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[Duke 2.0]

 Holy hell, the sanvich fix has really caused a ton of people to whine. The Steam forums are especially bad about it, and I know how much they love to wine about little things. And I know they are wrong because they keep insisting that tossing a sanvich to the ground for instant 150hp is somehow considered skill.

[MrWiggles]

Holy hell, the sanvich fix has really caused a ton of people to whine. The Steam forums are especially bad about it, and I know how much they love to wine about little things. And I know they are wrong because they keep insisting that tossing a sanvich to the ground for instant 150hp is somehow considered skill.

Its very hard to alt fire on the sandwich, then you gotta know where to aim so you can plan where you're running for best optimization of the health gain.

Its very hard. Its like pyro air blasting.

[jc6036]

Holy hell, the sanvich fix has really caused a ton of people to whine. The Steam forums are especially bad about it, and I know how much they love to wine about little things. And I know they are wrong because they keep insisting that tossing a sanvich to the ground for instant 150hp is somehow considered skill.

I wish that Valve would give us another 100 dollar item that, if bought, would alert a valve employee and tell them to go and and give whiners a (physical) slap to the face.

[jester]

My bigger problem is ive never heard anybody complain about it, compared to about 10 other weps that are obviously oped/underpowered and nothing gets done

[Enzo]

I'm happy with the heavy debuff. It's more fun having to find somewhere safe to hide and eat between bouts, rather than just carrying a medium healthpack around at all times.

Its very hard. Its like pyro air blasting.

I know you're being facetious, but are you saying airblasts don't require skill? There's a lot involved with using airblasts to maximum effectiveness.

[Duke 2.0]

My bigger problem is ive never heard anybody complain about it, compared to about 10 other weps that are obviously oped/underpowered and nothing gets done

The Sanvich got a great deal of grief when it first came out because of all the classes to receive essentially free self-healing, it had to be the class with the most health to sustain itself with. It really is one of the oldest problem weapons. And where the Natasha got nerfed into oblivion, this got minor changes to the point where it was kind of silly.

 I'll concede that the sanvich could be improved. How abouts when using M1 the food bar won't deplete, only when you drop it for a teammate. Unlimited self-heals, but only if you survive.

[jester]

Well, it still heals other players, so im not all that unhappy about it, heavy is for noobs anyway.
  Still  FIX THE DAMN ENFORCER AND DEADRINGER VALVE YOU SHITTERS.  rant

[Osmosis Jones]

I'll concede that the sanvich could be improved. How abouts when using M1 the food bar won't deplete, only when you drop it for a teammate. Unlimited self-heals, but only if you survive.

So... going back to how it was when the M2 option was first added?

[Duke 2.0]

I'll concede that the sanvich could be improved. How abouts when using M1 the food bar won't deplete, only when you drop it for a teammate. Unlimited self-heals, but only if you survive.

So... going back to how it was when the M2 option was first added?

Pretty much.

[Orangebottle]

Well, it still heals other players, so im not all that unhappy about it, heavy is for noobs anyway.
  Still  FIX THE DAMN ENFORCER AND DEADRINGER VALVE YOU SHITTERS.  rant

I don't see how they're broken.

Deadringer's cloak is much shorter than that the other two watches, and then there's all the weapons that counter cloaking. Jarate(MON DIEU!), Mad Milk, Flamethrower, Backburner, Degreaser, Phlogistinator, Flare Gun, Detonator, Man Melter, Volcano Fragment(I do believe I'm on fire.), Southern Hospitality, Pomson 6000(one hit seals Spy's fate or cuts his DR time in half), Boston Basher, Three-rune Blade, Sydney Sleeper, Tribalman's Shiv, Cow Mangler(alt fire), Minigun*, Iron Curtain*, Tomislav*, Brass Beast*, and Natascha*.

With the Enforcer, if you nerf it, spies will just use the Ambassador(which kills most classes with two well-placed shots). Nerfing it is pointless.

Besides that, most classes have weapons that are powerful(Backburner, Sydney Sleeper, Loch n Load, Huntsman, Machina, Level 3 Sentry, Widowmaker, Pomson, Wrangler, Phlogistinator, Black Box, Direct Hit). Spy is the most difficult class to play and shouldn't be nerfed at all.

*provided heavy can aim his bullet hose of choice in the right direction.

I actually like the new heavy update. I can actually pick my sandvich back up when I miss the teammate I'm tossing it to and they don't come back to nom it.

I'll concede that the sanvich could be improved. How abouts when using M1 the food bar won't deplete, only when you drop it for a teammate. Unlimited self-heals, but only if you survive.

No, that just leads to people bitching about the heavy who camps one area and heals himself constantly.

[Enzo]

The problem with Enforcer + DR is that it's a straight upgrade. There is literally no benefit to using the default revolver with the DR. While it may not be overpowered, it's certainly unbalanced. The difference with the other weapons you listed is that they all have a trade-off.

Also, since when is the Sydney Sleeper a powerful upgrade to the regular Rifle? Did I miss something?

[jester]

DR basically makes the spy invincible and invisible, there isnt a hell of alot of skill to it, there are alot of loops where a spy can grab full metal and some health, jump into enemy teams, stagger round in a blindingly obvious fashion and then stagger back to the full metal and health pile and do it all again.  DR takes all the skill out of spy.  Even if you do happen to hit a cloaked DR with any of the weps you have mentioned besides the pomson (ill pay that is almost a counter) 70% of the time the spy will be able to stagger back to his lines with 4 enemies attacking him constantly, the 90% damage reduction is just stupid.

  Problem with the enforcer is 2 fold.  Blindingly obvious one being with the DR it has no debuff at all.  Noob spys everywhere have worked this one out.
Second being that the revolver was already a powerful gun.  Giving the spy the ability to take down 3 full health players without reloading or requiring any serious aiming is again stupid.  The spy has backstabs for 1 shot kills, they require a bit of skill.  Staggering round, 2 shotting an engi infront of 1/2 his team then happily wandering off with 2 players hammering crap out you cause you know they will never be able to take you down (16 stickies cant even kill a DR) has turned the spy from a high skill class into a bit of a joke. 

  For some fun proof of this, get a friend to go kritzmed and you go DR/enforcer spy, then play him like a face up combat class with the med on you.  Better damage output than almost any other gun ruins the spy.


edit, ninjaed.  And sleeper is lower powered than normal rifle, backburner lower than normal, (phlogy is getting a nerf though, its more powerful).  Actually everything but the phlogy you mentioned there is less powerful than the vanilla versions

[MrWiggles]

Pholg doesn't need to be nerfed. @.@

No random crits, and no air blasting are a huge debuff. I can't tell ya how naked you feel going against soldiers & demo's. I feel sorta useless not being able to airblast team mates.

The Crit System being turned off the weapons, means that you're playing flat, irrespective on how your playing. The Crit System gets kicked in when you're having a low, or having a high. Its a great system.

The huge Damage Block for when you're taunting is necessary. What happens when you taunt in game? You die. (And of course I'm not talking about taunting during start up times.) Then of course, your MmMph timer starts to go down as soon as you initiate the Taunt, which of course announces that you're about to become an eternal force of flames.

What about the health gain? Who cares. The Health Gain makes triggering the MmmmMph a strategic option, and a save your ass button, much like how medic can bust out Uber. It makes the using the MMMmmph viable, similar to how Demo swords allow them to gain health in alternative methods.
And the MmMph meter gets restarted when you go to a resupply cabinet.

There are far more wasted MMMmph then there are successful ones, and its counter strategy run parallel to that of an uber. Spread Out, Avoid, or Air Juggle.

Lets define wasted Mmmph charges. A wasted MMmph charge is when its completed, but you die, or when its completed but you visit a resupply cabinet, or you activate it, but die before your taunt is done, you die when its activated, you activate and there no one to use it on.

A somewhat decent Pyro with luck can be pretty devastating with it, and  MMMph + Uber combo, is quite opponent.  (Though the Taunt time eats a lot into the uber time.) But this isn't a unique statement for the pyro.

I switched away from the Pholg because it lacks air blast.
-------------------------
Selling my Dupes. Check Signature for Back Packs.
Buying 2 New Misc. Items for the Pyro.  Send me a PM.

[Orangebottle]

The problem with Enforcer + DR is that it's a straight upgrade. There is literally no benefit to using the default revolver with the DR. While it may not be overpowered, it's certainly unbalanced. The difference with the other weapons you listed is that they all have a trade-off

There is literally no benefit to using the default revolver, period.

Also, since when is the Sydney Sleeper a powerful upgrade to the regular Rifle? Did I miss something?

It's a fast-shooting rifle that jarates targets it doesn't outright kill at full charge. It doesn't even require you to aim as well, because it can't get headshots. Also, that entire set is incredibly OP in sniper vs sniper combat.

DR basically makes the spy invincible and invisible, there isnt a hell of alot of skill to it, there are alot of loops where a spy can grab full metal and some health, jump into enemy teams, stagger round in a blindingly obvious fashion and then stagger back to the full metal and health pile and do it all again.  DR takes all the skill out of spy.  Even if you do happen to hit a cloaked DR with any of the weps you have mentioned besides the pomson (ill pay that is almost a counter) 70% of the time the spy will be able to stagger back to his lines with 4 enemies attacking him constantly, the 90% damage reduction is just stupid.

Um, no. Flamethrowers, flare guns, volcano fragment, and throwable jars of <insert liquid> reveal him. It's also stupid easy to guess where the DR spy is going: the nearest medkit/ammo box. Four enemies attacking constantly would destroy DR spy; have you ever played as him? It's still just as difficult, because you have to get into the enemy base without any real cloak(or have a high chance of being noticed).

Problem with the enforcer is 2 fold.  Blindingly obvious one being with the DR it has no debuff at all.  Noob spys everywhere have worked this one out.

It does have a debuff. I believe I've mentioned the cloak time before. I've had several moments where my cloak has run out at the absolute worst time(IE in front of a pyro) and lead to my death. There's also the incredibly loud and obvious decloaking sound.

Second being that the revolver was already a powerful gun.  Giving the spy the ability to take down 3 full health players without reloading or requiring any serious aiming is again stupid.

That's assuming he hits them. I have problems with hitting people with the enforcer, even at close range.
 

Staggering round, 2 shotting an engi infront of 1/2 his team then happily wandering off with 2 players hammering crap out you cause you know they will never be able to take you down (16 stickies cant even kill a DR) has turned the spy from a high skill class into a bit of a joke.

Engie has it too easy, IMO. Especially with the advent of the Pomson. Remember that by nerfing the spy, you're buffing the engineer, the class that spy is designed to counter. Also, two players hammering the crap out of the spy would kill him before or after he used his DR, depending on the class. Sure, two scouts might have trouble, but a pyro and a heavy? Pow, spy is dead. Twice.

For some fun proof of this, get a friend to go kritzmed and you go DR/enforcer spy, then play him like a face up combat class with the med on you.  Better damage output than almost any other gun ruins the spy.

Do you realize how utterly ridiculous that sounds? You're saying that the Enforcer is better than any minigun, any rocket launcher, any flamethrower, and any grenade launcher.

edit, ninjaed.  And sleeper is lower powered than normal rifle, backburner lower than normal, (phlogy is getting a nerf though, its more powerful).  Actually everything but the phlogy you mentioned there is less powerful than the vanilla versions

Not really, no. Backburner does massive crit damage from behind(almost instantly killing every class), flare gun does crit damage, Southern Hospitality and Tribalman's Shiv do bleed damage, the Degreaser makes it easier to do more crits by switching to your flare gun/axtinguisher, the Phlogistinator is OP as fuck(it's the only weapon I know that can destroy an entire team in seconds flat), and the Pomson pierces targets while draining ubercharge and cloak and having infinite ammo.

[Strange guy]

the Phlogistinator is OP as fuck(it's the only weapon I know that can destroy an entire team in seconds flat)

Apparently you aren't aware of the heavy class (higher dps than crit phogistinator). The Phlog really isn't OP at all, it's damage can be high sure but it's close range and on a class with unimpressive mobility and health.