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[bhelyer]

The interface. I think nothing demonstrates it better than when setting up stockpiles using the settings menu. You have a tree of elements that gets more specific as you go along (stone->economic stone->stone X, etc). You also manipulate a cursor to a specific node in that tree. Yet depending on the depth that the node is on, there is an individual button to press, instead of just pressing enter (or clicking the mouse) on a node, and all child nodes being (de)selected. There are also three different ways to look. That kind of thing; you learn this stuff, but being able to get used to an abusive relationship doesn't make it a good relationship.

The in-game help is really bad, too. I remember having no idea of the wiki when I started (it is mentioned somewhere though, I do recall) and trying to use the '?' menu and just not getting all the information needed. A nice in-game tutorial would be a very good thing. The most vivid thing I remember from my first time starting the game was 'what is that square bit of brown (the wagon)? Are they standing on a mat?'. This is from someone who had played roguelikes previously, so starting with an explanation of what something is would be good; or perhaps starting with a tileset, but there would still be bits of ASCII in that case.

All that said, even in its current state DF is in my top-five. If I take its potential into account, it easily is number one. Taken on the release available today, the balance is just too broken and the game too unfinished for me to realistically give it that spot. But it's a really good game as is, a game which will get better as these blemishes are removed, and the game becomes more finished.

[Hydra]

It is the only reason why PCs have a HUGE edge on consoles when it comes to strategy games (and quite a few simulations as well)

Well, resolution is another issue. You want to be able to get a lot of information on your screen. But yes, mouse controls are pretty much the #1 reason.

[flap]

Regarding the manual, what I would If i were Toady, is publish/create an editor, and let the player update it. If on good enough sprouts (and it will), then toady will simply have to add it in the package...

[Andir]

Regarding the manual, what I would If i were Toady, is publish/create an editor, and let the player update it. If on good enough sprouts (and it will), then toady will simply have to add it in the package...

People read manuals?  (rhetorical question... no... they don't)

[Aqizzar]

Regarding the manual, what I would If i were Toady, is publish/create an editor, and let the player update it. If on good enough sprouts (and it will), then toady will simply have to add it in the package...

That's called the wiki.  This carries over all the problems associated with a reader-editable database, namely erroneous information.  Nonetheless, this is exactly the logic behind all the other suggestions to somehow integrate the wiki into the program, which only effective cuts out a few mouse clicks over just keeping a browser open.

Basically, it's a question of whether and why the player should have to rely on an external, third-party database for critical information on how to play the game, instead of the game (and maker) providing the information first hand.

[hermes]

Basically, it's a question of whether and why the player should have to rely on an external, third-party database for critical information on how to play the game, instead of the game (and maker) providing the information first hand.

I think the latter, the game providing information, is a must.  The game is unplayable without the wiki telling you what items you need to construct others, what ores are required for what metals and so on, not to mention the specific positioning of objects like pumps. 

And as everyone else said, the interface... standardise scrolling, selection, context sensitive menus etc...
I'd play the game much more if I didn't have to stare at my laptop keyboard trying to find the right key combinations to set a zone up   

[Jakkarra]

Regarding the manual, what I would If i were Toady, is publish/create an editor, and let the player update it. If on good enough sprouts (and it will), then toady will simply have to add it in the package...

People read manuals?  (rhetorical question... no... they don't)

well, i for one do.

any game i get has the manual read, even the large ones that came in older games, such as Eye Of the Beholder, or the old Warhammer:dark Omen.

sorry, jakkarra

[Rockphed]

People read manuals?  (rhetorical question... no... they don't)

I read manuals from time to time.  For something as complex as DF, I looked at the in game help extensively.

As for finding information in game: there is currently a list of economic stones.  In the right hand sidebar there is a list of all the reactions that the stone is used in.  If you select one of the reactions, you can see what else is used in it.  If you select a stone with k, you are shown all of its uses and, except for stones for making sharp blades, you can then select any of the uses.  Unfortunately, you can't really go about it the other way with starting at the product and figuring out the ingredients.  It would rock if the system were complete in both directions.

[Fikes]

Interesting side discussion on the Manual issue.

I recently got Tropico 1 and jumped right in. I had no idea what I was doing the first few times and restarted after a couple of years.

When I gave into the fact that I wasn't going to be able to figure it out on my own, I went to www.gamefaqs.com first, manual second, and tutorial third.

The last two options were totally useless. This is how you zoom in, this is how you move the camera, this is how you build a building. The End. Well how the hell do I build an economy!?!

It is sad, but I think this is typical. Tutorials and manuals suck. It is easier to find information online than look it up in a book and I believe lots of gamers know where to look. This is ESPICALLY true of a game as rapidly changing as DF.

However, the manual would be something that is easy enough for the fan base (us) to create with a little direction and organization. Toady could put someone in charge and that person could ask the rest of the community to submit specific documents, like workshops, the skills they use, the items they produce, and the stockpile those items are stored in.

I think this would be a fairly straight forward project for the community to take over. It could be added to the DF install as a standard Windows help file (or as a locally hosted web page with links).

Obligatory on topic comment: I think mouse support is the feature that will add the most fans with the least amount of work.

[Ltheb]

I think what turns away players is that the game is both quite vast, content wise (food/goods production, monster attacks, and just keeping dwarves alive were the challenges that most concerned me in my first fort) and it simultaneously lacks any kind of direction. I love sandbox-style games, but without any kind of initial 'tutorial' or guidance, your first fort is almost doomed to fail. (fun fact: mine didn't until I reach the 2D version hidden fun stuff countdown, but the friend who got me into the game told me how to build a farm, which is all you really need)

I think either a tutorial segment (like the game coming with a pre-gened fort in a psuedo world with scripted hazards and events and a walkthrough dialog), or a more improved UI, would do wonders toward helping new players tackle Z-Levels, Farming, Creatures/Sieges, and Trade.

DF is a massively complex game, and any improvements that make the game more intuitive make the game better for new players. (For example, when I started, I hated navigating the labyrinthine build menu, so I memorized most of the hotkeys. Build a bed? B-B. A Butcher's Shop? B-W-U, which I memorized as standing for for "bUtcher")

Aside from that, a way to 'win' might help new players who want to work toward a goal. I know a lot of requests have been made for a way for your fort to be 'saveable' so that once it reaches a certain point, it counts as self-sustaining and you could abandon it, run around in adventure mode, and then even resume the fort without reclaiming. Having a win condition like that does not mean the player has nothing more to work toward (there is still the need for a magma-waterfall, or in the upcoming versions, to conquer the other races), merely that they can earn a bit more freedom to explore the game.

[Mr. Boh]

Actually, the only thing that keeps me from playing 24/7 is the lack of sieges and the updates.

Whenever I play, I think "Well, I shouldn't get to addicted or the update will just make me have to restart EVERYTHING." Which is an annoying habit because I really want to play but I get so immersed that I hate to have to get the newest version.

Second, I wish there were much more goblin sieges, and there was some way to increase their frequency from within the game, so I could start having 24/7 sieges once my fort's defences are all set up.

Besides those two problems, I fucking LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOVEVOEOVOBUNRINGOHGODAOJSIAAUUUUGH Dwarf Fortress.

This speaks to the main reason why I get turned off to DF for months at a time. I've been playing for years and one thing I've found is that you are dependent on the game to provide excitement after a while in that when you solve the basic problems for survival and get yourself set up properly, all there is to do is wait for a siege or megabeast. I'd like to be able to start some trouble. Give the player the option to initiate things or allow for settings to be manipulated to allow for more excitement, please!

I have a feeling that a lot of this is under development or at least planned, though. I guess I'm in that minority where I find the ASCII pleasant and the UI to be fine.

Also, 6+month gaps between updates are painful (even if they've all been great).

[MrWiggles]

If he updated any sooner then the differance between releases would be less noticeable.

[Indra]

Regarding the manual, what I would If i were Toady, is publish/create an editor, and let the player update it. If on good enough sprouts (and it will), then toady will simply have to add it in the package...

People read manuals?  (rhetorical question... no... they don't)

Gamers that don't read manuals, are basically casual gamers lacking any form of intelligence. Any serious strategy gamer would eat up a manual just for that certain "edge". The complexity of a strategy game to a certain extent can be seen from the manual, as there are many elements to understand gameplay.

[ToonyMan]

Hey!  You offend me.  I read the manuals before I play.  Even Dwarf Fortress.

[Footkerchief]

Gamers that don't read manuals, are basically casual gamers lacking any form of intelligence.

No.  And reading manuals or playing strategy games doesn't make you smart either.