what if, instead of fixed Aethergems the HA1-b used a removable rack of gems.  They could have 3-4 racks recharging between shots, which would allow the thing to fire once every 2 minutes or so.

Magi-tech single action revolver. Each cylinder contains multiple racks of aethergems, cannon operators rotate the cylinder in the act of replacing the next shell so that the active rack is kept in motion

Hmm, though now that I'm thinking about it, it might make more sense to make a static array with a central cluster of mage gems fed by a radial block of aethergem assemblies...


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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3694 on: July 07, 2017, 03:24:39 pm »

Aaand it's Magegems all over again.
So basically we have to spend more revisions on the Aethergems (that rolled a 6 on effectiveness!) before they're actually useful.

Ugh.
Revision: Better Aethergems

We increase the charge rate and capacity of Aethergems. The priority is capacity, but we believe that we can use an increase in capacity can be taken advantage of. It's similar to, well, a bottleneck. You increase the size of an opening to a container and the rate at which you can pour things into or out of that container can greatly increase.

We aim to get Aethergems (and by extension, Magegems) to be able to hold energy equivalent to the next level up. AA+ can hold A worth of energy, etc.; and ideally for the recharge rates to be enough so that the time to completely charge an Aethergem is equivalent to or greater than the time it took to charge one before this revision.

This shouldn't be difficult thanks to the Crystalworks Mk.2, which we can use to take advantage of much more precise gem structures in the Crystal Glass gems instead of the more kludge-y Crystalworks Mk. 1 that was use for the better Magegems.
Quote
2 - HA1-b "Mundane": Voidslayer, Draignean
2 - Aethergem Fitting: Chiefwaffles, Kadzar
0 - Aethergem Shells:
0 - Academy Aethergems:
0 - Temporary Wizards:
0 - Weightite works:
0 - Gemerators:
1 - Magegem Capacity Upgrade: Andres
1 - Aethergem recharging pack: RAM
1 - Better Aethergems: Chiefwaffles

0 Save the credit:


Alternatively, we can have a dedicated HA1 revision (kind of like Void's one), except the revision is doing two things:
1.) Increase power consumption efficiency of the HA1 (main part of revision)
2.) Fit in Aethergems (easy)
Or we could just go "screw it" with the HA1 and make a Very Expensive variant powered by current Aethergems, without doing anything else, but that feels like wasting a revision.

And Aethergem Fitting is still viable, just not for the HA1. Which is disappointing. But if people still like it they can vote for it.


@RAM: Jesus, RAM. Please stop. Seriously.
Also, please stop removing the dashes from the vote quote.
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

evictedSaint

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3695 on: July 07, 2017, 03:33:27 pm »

Guys, play nice.  You're on the same team and closer to winning than either side has been for the past 30 years. 

FallacyofUrist

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3696 on: July 07, 2017, 05:06:13 pm »

Duststorm Equalizer:
Why not make an Equalizer variant that jams weather? This version of the Equalizer is one, cheaper for using our new Crystalworks MK 2, and two, works in a slightly different manner: instead of using anti-magic crystals or gems or whatever we're using currently, it uses very small versions of them, and comes apart in mid-air after being fired. When fired into the magically effected clouds, it spreads low-power anti-magic through the weather, disabling Moskurg's control over it, or hampering it at least.

Quote
2 - HA1-b "Mundane": Voidslayer, Draignean
2 - Aethergem Fitting: Chiefwaffles, Kadzar
0 - Aethergem Shells:
0 - Academy Aethergems:
0 - Temporary Wizards:
0 - Weightite works:
0 - Gemerators:
1 - Magegem Capacity Upgrade: Andres
1 - Aethergem recharging pack: RAM
1 - Better Aethergems: Chiefwaffles
1 - Duststorm Equalizer: FallacyofUrist

0 Save the credit:
By the way, how do you link to a single post? That is one area where my forum-fu is lacking...

I would like to note I'm not entirely opposed to an aethergems revision, I would just like to do a practical revision first so we gain a combat advantage, and if the attempt to gain a combat advantage fails, we can revise that too.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2017, 05:08:49 pm by FallacyofUrist »
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3697 on: July 07, 2017, 05:10:48 pm »

The way I do it is to get the link in a post's subject line. Like the "Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]" subject line.
That link directs you to the exact post. So I make a post, get its link from the subject, then edit in the link.

And personally I'd think we'd be better off with mundane versions of an anti-weather thing.
Also no to hard counters!

We started winning when we invested in artillery, not by hard countering Moskurg's weather stuff. Moskurg started winning once when they invested into air stuff, not when they hard countered our artillery! And even when they tried hard countering our artillery, they still lost!


Semi-ninja edit: I changed Aethergem Fitting so with the HA1 the goal is to just use AA Aethergems to assist in firing, reducing the apprentice requirement to 2 instead of 3. I think that's reasonable for now.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2017, 05:12:36 pm by Chiefwaffles »
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

VoidSlayer

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3698 on: July 07, 2017, 05:12:46 pm »

Would gaint fortified mushroom forts we can summon at the front lines be a hard counter?  I have these guys growing in the second bio dome and need to know if I should clear them out or not.

Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3699 on: July 07, 2017, 05:14:53 pm »

I wouldn't say that's a hard counter. More of a soft counter.
To me, at least, a hard counter is basically what I said earlier. Like this:

Quote
Moskurg: I use my wind attack!
Arstotzka: Nuh-uh! I have an invisible shield that makes me immune against wind attacks!


But if we're investing in fortifications, designing a living crystal wall or portable crystal fabricators would be the best way to go, in my opinion. Both techniques allow for very quick construction of really strong fortifications.
Or we could invest in the Protector. Which is a moving fortification!
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

VoidSlayer

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3700 on: July 07, 2017, 05:19:22 pm »

I wouldn't say that's a hard counter. More of a soft counter.
To me, at least, a hard counter is basically what I said earlier. Like this:

Quote
Moskurg: I use my wind attack!
Arstotzka: Nuh-uh! I have an invisible shield that makes me immune against wind attacks!


But if we're investing in fortifications, designing a living crystal wall or portable crystal fabricators would be the best way to go, in my opinion. Both techniques allow for very quick construction of really strong fortifications.
Or we could invest in the Protector. Which is a moving fortification!

The idea is a fungus that can grow and spread under ground and then we use dogwood wands to incite sudden growth of hardened mushrooms wherever we need protection, probably fire resistant and such.  It would allow us to create sudden fortifications anywhere we need them with the only tool we need a simple wooden wand wielded by an apprentice.

FallacyofUrist

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3701 on: July 07, 2017, 05:32:48 pm »

Future Design: Mycelium Bombs:

We've combined our expertise with explosives and plant magic to create the Mycelium Bomb. One of our agents will infiltrate Moskurg, go to one of their farms there, and then use one of these bombs to render the farm useless. Here's how it works.

Basically, it's a bomb packed with spores and life magic. When it explodes, the spores get everywhere on the farm and the life magic causes the spores to instantly form a large amount of mycelium and a few mushrooms, rendering it impossible for the crops to survive. Furthermore, the field its exploded on will have problems supporting any crops forevermore until Moskurg clears out the mycelium... a difficult task.

The end result is less food for Moskurg, decreasing morale and lowering the number of troops they can field.

It also works as a grenade.

Seriously, we should do grenades, it would be so easy.
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3702 on: July 07, 2017, 05:36:35 pm »

Well, that's one way, but it's definitely not a revision. But with living crystal, we simply use our experience with Dogwood + our extreme experience with Crystal to super-quickly grow extremely strong crystal fortifications. Though this is also a design.

Well, actually.
Revision: Growing Crystal
We already know easily how to make crystal grow - we have regenerative crystal. But we have a better idea.

We can connect a bit of tweaked regenerative crystal to an AA Aethergem. Then, put a capacitive button on the Aethergem connecting the crystal to the power of the Aethergem. Once this happens, the crystal will start rapidly growing in the form of a wall. The wall's slightly curved to allow for protection from air attacks and higher-angled frontal attacks as well.

Our soldiers can simply press the button and throw the device down for quick fortification, wherever they are!

We have extreme experience with creating crystal to exact specifications. We already have the exact knowledge on how to make crystal grow. We have the Aethergem. This revision is merely connecting the dots.


@Fallacy:
Two problems with Mycelium Bomb:
1.) Evicted does not like espionage. This seems like the main function of the bomb would qualify as espionage?
2.) A grenade would probably be better served by just revising our Blastshell into one (or using an order like pathetic Moskurg), but we don't really need another offensive advantage in infantry combat right now and we can't use grenades with air units like Moskurg does.
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

RAM

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3703 on: July 07, 2017, 05:47:27 pm »

We can probably get mages to absorb energy from aethergems and put it into magems with an order, but I would rather not risk it, exploding wizards are bad. So I am against the upgrades to magems and aethergems while we do not actually have a means of getting power from one to the other. We could try shrinking the aethergems to fit in the magem sockets, but getting the same capacity seems unlikely, so it may not produce a large enough burst of power for a single use in some of our more power-hungry devices. So, again, seems like a bad idea. This, of course, also applies to the gemerator revision, but at least that focuses the upgrade on where we really need it for future designs.

The recharging pack gets us the armour we need for our powder rooms and gets power from the generators into devices, so it is a good idea if we want to salvage the design. I mean, we could have done gemerators and the charging circuit ought to have been simple enough to just be a piece of the design, getting power to flow from a source to a destination is sort of what circuits do, and thus actually had a working design, but the recharging pack gets us a nice full-revision's worth of armoured recharging-station bliss all ready for standardised field deployment rather than just some crude crystal platform with bare circuitry or something.

Ugh, really? The hard counter thing again?
Protector is a good example of a hard-counter to artillery that failed. It is too slow to catch the artillery so it just plods along however long it takes to break down. Breaking down isn't what ruins them, plenty of them don't break down, they just don't achieve their role of getting things to the battlefield because much of the battlefield moves faster than they do.
Crystal layering is an example of a hard-counter to lightning that may or may not work. If the idea of "their lightning spells, which they have spent many designs on, suddenly have no effect on any of the forces that we send into its influence" is not a hard counter than I don't know what is.
Antimagic charms are a hard-counter to mind-reading that was very expensive but had a lot of potential. It worked, it still works.
Antimagic fields are a hard-counter to then entire school of conjuration that works just fine so long as they don't need magic to avoid terminal velocity. We managed to counter it with a full design, and only for a single field of conjuration. Webs, caltrops, wasps, and fog are all still basically useless against their ground forces. And also useless against their air forces too, which reflects that their air forces are a hard counter to all our hand-to-hand weapons. Basically everything short ranged, and our contact-explosives.
Their artillery was a hard-counter to our entire army. We didn't recover from that. Protectors are an attempt, but are basically insignificant. More to the point, they would be more than a single revision spent countering the enemy's hard counter. Does anyone else actually remember what happened when artillery first appeared? They sent enough spears into our ranks to half our effective numbers. I still kind of suspect that they invented flechette cluster munitions along with the design. We never broke that hard-counter, we just matched it with some theoretical stuff we had been working on.
Adamantine is a hard counter to fireballs and frost towers. It is VERY difficult to describe frost towers and fireballs as not being worth it. How, precisely, are we to counter adamantine's thermal immunity with a revision? If it has any chance of working I will probably vote for it. Now, normally that would be a pretty big "if" but I have seen the G.M. pull some amazing backflips in order to get our stuff to work regardless of how messed up the proposal is, so I am finally willing to ease up a little on complete nonsense that remains nonsensical in the context of magic. I will just accept that the design is about intent, rather than method. Even though coming up with magical methods seems like more fun and ought to get us bonuses...

Hard counters worked. They required more than a revision to annul, and can have loads of side-benefits that make them worth it even if the counter is countered. We have a long history of being messed up by hard counters and even used a few, and are actively pursuing more. "hard counters don't work" is not a valid statement and is not held by any of the people advocating it. "Hard counters are not fun" may well be true, but doesn't seem to have much traction...

living crystal wall or portable crystal fabricators would be the best way to go, in my opinion.
Can I count on your vote? I suppose it would need to be updated a bit, maybe...
Communual spell: The living wall!
Blah blah blah: we mathemagically analyse fire wasp spell and extract the "life" and add it to a crystal wall.
Make attuned gems, let's say, emeralds, they all focus on the same spell and store magic for it.
Lots of wizards wielding gems, all likewise attuned, can all contribute to the same spell.
The spell is alive, it is a wall, it is crystal. 10 centimetres of steel should stop anything they care to throw at us, and the wall is alive, it gets thicker if it needs to and thinner if it can to save energy.
The wall is alive, it is perfectly capable of analysing attempts to dispel it and fighting against it as only a being formed of living and aware magic can. If it loses the fight, it just moulds itself around the antimagic and covers other places, or protects against attacks from above, or even grabs its own casters and places them out of the antimagic field.

Old magic: Summon living thing, channel a spell through a gem, mass-crystal summoning(caltrops and a wall that can 'move' by destroying itself at one point and creating itself at another sol ong as it maintains a single mass are pretty similar, but seriously, we have SO MUCH crystal expertise it isn't even sad anymore.).
New magic: Multiple people collaborating on one spell, dynamic crystal forms, maybe, not rally though, that stuff is old..., living 'magic': we have the magic wasps, which are alive, and made out of magic, but, I guess this is another step into meta so give that some acknowledgement I suppose...

If it works we can use if for ship armour.
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evictedSaint

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3704 on: July 07, 2017, 05:51:14 pm »

Now, normally that would be a pretty big "if" but I have seen the G.M. pull some amazing backflips in order to get our stuff to work regardless of how messed up the proposal is

Daaaw :D
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