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Author Topic: Wands Race - [Arstotzka] {COMPLETED}  (Read 376968 times)

RAM

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3900 on: July 15, 2017, 10:35:57 pm »

I believe that we only haveone expense credit. The other was a bonus to an expense roll, which I believe we expended on the F43 Incriminator.

If we are not bound by the limits of technology, why are we trying to build a rocket-plane when we ought to be making the sky fall?

Saying that it is only due to familiarity shows either extreme lack of understanding or outright falsehood. I made extensive descriptions, overextensive descriptions, of why, specifically, it is better to have generators and capacitors separated. I even proposed the magical alternative, that of a device that just works. The array is neither of these things. It is just bad. If you want a universal power supply then just call it a universal power supply, power it with living magic, and have a custom-built ethereal mage controlling every one of our devices with exactly the magical potency to get it to run. Aethergems are horribly inefficient not because it would be so in a familiar setting, but because they are described as functioning that way. The ratio of generation to storage is fixed, that is why real-world devices would be horribly inefficient if they worked that way, that is why magical devices are horribly inefficient if they do work that way. You wend up with either way too much generation or way too much storage and horrible horrible inefficiency which results in aircraft that are too fat to leave the ground. If I were fixed to the familiar then I would say that batteries and capacitors should be different things and pushing for increases in our magical transfer efficiency by using a new capacitor device and increases in our storage by using a new battery device. I am perfectly happy to have the universal battery/capacitor device because it makes sense and is useful even though it would be nearly impossible in real life. I oppose the universal generator/storage device because it is horrifically inefficient no matter how you slice it. If you want something better than you are going to have to veer away from your mundane familiar physical power packs and go into something truly magical.

Generator+storage is not complex. It is literally just two things, with some cabling. As opposed to one thing and some cabling. Instead of saying "what precise combination of aethergems and magems will get us the precise ratio of generation to storage that we need for this appliance" we can just say "this gun needs 30 units of magic in order to fire, put three AA magems behind each gun. The ship needs to fire 100 times per minute to keep their carpet formations at bay, So we'll be needing a banks of gemerators totalling 300 units.". Splitting them up is much simpler because it splits up the considerations. You end up with two extremely simple equations instead of one complicated one.

I have proven "objectively superior". You want convenience that would only exist at the lowest level and could easily be obviated at the cost of complexity in every level of operation. Gemerators are simpler, more effective, more stable, more thoroughly explained, more efficient, cheaper, not relying upon rather dubious interpretations of established lore that are not even mentioned in the design draft, and more convenient. The only reason I can see that you would have suggested the array is that you can't give up the idea of the universal power pod which, as I have pointed out, is a mistake.

The only scenario in which the universal power pod would seem to be an advantage is in small, personal devices. A rifle could have an integrated battery and switch the source into it or into a different device easily. or we could have a charging device, slip the battery out of the charger and into the gun for rapid recharging. You can't afford to have enough power to fire the gun 100 times per minute integrated into the gun, nor enough power to fire 100 times without weight the thing down horribly. But you can have a separate charging station and it is easier to only swap the storage than to swap the source and storage both when you are not even using the storage. If you really want a gun that fires constantly then you only need tiny storage ability compared to the massive magical source that will be required to keep it going perpetually. One gun wants to fire 20 times on a single replacement in the span of ten seconds, pure storage is better, the other only needs enough storage for a single shot, just one shot! but it needs to recharge that shot in a sixth of a second, Aethergems are monstrously horrifically disastrous for that job, for both jobs. You want a "you have two U.P.P.s so you can have two of your six devices functioning at once" which would be fine if we were going out camping, but the merciless lack of efficiency is simply inexcusable for a military endeavour where we are competing constantly. If we want a clip or magazine then we want the best storage to get the most power through the system from the smallest package. If we want to run a heater then all we need is a generator. Aethergems are objectively inferior. Find any scenario in which they perform better...
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3901 on: July 15, 2017, 10:41:24 pm »

Nope. We have two expense credits in addition to the expense roll bonus.
Both nations decide to seize the Traders assets this year.  His sudden appearance and reluctance to speak is suspicious enough, as well as the familiar boat from the trader from years past.  Neither side has any trouble capturing him and his crew, and they've been put in both sides respective dungeons.  Interrogation will prove what his intentions were soon enough.  His ship was, as he said, full up enough with various treasures to give both sides an Expense Credit this year.

...

In accordance with Arstotzkans Scholarship, all non-drafted apprentices who serve for at least two years after being educated at Arstotzkas Academy for Adequate Apprenticeship are free to retire from active duty.  Though the number of apprentices who either survive that long or choose to retire rather than attain a Wizard-level ranking is quite small, enough have trickled back into society over the past few years to be noticeable.  Most are crippled in some way, but those who still have hands prove to be quite capable farmers with Dogwood Wands.  It took quite a while to see the return on investment, but the increase in crop harvest is enough to earn Arstotzka an additional Expense Credit this year.


And saying "objectively" more does not change anything, RAM.
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

VoidSlayer

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3902 on: July 15, 2017, 10:44:20 pm »

Why are we making aircraft at all when we can make dragons?

RAM

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3903 on: July 15, 2017, 11:27:53 pm »

Nope. We have two expense credits in addition to the expense roll bonus.
Oh, thankyou, my mistake, I missed one of them.
And saying "objectively" more does not change anything, RAM.
And making unjustified statement doesn't either. It is the reams of reasons that makes my statement accurate.
Why are we making aircraft at all when we can make dragons?
For the same reason that we trained hawks when we could have summoned murderous death vultures.

Cast-off Crystal Cannon-bullets
C.C.C.s review an old contrivance. The anchored summons. We revise the anchoring process to achieve two things:
 Firstly, to allow the anchor to operate at a range. A few metres is plenty.
 Second, to permit many small objects to be bound to the one gem. But this is just a matter of convenience, and can be skipped if difficulties arise.
 The execution is simple. A thin iron bullet is fashioned in the shape of merely the core of a normal bullet, and then a crystal is summoned around it and anchored to a gem for long-term storage and transport. The bullet, of standard dimensions, is loaded and fired as normal, and the crystal exterior vanishes as it leave proximity of its anchoring gem and the bond sustaining it is broken.

The results are also quite simple. The light crystal seals the chamber and barrel, allowing the bullet to absorb the full force of the blast, and then vanishes, taking the minority of the total force imparted to the bullet with it. The much smaller, longer iron bullet is moving faster, due to the relatively low weight of the total shell compared to standard bullets, and its long draft makes it less prone to being slowed by its passage through the air. It is, however, just as forceful as a larger bullet when compared to the size of the hole it has to make in order to pass through something. The end result is a projectile that has less total power than conventional, but is faster and more concentrated, resulting in better penetration and range.
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helmacon

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3904 on: July 15, 2017, 11:36:39 pm »

+1 for C.C.C.s
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3905 on: July 16, 2017, 12:21:53 am »

Quote from: Discord
Chiefwaffles - Today at 4:08 PM
@evictedSaint A question for when you're on - If we upgrade Aethergems, the F43 will receive the benefits immediately like how the Blastshells did with better magegems, right?

...

evictedSaint - Today at 10:13 PM
@Chiefwaffles yes, upgraded aethergems affect existing weapons already using them, within reason.
Although I feel the need to point out that the limiting factor is recharge rate, not expense

evictedSaint - Today at 10:15 PM
Replacing the AAAethergems on the F43 with Aethergems still means tou need 2400 to fire 4 times a second

Just mirroring this from discord.
And if anyone doesn't understand the last part, evicted's saying that as the limiting factor is the charge rate, having cheaper Aethergems doesn't help as all Aethergem sizes share the same charge rate.

Which means that using an Expense Credit on Aethergems probably wouldn't help the F43. Though I am wondering if we get smaller AAA Aethergems if we do use the E-Credit on them meaning we can replace the AAAethergems on the F43 with smaller and lighter ones with the same charge rate+capacity.
It's understandably unlikely, but it's a possibility.
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

FallacyofUrist

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3906 on: July 16, 2017, 10:50:10 am »

Why not just improve our Magegems and use them as batteries as normal to fuel the F43?

I mean, it won't be indefinite flight, but it doesn't need to be, and that method means we can actually improve the F43 with an Expense Credit on Magegems.
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evictedSaint

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3907 on: July 16, 2017, 01:26:07 pm »

Seems like "Better Aethergems" are winning.  I'll roll in an hour or so, unless that changes.

RAM

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3908 on: July 16, 2017, 03:34:08 pm »

Quote
Revisions:
3 - Better Aethergems: Chiefwaffles, Andrea, Kadzar
1 Gemerators: RAM
1 invisible crystals: RAM
1 - Penetrator rounds (whenever someone posts an appropriate revision for them): Helmacon
lots Weightite Works: RAM, RAM, RAM, RAM, eggs, and RAM.
2 - Aethergem Array: Andres, Chiefwaffles
2 - C.C.C. shells: RAM, Helmacon

Orders:
3 - Do not reveal the F43 in the next battle report: Andres, Helmacon, Kadzar
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3909 on: July 16, 2017, 04:22:36 pm »

I definitely think we should use an expense credit on Magegems.

Immediate benefits:
- Cheap +R/E Blastshells!! (Really useful because of their artillery counter)
- Cheap +2R or +2E Blastshells?
- Expensive +2R/1E or +2E/1R Blastshells??
- Cheap AS-R1? (Maybe - AS-R1 should have been covered by Crystalworks Mk. 2 and if it was, then having Cheap ammo means no Mundane bottlenecks)
- Reducing expense of Aethergems? Since they use Magegems and the only difference between AGem sizes is their MGem size. So we should get cheaper AGems. Hopefully.
- More potential for future tech.


Dunno about the second one. We should probably save it.
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

evictedSaint

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3910 on: July 16, 2017, 04:36:36 pm »

Revision: Better Aethergems [3]

We fine-tune the Aethergem setup to summon magical energy from the aether (we think) by refining the frequencies or something.

Aethergems (capacitance equal to 10 AAAethergems) recharge fully every 3 minutes.
AAethergems (capacitance equal to 5 AAAethergems) recharge fully every 2 minutes.
AAAethergems (capacitance equal to 1 AAAethergem) recharge fully every 30 seconds.

This means that Aethergems now recharge slightly faster than the lower-quality gems.

Additionally, we discover we can affix two charging modules to a single gem for an increased price cost of +1 Expense (and a very minor weight increase) to double the charge speed, though this seems to cause some problems with the longevity of the gem.  Gems that are double-charged seem to "wear down" over multiple charging/discharging cycles.

For free, we upgrade the AAAethergems in the F43 to this newer variant and cut the required gems down to 1,200.  This decreases the weight of the craft, but it still suffers from stability, control, and vibration issues and is still unusable at the moment.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 04:54:54 pm by evictedSaint »
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3911 on: July 16, 2017, 04:50:07 pm »

Well.

Use Expense Credit 1 on Magegems

Here's what we intend for it to do. This list of course isn't definite, and it's of course ultimately up to evicted.
  • Make Blastshell+R/E Cheap.
  • Double-charge +R and +E Blastshells to double the effects of each while remaining cheap (We would be able to afford better Magegems and thus have more power for more Blastballs).
  • Increase power of +R/E Blastshells for the HA1. (Either doing a +1.5R/+1.5 E or +2R/1E and +1R/+2E or something like that. We would be able to afford better Magegems = more space for Blastballs)
  • Cheap AS-R1s (AS-R1 should be Cheap because of Crystalworks, but it was never brought up. Therefore having Cheap AA gems should allow for universally Cheap AS-R1s)
  • Increase capacity of Aethergems (So we can use better Magegems when making Aethergems for the same price. So an A Magegem can be used to make an AAethergem instead of AA Magegem/AA Aethergem, etc.).
  • (EDIT) Make the Mundane not useless? If the above point goes through, then the Mundane should be able to use AAethergems instead of Aethergems to power its SPF-C, and should thus become Expensive down from Very Expensive.
I decided not to include the +2R/1E or +2E/1R Blastshell since that's probably overdoing it and we'd probably come into size issues.

Quote
Expense Credit 1
1 - Magegems: Chiefwaffles

Expense Credit 2
1 - Save the credit: Chiefwaffles

Orders
4 - Do not reveal the F43 in the next battle report: Andres, Helmacon, Kadzar, Chiefwaffles


EDIT: I've made a design for a potential F44. The idea is to basically focus on making a better KPD (and also 20mm turret), so it's much more energy efficient and uses the cushion-like "pushing" instead of literally propelling via explosions.
Should actually be easy, and I mean it this time. It's basically just "try again on the F43", which should get a decent amount of bonus modifiers.

Lemme know if anyone has ideas for a different type of aircraft, 'cause I'd love to type it out.

Future(ish) Design: ASAF-F44

The KPD is a good start, but is lacking. That is why the main focus in this design is the KPD Mk. 2, an incremental improvement of its predecessor. The rest of the F44 is an incremental but serious improvement to the F43. The F43 was a prototype - a proof of concept. The F44 is the real deal.

Spoiler: Fluff (click to show/hide)

Generally speaking, the F44 is intended to be similar to the F43 in aspects not mentioned below.
KPD Mark 2 - "Fix" the KPD to be like how it was envisioned - "pushing" the craft via direct and precise applications of kinetic energy, allowing UFO-like movement of equal (+fast) speed in any direction. Intended side-effect is that this is much more energy efficient because of the precise usage of energy instead of wasting it in unfocused explosions like the F43.
Ball Turret/20mm Upgrade - Upgrade the ball turret to have mechanical controls from the inside and to house a 20mm gun based off of the AS-HAC-1 for armor piercing while retaining high muzzle velocity.
Linkgems - Very low priority feature. We just take the "magic -> sound" aspect of anti-magic gems and apply it to an AAA Magegem. Then we connect the Magegem to another AAA Magegem via crystal wire, where the sound-turned-magic turns back into sound. The result is basically just a fancy can telephone, allowing people on the ends of either linked Linkgem to talk to each other.
Reactor - We have a low-enough number of Aethergems that we can just put them in an armored chamber called the Reactor. Armor is a bit more than the Cockpit/Ball turret, able to tank numerous Ballistae bolts without signs of damage. But as long as armor is enough so they can't easily trigger a detonation by attacking the reactor, it's fine. Reactor should roughly be size of cockpit (which can hold the pilot + controls + essential items).
Structure - Very roughly like an arrowhead. Cockpit at front connected to the Reactor connected to the Ball Turret.

TL;DR: A refined version of the F44, with lower magic consumption, a much better KPD, and some miscellaneous mild neat features.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 07:28:52 pm by Chiefwaffles »
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

andrea

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3912 on: July 16, 2017, 05:26:07 pm »


Quote
Expense Credit 1
2 - Magegems: Chiefwaffles, Andrea

Expense Credit 2
2 - Save the credit: Chiefwaffles, Andrea

Orders
4 - Do not reveal the F43 in the next battle report: Andres, Helmacon, Kadzar, Chiefwaffles

RAM

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3913 on: July 16, 2017, 05:29:03 pm »

Use Expense Credit 1 on Magegems

Here's what we intend for it to do. This list of course isn't definite, and it's of course ultimately up to evicted.
  • Make Blastshell+R/E Cheap.
  • Double-charge +R and +E Blastshells to double the effects of each while remaining cheap? (Next tier of Magegems can have enough power for 2x [or more?] Blastballs instead of 1).
  • Cheap AS-R1s? (AS-R1 should be Cheap because of Crystalworks, but it was never brought up. If this is true, then having Cheap AA gems should allow for universally Cheap AS-R1s).
  • Increase capacity of Aethergems? (So we can use better Magegems when making Aethegems for the same price. So an A Magegem can be used to make an AAethergem instead of AA Magegem/AA Aethergem, etc.).
1 and 2 seem useful.
3 seems pointless, the small-arms really don't seem to matter enough for this to change anything.
4: No. The volume and charging ability are the main issues. This would produce a worse product by increasing the volume without increasing the generation ability.
Also, this is all speculation that there are no other factors included in the cost. Not that I have any reason to believe that such factors exist, but it would be best to review the designs more thoroughly before assuming that they will become cheaper based solely on a single component becoming cheaper.

Personally, my vote is to save the expenses, both of them, until we have something worthwhile. I REALLY want to get dedicated generators before spending an expense on our magic generation. Maybe we should upgrade the academy and throw both expenses onto our higher-grade wizards?
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3914 on: July 16, 2017, 05:34:42 pm »

What?

RAM, this isn't a revision. I'm just stating what I believe are the natural benefits of using an expense credit on Magegems. There isn't any complexity or ambition here. It's just what should automatically happen when we upgrade the Magegems. If something is reasonable within the lines of automatic retrofitting as a consequence of the expense credit, then it should be in.


A Cheap AS-R1 means every single soldier in our army gets one. That's great. The AS-R1 may not replace the sword just yet, but every single soldier in our army having even a single shot in advance at approaching enemies or aerial foes is a huge advantage.

And we're not sacrificing anything by getting better Aethergems. Better capacity is good. We're not using a revision to do it. We're not sacrificing any other aspect to do it. With better Magegems means better Aethergems. It's that simple.
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!
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