Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

For !

Against !

[RAM]

How about just allowing some units to fly over gaps and traps on the back of other beasts,maybe when magic is added allow some sort of external magic attack.

they could chop down trees and put planks over gaps if that was the only issue, but there is far more to the issue of tunnelling opponents than just finding a way to deal with single-tile moats and constructed walls. There are people out there who want D.F. 1.0 to have the option of including opponents who will be able to dig through terrain. There are people who want all excavation to be player-controlled. The issue of "I made my fortress literally immune to attack, please fix this." is only a minor issue in the grand scheme of the tunnelling debate.

[Sunken]

I think the thing I would actually most regret losing to tunneling isn't natural stone walls, although I do want to be able to engrave constructed walls, it's dirt floors.  There is no way to get those back, and without them you don't get above ground fauna.

A comment: that's because dirt is magically removed when dug out, which hopefully shouldn't be the case in the future. Even if it's debatable if stone debris from mining should be capable of forming solid living rock again, there's no reason whatever that an empty tile shouldn't be refillable with dirt or sand. I'm sort of assuming that will be possible eventually.

[mrtspence]

I think just having walls of greater hardness than the enemies picks (ie. your steel wall foils their bronze pick) would allow you to ring your fort with steel in an awesome megaproject defense. Also, embarking on an aquifer would stop tunnelers cold. However, I think having enemies dig very slowly (ie. it would take seasons to dig into your fort) would be appropriate--representing their slow progress to ensure they are headed in the correct direction and aren't collapsing things on themselves due to their un-dwarvenly lack of tunnelcraft.

Counter sapping would be sweet. Picture this: you are alerted to a goblin tunneling squad advancing towards one of your lower hallways. You construct a vat and order it filled with water from the well. Your expert miners tunnel from the vat to near and above the enemy tunnel. A channel is breached into their ceiling, arrows ricocheting about the stone near your cackling miner. You pull the lever. The dozens of besieging goblins in the tunnel are met with a torrent of water. Later, once the siege is passed, you breach their tunnel near the surface and a tide of foul water rushes out, carrying with it numerous half-rotten, bloated goblin corpses.

[Urist Mcfortwrecker]

for, however with similar constraints, i dont want some sneaky gobo tunneling into my main production facility and destroying everything despite having put it under the caverns. and the permenant loss of valuable soil is a concern, so in DF as it exists now, against, but in the future with better soil managment, for

[RAM]

Do you have any suggestions on how to implement that?
 My idea was to, and the commencement of a siege, and possibly periodically after that in the case of protracted sieges, the besieging force would plan out their attack. This would mostly involve special pathing for things such as siege engines, building fortified storage for troops and supplies, possibly troop formations, and whatever else... This would involve pathing through solid ground, probably with a bias against, such as maybe counting soil as something like 50 spaces and rock as 200 for example. This would involve a lot of work on the part of the pathing, so you would only do it very occasionally and probably group the besieging army into clusters of units that would be pathed as a single entity.
 Hopefully this way you could have the wagons and some guards march along with the main attack forces then stop short of the enemy defences and start building a walled area with lots of arrow slits. The main forces could march off down the main entrance and play with whatever is there, before running back to the fortifications that their friends built. And a group of tunnellers could march off with a small group of soldiers and poke a hole in the roof of your surface farm where there is only a tiny sliver of grass between your fort and the surface. Building destroyers and siege equipment could also benefit from a bit of pathing through solid objects...
 Ideally this would be combined with some sort of intelligence gathering. Tunnel pathing might not occur to places that had not been scouted. Scouting could occur by recording where previous invasions had reached, which could be limited be stopping them quickly. Surveyors could march around the surface detecting open space beneath them, which could be stopped by killing the surveyors. Snatchers could report back the places that they had seen, and you might get raided by spies before a siege arrives. Or folk might just dig ditches down at random and hope they find something.
 This could be coupled with an aversion system when it detects where their brethren have been injured and killed and makes pathing through these points steadily less desirable. That way the narrow corridor where a thousand goblins have died before would eventually become less desirable then digging a couple of tiles down to reach the far end of the corridor directly. Counters would include trapping the surface ground, building mining-resistant walls, building dummy-caverns filled with miasma, filling your walls with magma, burying your fortress as deep as you can, living under an aquifer...

[assasin]

personally what I would is have each civ have a different tech/culture levels. hunter/gatherer level would be basic ambushes and raids, tribal level would be what we have now, other levels could be sieg equipment that could deconstruct buildings like bridhes or walls, higher could dig, etc. the highest would come as close to current dwarf tech as possible.

This would mean that if players don't want to deal with a siege that is an actual threat they can either turn higher levels off in world gen or just embark in an area with low tech levels.

[RAM]

That sounds like an appropriate way to adjust difficulty levels, although I would like to see flavour in addition to difficulty. Some races might trade information with others. Some might be predisposed to digging, some might build a castle and just sit out there forever killing all of the merchants...

[Robosaur]

Against. I'm a whore for aesthetics and don't want these people digging random holes all over the place.

same, but an unreveal designation would fix this.

[Vlad]

I am all for diggers because this game is too god damn easy. Sieges are nothin compared to a trap hallway or a nice solid wall.

To solve all the random tunnels and holes, we should be able to fill in the holes with dirt or stone to create natural walls and rehide the tiles.

But I think this might be planned when Toady overhauls mining and have it create leftover dirt and stone rubble that we can move around. I think there's a thread about it somewhere.

[RAM]

Having an option to automatically fill all tunnels that you didn't dig yourself might be a useful companion...

[alamoes]

Tunneling would be interesting.  Again, you may turn it off in the init. 

[Brilliand]

Tunneling would be interesting.  Again, you may turn it off in the init.

I don't think the init is the right place to turn this off.  Creatures should have RAW tags indicating their degree of tunneling ability, and the proper way to disable tunneling would be to mod out those tags.

[PTTG??]

Ah, but RAW modding is more difficult that some people are prepared to deal with.

I would argue that we should try to keep Dwarf Fortress from suffering Init Balkanization, however, I think that tunneling units in particular are a worth thing to disable in the raws. They are simply so controversial that disrupting the player-base isn't worth the "efficiency" of a simpler Init.

[RAM]

You could probably limit the issue by categorising initialisation options. For example, a button to deactivate all the involuntary fortress modifications, such as building destroyers, tunnellers, cave-ins, sappers, and siege fortresses... I would expect that the options could be addressed individually on a more exhaustive list...

[zwei]

What about simply giving player ability to repair damage?

Tunelling could displace soil and dwarves would be able to replace it back after disrupting tunelling activities. In fact, soil could be generally handled as non-disappering material even when player miners

And rock tunelling would simply not be in game yet.