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[PTTG??]

Die.

[jc6036]

2fort is simply too narrow for offense, with the tight halls and ceilings all over the place - its a dream for stickies, sgs, heavies, and soldiers to nail down.  What can a scout do in such a tight space?

Dodge
Duck
Dip
Dive (and)
Dodge
Seriously, if I'm in an enemy base as a scout, I just turn back if there's an enemy in a hallway and take another.  If it's a wide open space (such as the space just before the stairways to the intel) then I'll pop a couple shots to supress them and run my merry ass to the basement.

[Duke 2.0]

Seriously, if I'm in an enemy base as a scout, I just turn back if there's an enemy in a hallway and take another.

2Fort

It's a bullshit thing to refute something with a single reply, but his comment was about 2Fort. Nothing you said about scout applies there.

[Jackrabbit]

Further more, the 'open space' in front of the stairs to the intel is about as open as the area directly outside the enemy team's base. It's a tiny, tiny bit more open than otherwise,  but it's also right outside the enemy team's base. If you get past it, it's because you were lucky enough to have either faced no enemies, or just one or two. And then you have to luck out again on the way back. It does happen! But you shouldn't have to rely on either luck or a bad enemy team to make it out of there alive.

[Duke 2.0]

 Oh, but you could watch the killfeed and time going out with a bunch of the enemy team respawning!

 Which is also a bunch of luck that they either won't head down for you or will do anything other than mope around the spawn hall for no reason.

[jc6036]

Further more, the 'open space' in front of the stairs to the intel is about as open as the area directly outside the enemy team's base. It's a tiny, tiny bit more open than otherwise,  but it's also right outside the enemy team's base. If you get past it, it's because you were lucky enough to have either faced no enemies, or just one or two. And then you have to luck out again on the way back. It does happen! But you shouldn't have to rely on either luck or a bad enemy team to make it out of there alive.

I'm not saying it's completely skill that gets one to the basement as a scout, and luck does play a large part.  Like I said, if I see an enemy, I pop a shot and run.  I rarely stop to kill anybody after I get inside the base.  With a little luck, the scout isn't that terrible; the majority of my captures are with scouts, in fact.

[Jackrabbit]

If luck is playing a large part of your capture, and if you can't change that regardless of what you do, it's not a good map.

[jc6036]

If luck is playing a large part of your capture, and if you can't change that regardless of what you do, it's not a good map.

I wasn't disputing that.  It really isn't a good map; I was just saying that scout's not as terribad as everyone thinks on 2fort (even if one does need a little luck to get by (which IS bs)).

[Jackrabbit]

Oh, arright.

Yeah, I mostly play 2Fort for the dickaround aspect and if I notice the enemy isn't bothering to defend at all I'll occasionally win the map too. Mostly I use it just to get a bit better at sticky jumping. The sticky jumper is, undisputibly, the best and most awesome weapon in TF2 and I will hear no word against it.

[jc6036]

I normally play 2fort to get better at shortrange bow sniping and medium range regular sniping, though sometimes I'll just go and grab the intel with scout if the teams are dicking around.

[PTTG??]

Oh, arright.

Yeah, I mostly play 2Fort for the dickaround aspect and if I notice the enemy isn't bothering to defend at all I'll occasionally win the map too. Mostly I use it just to get a bit better at sticky jumping. The sticky jumper is, undisputibly, the best and most awesome weapon in TF2 and I will hear no word against it.

It puts more focus on the Grenade Launcher and getting direct pills. The biggest loss in my opinion is in defensive power- you can't trap a point or flag anymore. But then, pyros will just airblast your traps away anyway...

[The Scout]

Idea for a sentry.
Cannot be reflected. (Rockets)
Shoots lasers instead of bullets and the soldier's laser things that go through people(Not everyone, should be a limit) instead of rockets, should do slightly more damage though.
No knockback.

It wouldn't do quite as much to a single person, or deny someone a room, but it would be harder to tell it's there and it would do quite a bit of damage against large groups of people all bunched up.

2fort is too crowded, all the other maps that small normally have several ways to go. But since it's a CTF map, and not CP or PL, it's harder to make a dynamic map and have multiple routes, due to them all having the same destination.

[Werdna]

Dodge, etc

I think you'd agree with me that all of these options, as scout, are a little more difficult in a constrained space where you can't double jump without hitting a wall or ceiling.  The areas are so tight a soldier could aim blindfolded, and still splash you. 

Seriously, if I'm in an enemy base as a scout, I just turn back if there's an enemy in a hallway and take another.

Scout's strong point, but missing the point.  All of 2fort's rooms and halls are relatively small.  Can you still do the D's you mentioned?  Of course.  Is it much more difficult to do so?  My point.  When you run into defense, and you will run into defense, you will need to start pumping out those D's to get past or to get away to try another route - and you have less room to do it in. 

Compare flag room of 2fort to the open one in Turbine.  Compare the two Turbine hallway sizes to the 2fort paths I mentioned above (never mind that 2fort's fd to fr path is twice as long).  Assume some defense in each path - no easy bypass routes.  Which would you rather play scout in?  Basically, compare the cramped 2fort base design to the base design on *every* Valve TF2 map and most 3rd party maps and you'll quickly see that TF2 maps are more open to allow space for the classes to properly do all the D's you mentioned.  2fort's cramped design is because it is an ancient, outdated map that's become both their flagship and their albatross. 

I'm not picking on scout or saying he sucks, I was just trying to point out a map design issue that constrains his best ability, the double jump.

(And I'm not saying every map should be a wide open airy wonderland, I'm just trying to point out that the openness of map design on CTF maps directly affects the balance between "too easy to D" and "too hard to D" - and 2fort's design is too easy to D.)

[Jackrabbit]

Idea for a sentry.
Cannot be reflected. (Rockets)
Shoots lasers instead of bullets and the soldier's laser things that go through people(Not everyone, should be a limit) instead of rockets, should do slightly more damage though.
No knockback.

It wouldn't do quite as much to a single person, or deny someone a room, but it would be harder to tell it's there and it would do quite a bit of damage against large groups of people all bunched up.

Why should the rockets not be reflected? That'd make it a straight upgrade from a regular sentry. And the lasers, how fast would they shoot? If they shoot at the speed of the Righteous Bison, then scouts could bypass the sentry easily with no knockback and most other classes could dodge it too.

I'm not really seeing the tactical applications of this. It doesn't look it it'd be good at defending much of anything.

[The Scout]

Same as normal, instant. The rockets would be like the soldier's laser sidearm, except faster and doing slightly more damage. If a scout ran in, he wouldn't get pumped out the door, he'd just start to die. But at the same time, it wouldn't be able to keep anything out of the area it is defending, aka spies, or a heavy who somehow got near it.