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Author Topic: Wands Race - [Arstotzka] {COMPLETED}  (Read 377013 times)

andrea

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #4140 on: August 09, 2017, 05:25:25 pm »

the lightning is actually quite fast, it only has low acceleration. And I don't think they are getting blown out of the sky.

Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #4141 on: August 09, 2017, 05:29:35 pm »

The wind just makes it hard to quickly deploy Lightnings and keep them in formation.
And yeah; fast but low acceleration. But you couuuld fix that with the KPD4!

Quote
REVISION
1 - Crystal Ammunition Fabrication(summoned crystal bullets for automatic weaponry): Chiefwaffles
1 - KPD4(Greatly improve acceleration and ability of Lightning): Chiefwaffles
0 - Weightite Works(Summon Very Heavy material):
0 - Large Mundane-Nests of Power(combine reactors with mundanes):
0 - Small reactors(reactors for infantry):
2 - Lucky Strike(figure out the foreign spell): RAM, Voidslayer
0 - Blastshell - Extreme Range (ER)(better propellants in lighter rockets): 
1 - Train-Deployed F45: FallacyofUrist

EXPENSE CREDIT:
1 - Spare Expense Credit: Chiefwaffles
1 - Use on Lightning: Fallacyofurist

Vote for CAF instead! We'd finally get automatic weapons!
Though I'd prefer the KPD4 but I don't think people are going to vote for it.
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

FallacyofUrist

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #4142 on: August 09, 2017, 06:16:48 pm »

Prisoner's Dilemma. Or some other game theory situation.

Whatever this is called.

Each player has two options. Change their vote from their preference, or keep it.

If both keep their vote, something not their preference(trying to make Lucky Strike work with a revision) occurs. 0 points.

If one changes their vote and the other keeps, the player that keeps their vote on their preference gains +10 and the player that changed it gains +5.

If both players change their vote, 0 points like the first.

Effectively, nobody wants to change their vote because they think their own revision is better and want to maximize benefit, but if nobody changes their vote, something non-preferable(Lucky Strike revision being passed) occurs.

Break the cycle. Change your vote.

... fine.

Quote
REVISION
1 - Crystal Ammunition Fabrication(summoned crystal bullets for automatic weaponry): Chiefwaffles
2 - KPD4(Greatly improve acceleration and ability of Lightning): Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist
0 - Weightite Works(Summon Very Heavy material):
0 - Large Mundane-Nests of Power(combine reactors with mundanes):
0 - Small reactors(reactors for infantry):
2 - Lucky Strike(figure out the foreign spell): RAM, Voidslayer
0 - Blastshell - Extreme Range (ER)(better propellants in lighter rockets): 
0 - Train-Deployed F45:

EXPENSE CREDIT:
1 - Spare Expense Credit: Chiefwaffles
1 - Use on Lightning: Fallacyofurist
I think it's more likely to work out than the CAF which is a jump from a factory to a single device(and wouldn't even give us automatic weaponry, just much faster reload time).

My views on the expense credit are unchanged. Think of how amazing a normal cost Lightning would be! Spam would solve most of our issues!
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Andres

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #4143 on: August 09, 2017, 06:57:14 pm »

Quote
REVISION
1 - Crystal Ammunition Fabrication(summoned crystal bullets for automatic weaponry): Chiefwaffles
1 - KPD4(Greatly improve acceleration and ability of Lightning): Chiefwaffles
0 - Weightite Works(Summon Very Heavy material):
0 - Large Mundane-Nests of Power(combine reactors with mundanes):
0 - Small reactors(reactors for infantry):
3 - Lucky Strike(figure out the foreign spell): RAM, Voidslayer
0 - Blastshell - Extreme Range (ER)(better propellants in lighter rockets): 
1 - Train-Deployed F45: FallacyofUrist

EXPENSE CREDIT:
1 - Spare Expense Credit: Chiefwaffles
1 - Use on Lightning: Fallacyofurist

Glory to Arstotzka.
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #4144 on: August 09, 2017, 07:04:09 pm »

Quote
REVISION
1 - Crystal Ammunition Fabrication(summoned crystal bullets for automatic weaponry): Chiefwaffles
2 - KPD4(Greatly improve acceleration and ability of Lightning): Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist
0 - Weightite Works(Summon Very Heavy material):
0 - Large Mundane-Nests of Power(combine reactors with mundanes):
0 - Small reactors(reactors for infantry):
3 - Lucky Strike(figure out the foreign spell): RAM, Voidslayer, Andres
0 - Blastshell - Extreme Range (ER)(better propellants in lighter rockets): 
0 - Train-Deployed F45:

EXPENSE CREDIT:
1 - Spare Expense Credit: Chiefwaffles
1 - Use on Lightning: Fallacyofurist

How do people keep on messing up the votes?

Anyways.
Currently literally the only thing challenging Moskurg's aerial and artillery dominance is the Avenger. And I'm not going to bother addressing RAM's nonsense regarding the range debuff, as I'm sure people already know that's false.

The Lightning uses a breech-loaded cannon and has poor acceleration. It needs to destroy two engines with multiple hits per engine. Even if every single shot hits the engine every time, that's still approximately four different shots. All with a breech-loaded cannon. Against an armed opponent. Which is faster and more agile than you. And with fighters swarming you.
We need better agility and rate of fire first.

We should wait until we can get rid of their range debuff then apply Lucky Strike. If we do it now, we give Moskurg time to prepare for it.


Also, it won't work at all this turn.
Guess what they have? Extremely effective anti-magic.
Guess what we'd get even with a 6 on a Lucky Strike revision? A spell. Our wizards would have to cast it in person and we would not have it in circuits, meaning it'd be vulnerable to their antimagic and thus largely useless.
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

RAM

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #4145 on: August 09, 2017, 07:40:48 pm »

I would like to point out that weightite could be used in very heavy armour, which has its uses, and gyroscopes, and ballast, and anchors... It can also be coated with crystal or steel to make up for most material deficiencies it might have.

Wind is air in motion. This is not so much a matter of opposing forces as it is a matter of throwing inertia at each other. Due to its low density, the amount of air that a bullet encounters is relatively low, and thus the amount of inertia pushing it to the side is relatively low. In order to keep the mass(and thus inertia) of encountered air low, the effective relevant cross-section of the bullet should be small. This also applies to penetration, the smaller the bullet is, the less armour it needs to move in order to make a hole. Meanwhile, the bullet has its own inertia, which is based solely upon its mass.

In short, we want as much bullet as possible to pass through as little air as possible. Crystals are low-density compared to steel. That means that the same mass of crystal encounters more air due to being larger, or that the same volume of crystal is more easily veered off due to reduced mass.

There is also the argument that lighter objects move faster, and that spend less time in the air, and thus encounter less air due to the air travelling sideways and thus encountering the bullet regardless of whether the bullet is in motion. This is completely undone by the fact that a proportional increase in velocity will produce a proportional reduction in travel time and require a greater than proportional increase in force. There is also an inverse economy of scale in firing chambers and barrels. Doubling the thickness of a chamber in order to facilitate a more powerful charge requires much more material if it is applied to the outside of the chamber than to the inside, due to the greater circumference at the outside than at the inside. Thus, a smaller bullet with the same mass can have its velocity increase more easily than a lighter bullet with the same circumference, assuming that you do not want your cannon to explode...

A heavier bullet will, however, offer more resistance to being propelled out of a cannon than a lighter bullet will. Given that the bullet, even if quite heavy, will still have by far the lowest resistance to receiving force of the whole mechanism, this is basically a good thing. A slight loss of efficiency in relative power transfer is easily recovered by a much greater opportunity to receive power.

Crystal bullets would be a significant upgrade to wind-based defences against bullets. Our current primary problem is wind-based defences to bullets. Crystal ammunition would actually be bad for us, regardless of what it does to rate of fire.

Considering that our Mundanes are already limited in their rate of fire due to power shortages, it seems reasonable to assume that this is also a factor for our other cannons, given that a single wizard can contribute to multiple cannons if they are in close enough proximity. Adding to their power consumption without solving the power shortage issue seems to be a mistake.


Their antimagic only applies if they can get into range and choose to use it. Given that it will only stop lucky-strike, and they can only antimagic at medium range, it is still useful. And we can only get lucky strike working if we understand it. Spending a single revision to get a handle on a completely new field of magic is well worth it. Our previous forays into new forms of magic have been notoriously difficult. If we had gotten a competent form of antimagic resistance back when I asked for one, then we would not be having this problem. Unfortunately we got an antimagic resistance that applies only to circuits, and is a hard-counter within that theatre so will probably be nerfed under the new rules. Don't be surprised if Avengers start dropping out of the skies if they get into short-range of an antimagic field...

KPD4 is a minor addition. Do you know what the "4" stand for? It stands for "it failed on three previous designs, lets try again". Go back and take a good hard look at the KPD4 proposal and see if it makes sense that a revision with that description would do any more for us than the 3 whole designs that evidently weren't satisfactory. It has been mentioned that the hull is the reason for the poor acceleration. We need a complete redesign of the aircraft to improve its performance noteably. It still won't work, of course, Keggers rule the skies, they can make jet-engines with a single revision, our airforce will never be more than "present" at this rate, and a revision certainly won't change that when three designs didn't.

Crystal Ammunition Fabrication is a downgrade. It uses inferior ammunition resulting in less range. It increases potential rate of fire by being less energy-efficient per shot, thus reducing practical rate-of-fire in most scenarios. The only significant advantage it would see is in removing the need to handle the weapons, so aircraft could have fixed guns and no gunner, being traditional dogfighters. Given that they are difficult to fly, however, we likely want dedicated gunners regardless, so why not use them as reloading mechanisms too and save on power consumption? Summoned ammunition is a good idea, but it doesn't work if we are summoning low-density crystals using a limited power source.

ER Blastshells have the same problem of being light. They do, however, at least replace an older technology. They are very much unlikely to increase our effective range, because they will be less deflection-resistant than solid bullets, but at least the sustained thrust might lower their exposure time...

KPD4 is too little to make a difference without a really good roll and favourable G.M.. We do not want to rely upon such things, although the favourable G.M. bit has turned out well for us in the past.

Train-deployment is, as others have said, largely redundant. There is some sense, however, in providing mobile resupply stations. I am not voting for it, but still...

Barring a massively good result. KPD4
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helmacon

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #4146 on: August 09, 2017, 07:50:08 pm »

Can someone add me to the KDP4? ( for the sole reason of feeding this conflict...)
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FallacyofUrist

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #4147 on: August 09, 2017, 08:01:16 pm »

Quote
REVISION
1 - Crystal Ammunition Fabrication(summoned crystal bullets for automatic weaponry): Chiefwaffles
3 - KPD4(Greatly improve acceleration and ability of Lightning): Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist, helmacon
0 - Weightite Works(Summon Very Heavy material):
0 - Large Mundane-Nests of Power(combine reactors with mundanes):
0 - Small reactors(reactors for infantry):
3 - Lucky Strike(figure out the foreign spell): RAM, Voidslayer, Andres
0 - Blastshell - Extreme Range (ER)(better propellants in lighter rockets): 
0 - Train-Deployed F45:

EXPENSE CREDIT:
1 - Spare Expense Credit: Chiefwaffles
1 - Use on Lightning: Fallacyofurist
SOMEBODY DECAPITALIZED PART OF MY NAME!

Seriously, vote to use the Expense Credit on the Lightning. Normal Cost Lightning would be amazing. Very Expensive F44 is useful. Normal F45 would be amazing.
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VoidSlayer

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #4148 on: August 09, 2017, 08:07:01 pm »

If we do the expense credit on the lightning now and then do several revisions would that no longer count for the expense credit?

Bah. Put me on the expense credit for the lightning I guess.

Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #4149 on: August 09, 2017, 08:12:35 pm »

Revising a design won't void an expense credit, no.

But wait - here's my super master plan for the Expense Credit. We apply it to this.

Future Design: Flying Fortress
A huge behemoth made out of crystal. There is no parallel for this vehicle at land nor sea. It is truly a flying fortress.

It uses many Aether Reactors along with appropriately-scaled KPD propulsion to keep itself aloft.

A Flying Fortress is air-sealed, with climate control and atmospheric regulation passive circuitry. Plenty of crystal glass windows and observation decks allow for viewing the ground below. Lightning turrets are scattered across the hull, and the barrels of many HA1s bristle out of the bottom of each side.

The armor is extremely thick, ideally being completely impenetrable to any non-unified Moskurger strike in any reasonable timeframe.


This can be Very Expensive. It's genius.
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

FallacyofUrist

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #4150 on: August 09, 2017, 08:16:13 pm »

Can it go to space?

And did I just hear Evicted faint?
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RAM

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #4151 on: August 09, 2017, 08:20:05 pm »

Each player has two options. Change their vote from their preference, or keep it.
Note that at least person is not suffering from this dilemma, as they have no voting discipline. I honestly thought that they had changed this time, it was actually a really pleasant surprise, I guess I just got mislead by the large difference in the lengths of the names of proposals. But anyway, we should basically assume that everyone is voting for all of their own proposals, in addition to whatever else they vote for.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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Urist has been forced to use a friend as fertilizer lately.
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #4152 on: August 09, 2017, 08:23:53 pm »

Speaking of space, here's a rudimentary plan!

Plan Codename "Goddamn Moskurg and their Goddamn Wind"

Revision: Atmospheric Regulator Circuitry - Implement passive circuitry that manages both temperature and now the air inside a closed space, and implement it inside the Lightning.
Revision: Vacuum Propulsion - [Using concepts from ARC revision above maybe?] We adjust the KPD so its efficiency is unchanged by a thinning atmosphere.

And now we can go into space!

Design(?): Mindgem - We need something to manage orbital flight. We have a lot more freedom compared to something like NASA because we have infinite fuel. But still. Also weapon targeting calculations - Lucky Strike probably won't help that much from orbit.
Design: Orbital Weapons Platform - Oh yes.


But anyway, we should basically assume that everyone is voting for all of their own proposals, in addition to whatever else they vote for.
Uh, no.
We should assume that people vote for what they say they vote for and nothing else. That is what voting is.
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

RAM

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #4153 on: August 10, 2017, 12:17:23 am »

We have temperature control and dog summoning and our explosions generate some sort of mass. This could, potentially, lead into some sort of air-quality control, but I really don't see any of our experience being directly applicable. So I am thinking more than a revision.

As stated above, our explosions generate mass. There is no reason to believe that they would not work in a vacuum. No doubt air-pressure helps act as a resistive force to multiply their power output, which, one assumes, is how it is justified that what is essentially a rocket with infinite fuel can get off the ground but not into space, that and the surrounding air helping with its stability... But still, we have confirmed that it produces mass(which is mad overpowered but it lets dubious engine-designs that have outflow with no inflow work, and that is the important thing...) so it should propel in space even without the explosive force... It would likely need the power output doubled, if not raised by an order of magnitude, which is likely several revisions or a couple of designs worth...

Mindgem is inferior to living spell. Living spell can be applied to gems more easily than mindgems can released into a living spell. Our experience with mind magic has zero attachments to crystals, there is no reason to believe that it would be easier to achieve mindgems than living spells outside of "less good make it easier". We have just seen a great example of the folly of mindgems. We made crystal-based antimagic resistance and now people are complaining that we should ignore our newly acquired luck spell because mages aren't antimagic resistant. If we had had a more general-purpose antimagic resistance then this would not be an issue. If we ever want guidance on projectiles that don't have an expensive, light, and fragile crystal on them, if we ever want intelligent magic-eating flame monsters that devour entire fleets of airships, if we ever want magical assistants that live inside our mages' heads and help them with magic... then we need something better than mindgems, and the difference in difficulty does not seem to be significant.

Aiming is pretty minor, if we could summon something suitably heavy... then we can just bomb regions. Also note that being inherently magical, it is dubious that magical minds would be any better at the extremely mundane complexity of orbital trajectories than human minds are. Now, if you were asking for a magical mind to control a complex magical effect, such as a film that covers and entire craft that has to be kept stable by making subtle modifications to the film's output, then great, magic mind for magic operation is great, because magic should be good with magic. Given the nature of magic, if we just assume magic = computer-level-mathematical ability, then we are probably instantly onto the information-technology event horizon. Magic tends to just gloss over the details, so a computer making a better computer is much more plausible if it is a magic computer. And a magic computer is much less likely to go "I am designed to make helpful computers, and they will be helpful by making sure that the computers which they create are helpful" and much more likely to go "Ia ia cthulhu Ftagn"... So we really better hope that they are not capable of orbital mechanics.

As I understand it, deorbital reentry is rough because orbiting requires a phenomenal amount of velocity. it is not anything magical about entering an atmosphere that complicates matters, it is that you need to dissipate an insane amount of energy without exploding. If you can just fire your rockets constantly then you can zero your position relative to the planetary surface prior to dropping, and then drop by lowering your thrust to a point just a little below that of gravity, and tweaking it up a bit as gravity increases. Orbiting is basically throwing something so fast that it doesn't fall because that is the only way to go up and stay up. Infinite fuel opens the option of just going up by pushing down, and staying up by continuing to push down, with no massive sideways push required. You can see this in extreme-altitude craft such as weather balloons and spyplanes which can be recovers without bothering about complex reentry paths or heat-shielding...

Also note that just because wind doesn't leave the atmosphere doesn't mean that things propelled by it can't... also "solar winds" is totally fair-game if we get "breathable atmosphere maintenance"... Note that, while not exactly a constant, the ability for visible light to go through something is somewhat similar to the ability for ionising radiation to go through something. Far more relevant, however, is density. Anyone and anything that leaves the atmosphere in a crystal box is going to melt come morning.

It is extremely clear from basically everyone's conduct here that the voting scheme currently consists of "one vote per person for any given design or revision action, no restriction on which option to vote for, change at any time.". It has even been noted that being prevented from voting for other things while voting for your own is creating a quandary. I expect that I could count on one hand the number of project that were submitted by someone who was unwilling to vote for them in this thread. I feel that "if voting for multiple proposals were permitted, people would always vote for their own in addition to whatever else" is a safe assumption. Barring anyone stating that they would not abide by this, given a universally accepted "vote as much as you want" ruling, this assumption stand unopposed. If you think that assumed votes never happen then you really don't know what voting is.
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evictedSaint

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #4154 on: August 10, 2017, 10:22:49 am »

Revision: KPD4 [3]

We modify the KPD to wrap around the sides of the Lightning to allow omni-directional thrust.  This disrupts the aerodynamic arrow-head design and gives it a more "bathtub" shape, but being able to directly accelerate from one side should allow the craft to get up to speed faster.

Please vote on what to do with the Expense Credit and where to deploy Myark.
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