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[Orangebottle]

I don't even understand what you're saying. Are you saying it's a shame to every first person shooter, or frames per second? If you mean first person shooter and are implying Engies are a bad class, you are wrong, Engies are boss. If it's the second, I've never run into any FPS problems where Engies are concerned.

If you mean something else, I don't know the acronym. Sorry!

First person shooter.
Why do you think engies are awesome? They're a weak combat class whose primary focus is on building an auto-aiming heavy+soldier combo, then building a supply locker right next to it and constantly healing and giving ammo to the heavy+soldier. Also, wrenching anyone who dares walk near their nest, despite the fact that they built it on the ramp leading to their base's exit.

I believe orange bottle is referring to the manshooter 16 style FPS where everybody has the same gun and stands in corners waiting for someone to wander past

Sounds boring. Why would anyone want to play that?

That's what I've seen many, many engineers do. Level3sentry, level3dispenser, tape m1 down,  ggnorekkthxbai

[Enzo]

Sure, conventional Engi is boring to play. Why would you want to do that? You have all those fun toys at your disposal to play with.

[Jackrabbit]

Okay, I was joking when I said anyone who plays vanilla engie does that. If you're sitting in the one place for an entire round, unless it's a CP game and the enemy team captured the first point in the first minute, you're not being a huge help. You should not be static for the whole round. Sentries can be moved, and should be moved as battle lines shift. Finding a good place to put a sentry, finding a great place for a tele, and appropriately placing a dispenser is vital to your team and can mean the difference between victory and defeat. It all depends on the sort of playstyle you like, when it comes right down to it. I personally love gunslinging my way round the map but it's satisfying to have a clever enough sentry placement that suddenly the enemy team has to redefine their entire assault around me. That's pretty awesome. Also, I defend the practise of smacking anyone who comes near me. It sounds like you're trying to say a spy couldn't get as far as the entrance to your base, but that's basically what they're built to do.

Also also, engies are not a weak combat class. Do not disrespect or disregard the shotgun or pistol. They can be lethal.

Out of interest, how much dislike of engies would you say comes from you dying to them a whole lot?

[umiman]

I love the engie!

I can't aim for shit, but I enjoy plunking down mini sentries everywhere and helping my team out with teleporters and dispensers.

[Jackrabbit]

I love this game.

I love this game SO MUCH.

Ess funny to me

[jester]

If you cant work out how to deal with the turtle engi, then like people who cant deal with the w+m1 pyro, you really need to look at your game, the problem is you, sadly.

  And to Osmosis Jones, I used to play alot of comp medic, there is no way a competent team EVER plays with a blutsager med, 3 hp a sec is huge, means you really HAVE to be shooting alot of needles each life to make up the differnce, unless you are a full blown battle med (and ill give you its heaps of fun, but at the end of the day, you arent a serious combat class) you want to spend as much time as possible healing the hurt guys, who should usually be closest to the enemy, having to rely on whipping out the blutsager for more health when everybody around you is low is not a good thing, if you keep an eye on it, regen will heal you more than the blut in any but full battle med.  The blut will really hurt you where flames are involved with a diff of about 30 hp between that and the needles.
  Though I do generally find standing about taunting and ubered while the guy im attached to guts the enemy more fun than shooting

[Werdna]

Frankly, I think the teleporter is the engie's main weapon on many of the maps.  Team Fortress is all about 'pressure', trying to press the enemy back so you can either take a flag or a cap point.  Given two equally skilled teams, the distance from spawn point to the action is what determines who takes an objective because the closer team will get its guys in the fight more often.  The game already moves spawn points to adjust pressure each time you take a cap and it has a huge effect on the game.  A well-maintained teleporter is your team's way of adjusting your spawn point and effectively putting it right at or behind the action. 

To me the sentrygun's only point on non A/D maps is to act as a backstop just behind the lines, primarily to protect the teleporter.  The reason I think teleporters are more important is that as skill level increases, sg-life expectancy tends to get a lot shorter, and engies have to play it safer with the sg locations unless they want to be rebuilding it all game long.  As the locations get safer, they have less impact on the game.  Teleporters only increase in value, because it gets your most skilled players to the battle faster.  Teleporters are more iffy on CTF maps though, its hard to keep them running when the exit points are in areas you don't control. 

I've never been a huge fan of engie nests, but that's mostly TFC instincts kicking in (it just screams for a MIRV).  I prefer to spread it around so it can't be taken out all at once.  Plus, TF2's ability to move the gear around is just too awesome.  Against skilled players, moving that gun becomes critical.  Nothing more satisfying than to finish moving a gun after it racks up a few kills, and see stickies accumulating over where it used to be.

[Duke 2.0]

 The SG is not about getting kills, it's always about what Werdna says, applying pressure. In an offensive position it prevents anybody from sneaking by or getting into a good ambush scenario on your advancing team. Scouts finds it a lot more difficult to loop around behind you and take out your entrance like a goddan prick. On defense it provides a similar area denial aspect of forcing somebody to focus on it. Players you can sneak around and take advantage of distractions with. The SG doesn't fall for that crap. Taking it out also usually means predictable positions that your teammates can exploit.

 On maps with scarce healthkits the dispenser is pretty much a second medic. The utility for a team from these things is amazing. I don't really need to explain how great teleporters are.

 Engineer is not about combat, it's a heavy support class and should be expected to play such a role.

[Orangebottle]

Okay, I was joking when I said anyone who plays vanilla engie does that. If you're sitting in the one place for an entire round, unless it's a CP game and the enemy team captured the first point in the first minute, you're not being a huge help. You should not be static for the whole round. Sentries can be moved, and should be moved as battle lines shift. Finding a good place to put a sentry, finding a great place for a tele, and appropriately placing a dispenser is vital to your team and can mean the difference between victory and defeat. It all depends on the sort of playstyle you like, when it comes right down to it.

I believe I've mentioned that I play a lot of 2fort.
This is the map where a good 80% of both teams decides,"Hey, let's go engineer and sit there in our nests until everyone dies of boredom because nobody can score a point."

I personally love gunslinging my way round the map but it's satisfying to have a clever enough sentry placement that suddenly the enemy team has to redefine their entire assault around me. That's pretty awesome.

I have no problem with gunslinger engineers. It's the upgraded sentries that bother me.

Also, I defend the practise of smacking anyone who comes near me. It sounds like you're trying to say a spy couldn't get as far as the entrance to your base, but that's basically what they're built to do.

No, I mean, some of those nest engies build their nests in the middle of some pathway that everyone on their team uses, then spends their time wrenching buildings and their teammates.

Also also, engies are not a weak combat class. Do not disrespect or disregard the shotgun or pistol. They can be lethal.

I can usually solo a lone engie pretty easily. The sentry makes that impossible, unless they're incredibly new in which case I sap their shit and backstab them and they can do nothing about it.

Out of interest, how much dislike of engies would you say comes from you dying to them a whole lot?

A lot of it. The rest is the coincidences and really really annoying tactics that make them practically unkillable.

Basically, when done in the most popular fashion, engie is four players.

If you cant work out how to deal with the turtle engi, then like people who cant deal with the w+m1 pyro, you really need to look at your game, the problem is you, sadly.

I usually start playing the game as scout.
I end up playing as demo or spy because holy fuck there are sentry nests all over the enemy base and they're all close enough to support eachother should I try to kill one. Ubercharge doesn't even work on them, cause the rockets and machineguns push me away from my medic.

Perhaps a heavy could do it, but the enemy team usually has at least one spy that stalks heavy+medics.

[Duke 2.0]

I believe I've mentioned that I play a lot of 2fort.

Well there's your problem.

[Werdna]

2fort is the arsehole of the Team Fortress universe.  They have to put it into every release, but it stinks regardless.  It's stupid easy to defend.  Play some Payload maps Orangebottle, and you'll see a whole new engy.

[jester]

2 fort is played as a DM map these days, if you are trying to cap, you are doing it wrong.  Nothing wrong with it as a DM map though, I still have fun on it.  An ubered demo should be able to take out 3 sentry nests no worries, let the medic go infront to take fire and dont be stupid enough to take your feet ofg the ground and it isnt a problem, ive had a demo take out 10 buildings in 1 uber including 5 sentries.  If you are a scout, you use bonk and comms.  Bonk in, get either right up to the sentry or get the engi between the sentry and you so it kills him.  While the sentry is pounding the crap out of your invicibleness the rest of the team wanders in and takes it out (cause you did call what you were doing before you did it, right?)

[Orangebottle]

2fort is the arsehole of the Team Fortress universe.  They have to put it into every release, but it stinks regardless.  It's stupid easy to defend.  Play some Payload maps Orangebottle, and you'll see a whole new engy.

But I like CTF, and I don't like payload.

[Teneb]

2fort is the arsehole of the Team Fortress universe.  They have to put it into every release, but it stinks regardless.  It's stupid easy to defend.  Play some Payload maps Orangebottle, and you'll see a whole new engy.

But I like CTF, and I don't like payload.

2Fort is not the only CTF map around, you know.

[MrWiggles]

DM map?