Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[da_nang]

I think I remember the Eqyptian border has a physical wall as well.

And I imagine a large mass of civilians, likely with militants mixed in, marching across the Israeli border wouldn't go down well.

[Strongpoint]

Israel can't realistically accept refugees from Gaza. It is a security nightmare...  Also, world media will scream about forced deportations and concentration camps.

Why other countries don't lift a finger to accept refugees (especially those countries that scream GENOCIDE) is a much more interesting question. I doubt that Israel would interfere with a fleet of ships taking refugees. If anything, they would pay for fuel from their own pocket.

Note that even before the war many Gazans wanted to emigrate anywhere.

[nenjin]

How are they supposed to leave though?

[Strongpoint]

How are they supposed to leave though?

They can't. Not without Egypt, Israel, or someone with enough ships deciding to make it possible.

Note that it is easy to understand why Egypt doesn't want Palestinian refugees. Not only it is an economic burden, they don't want radical Islamists in their country to cause political destabilization. They also don't want Hamas getting into Sinai and attacking Israel from there, provoking an Israeli response against Egypt. (I still think that even with those reservations, this is not a good reason to not accept women and children.)

[hector13]

Israel has form for not letting Palestinian refugees return to the territory so… I find it challenging to believe that they want to leave if the they have no guarantee of ever being able to return home.

That’s also why folk won’t accept Palestinian refugees, too.

[Bumber]

Better dead than unable to return home, I guess.

[Strongpoint]

Israel has form for not letting Palestinian refugees return to the territory so… I find it challenging to believe that they want to leave if the they have no guarantee of ever being able to return home.

Do you really find it challenging to believe that pre-war Gaza had people who wanted to leave the corruption-ridden totalitarian theocratic Hamas-ruled place and never go back?

That’s also why folk won’t accept Palestinian refugees, too.

Yeah. And it is sooo "logical". At least Ukrainians are more lucky than Palestinians*. We didn't have EU go like "We believe that Putin's Russia won't allow Ukrainians to come back home ever, so we close our borders to not help Russians with their ethnical cleansing" in 2022, when everyone expected that all of Ukraine will be occupied within weeks.

If you truly believe that Israel is genociding Palestinians, like some countries claim they do, then it is your moral duty to help those people flee from being killed by genocidal monsters instead of "preventing ethnic cleansing" by not accepting refugees.

*But thinking about that, there is a strong similarity. For a ton of politicians Ukrainians are expandable material, a cheap weapon against Russia. Similarly, for a ton of politicians, Palestinians are expandable material, a cheap weapon against Israel.

[Loud Whispers]

Israel has form for not letting Palestinian refugees return to the territory so… I find it challenging to believe that they want to leave if the they have no guarantee of ever being able to return home.

That’s also why folk won’t accept Palestinian refugees, too.

Recently, the idea of pushing for the displacement of Gaza’s Palestinian population was given voice by Israeli National Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir and Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich in what they called "voluntary migration," urging countries to take displaced Palestinians in.
Ben-Gvir and Smotrich’s remarks received immediate and international condemnation, including from the UK, Germany and France

It’s not up to Israel to decide where Palestinians should live: France
France condemned remarks by Israeli officials pushing for the displacement of Gaza’s Palestinian population, saying Israel has no right to decide the fate of people in Gaza.
"France condemns the remarks by Israeli Finance Minister Bazalel Smotrich and National Security Minister Itamar Ben Gvir, calling for the emigration of the Gazan population as well as the re-establishment of (Jewish) colonies and occupation of the land (Gaza)," the French Foreign Ministry said in a statement.
Urging Israel to refrain from such provocative remarks, saying they only serve to fuel tensions, the ministry said any forced population transfer would constitute a serious violation of international law according to the Geneva Convention and Rome Statute.
"It is not up to Israeli government to decide where Palestinians should live," it said. "The future of the Gaza Strip and its inhabitants will lie in a unified Palestinian state living in peace and security alongside Israel."

Gazans 'should not be subject' to forcible relocation: UK
Britain "firmly rejects any suggestion of the resettlement of Palestinians outside of Gaza," said a statement from Britain’s Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office.
"Gaza is Occupied Palestinian Territory and will be part of a future Palestinian state," it said, adding that it rejects suggestions from Israeli officials pushing for the resettlement of Palestinians outside of Gaza.
"We share the concerns of our allies and partners that Gazans should not be subject to forcible displacement or relocation from Gaza," the office added.

Rejection of Gazans displacement in 'strongest possible way': Germany
The German Foreign Ministry also underlined its opposition to the dislocation of the Palestinian population in Gaza, saying: "We reject the statements made by the two ministers in the strongest possible way."
Ministry spokesperson Sebastian Fischer said the issue was discussed during the G7 Foreign Ministers Meeting in Tokyo last November.
Fischer added: "The forced removal of Palestinians from Gaza and the reduction of the territory of the Gaza Strip should not be out of the question."

Displacing population would violate international law: Spain
Spain, one European country that has been outspoken in defending Palestinians, joined countries condemning the Israeli officials pushing the forced relocation of the population in Gaza.
"The Government of Spain rejects recent statements by members of the Government of Israel evoking population movements in Gaza that would be contrary to international law," the Foreign Ministry said in a statement.
"Spain reiterates the urgent need to respect international law, international humanitarian law and to guarantee the protection of the civilian population," it added.

Displacement calls 'do not fit' future two-state solution: Netherlands
The Netherlands called the Israeli officials' proposal for the voluntary migration of Palestinians from the Gaza Strip "irresponsible."
Amsterdam supports a two-state solution, the Dutch Foreign Ministry underlined in a statement.
"The Netherlands rejects any calls for Palestinian displacement from Gaza or reduction of Palestinian territory," it said. "This does not fit a future two-state solution, with a viable Palestinian state alongside a secure Israel.”

Mass emigration of Palestinians is against international law: Slovenia
Slovenia also rejected the idea of the mass displacement of Palestinians from Gaza.
"Slovenia rejects the recent statements of members of the Israeli government who proposed mass emigration of Palestinians from Gaza," the Foreign Ministry said in a statement.
Warning that any emigration of the Palestinian population from Gaza is against international law, the ministry stressed that it would further threaten the prospects for a sustainable two-state solution.
"We once again call for respect for international law and international humanitarian law and the protection of the civilian population in Gaza," it added.

Israeli officials’ proposal 'inflammatory, irresponsible': EU
Although only a handful of European countries condemned the Israeli officials’ call individually, a top official of the 27-member EU bloc slammed the call for the displacement of people from the Gaza Strip.
"I strongly condemn the inflammatory and irresponsible statements by Israeli ministers Ben Gvir & Smotrich slandering the Palestinian population of Gaza and calling for a plan for their emigration," EU foreign policy chief Josep Borrell said on X.
He also stressed: "Forced displacements are strictly prohibited as a grave violation of IHL (international humanitarian law), and words matter."

It just feels completely pointless trying to explain why ethnic cleansing is bad. You either get it or you don't though. Same people who call South Africa, United Nations, Journalists, Medics, Children, the West and the long growing list of charities all supporters of Hamas, just think the solution to genocide is genocide. Never mind the Israeli government supporting Hamas.

I asked my South African m8 for the rundown of what the hell is going on and why South Africa's leading the ICJ case of all nations, and he said it's because a lot of the ANC remember when they were staring down the barrels of white supremacist guns or sitting in prison, and all the world was sanctioning South Africa and depriving them of armaments, Israel was the country keeping apartheid Africa alive.

"In general, this is just a hugely profound moment looking at the history of both Israel's support for the apartheid government in South Africa and the ongoing solidarity between anti-apartheid movements globally for South Africa and for Palestine," says Jo Bluen, an international relations scholar and organiser at South African Jews for a Free Palestine.
South African Jews for a Free Palestine have been at the forefront of Johannesburg's protests decrying Israel's actions in Gaza.

Professor Salim Vally, director for the Centre for Education Rights and Transformation at the University of Johannesburg, says: "Most South Africans also recognise Israel's complicity in our own oppression.
"For example, Israel was an important arms supplier to apartheid South Africa, despite the international arms embargo. As late as 1980, 35% of Israel's arms exports were destined for our country."

"When the global anti-apartheid movement forced countries to impose sanctions on the apartheid regime, Israel imported South African goods and re-exported them to the world as a form of inter-racist solidarity," he adds.
"Israel was loyal to the apartheid state and clung to this friendship when almost all other relationships dissolved."

South Africans ended apartheid 1992. Israel kept the apartheid government supplied with weapons, ammunition and technicians. It's pretty sad reading old CIA reports showing the Americans were well aware Israel was undermining US foreign policy but didn't do anything but show unconditional support regardless:

November 1, 1983, South Africa Arms Industry

South African officials, however, have frequently expressed a preference for US military equipment, especially high-technology items. Continued acquisi- tion by Armscor of US military technology either through international arms dealers or through the cooperation of close US allies such as Israel will create periodic problems for the United States. The Soviets can be expected, for example, to cite South Africa's ease in circumventing the UN arms embargo to bolster their claims that Washington is colluding with Pretoria against black Africa.

This continues from Washington's frustrations that Israel sold China advanced American weapons technology, with the CIA fearing that these military secrets were subsequently sold to Iran by China -_-

Honestly the biggest frustration about this all is how loudly the European countries' politicians will decry genocidal action plans, but then how inactive and passive they get when witnessing genocidal actions

But alas. Everyone stfu. Strongpoint has another big brain take. The world shouldn't have worked together to end South Africa apartheid. The world should have just cleansed South Africa of its black populace to help maintain a white majority

[nenjin]

My point being is: how can anyone who objects to the genocide of Palestinians help if they're not provided evacuation corridors? How can food and aid be provided when the Israeli government prevents those shipments from reaching them?

I just watched a video by an Irish gentlemen comparing "The Great Hunger" to what's going on in Gaza right now. During the Great Hunger, the Irish emigrated because in the middle of a crop famine, additional food was being shipped out of Ireland by the British for the express purpose of starving the Irish to death. The same tactic is being used in Gaza right now. If we can't just blow them up due to international condemnation, then just prevent them from getting supplies so they starve to death.

Rather than flinging poo at people that both object to the situation and want to help, maybe fling it directly at Israel for effectively blockading any attempts TO HELP.

[hector13]

Yeah, refugees need to be processed before they can be refugees, and that’s not going to happen in Gaza even not considering Israel’s past conduct in not letting them back, and other countries demands not to displace the population.

The situation with Ukraine isn’t analagous to Gaza because there was still a Ukrainian government that could basically say “yes, these people are who they say they are, please look after them we’ll welcome them back when we can.”

Who is going to do that for Gazans? Hamas have already tried to get injured militants medical treatment by making them appear to be civilians, in addition to being considered terrorists across the world.

Israel? Well LW just posted something with government ministers saying they want them out, and the way they allow settlers to treat Palestinians in occupied territories does suggest they just want them to go and don’t necessarily care how.

The UN? UN facilities have been getting damaged and destroyed in air strikes for the entirety of the current conflict, why would they put people at risk just for bureaucracy’s sake in an active war zone?

[Strongpoint]

But alas. Everyone stfu. Strongpoint has another big brain take. The world shouldn't have worked together to end South Africa apartheid. The world should have just cleansed South Africa of its black populace to help maintain a white majority

If you helped Jews flee from German-occupied countries you didn't help to cleanse Europe from Jews, you did something very different. It is not me who calls Israeli actions in Gaza genocide.

Israel is an occupier and is genociding Palestinians but if we'll help them to flee we'll help Israel with ethnic cleansing so let us build a huge wall to keep Palestinians under the occupation of people who genocide them

It is absurd but you seem to believe exactly this

_____________________________
Also, what if a Palestinian wants to leave Palestine and seek a better life elsewhere? Should they be prohibited from doing so because by doing so they help the ethnic cleansing of their own country and their personal rights don't matter?

[Loud Whispers]

If you helped Jews flee from German-occupied countries you didn't help to cleanse Europe from Jews, you did something very different. It is not me who calls Israeli actions in Gaza genocide.

Because they were helped home. What you're advocating for is the fucking Madagascar solution

Also, what if a Palestinian wants to leave Palestine and seek a better life elsewhere? Should they be prohibited from doing so because by doing so they help the ethnic cleansing of their own country and their personal rights don't matter?

It is because their personal rights matter that Israel shouldn't be the one to decide for them

The UN? UN facilities have been getting damaged and destroyed in air strikes for the entirety of the current conflict, why would they put people at risk just for bureaucracy’s sake in an active war zone?

Israel just attacked another U.N. shelter with tanks, killing 12 whilst the UN was distributing aid. In a roundabout where civilians gathered to wait for aid, Israeli infantry opened fire, killing 20..

Nice of the IDF to give them voluntary incentives to relocate. It can be scary moving to another country sometimes

[Strongpoint]

In a roundabout where civilians gathered to wait for aid, Israeli infantry opened fire, killing 20..

Do you have anything resembling proof that it was Israeli infantry and not Hamas or some random gang produced by wartime anarchy? All this video shows is gunfire and running people. Nothing that indicates the presence of the IDF. Proof of "killing 20" would also be nice

[nenjin]

Occam's Razor says the LEAST likely explanation would be Hamas opening fire on refugees to then blame it on the IDF.

[Strongpoint]

Occam's Razor says the LEAST likely explanation would be Hamas opening fire on refugees to then blame it on the IDF.

So there is no proof at all. Thank you.

Reminds me of when a misfired Hamas rocket landed near the hospital causing some light damage but the world media already jumped to the conclusion that Israel intentionally bombed a hospital and killed 500 because Gaza Health Ministry said so. They backed off only when obvious evidence of the contrary started piling on. Must have been Occam's Razor (aka blame Israel always) back then, too.

BTW, my Occam Razor explanation is - There is a food shortage in Gaza. Food is a very valuable resource, and fighting for it is natural in a society approaching anarchy. One of the reasons why sieges are historically effective is because hungry people (and criminals who want to profit) start doing things like this.