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Keep it as is

3 (12%)

Change it to a full Jester, with game-end on win

1 (4%)

Change it to a full Jester, but without game-end on win

5 (20%)

Change it to a full Jester, with game-end on win AFTER day 3

3 (12%)

Change it to a Jester with the loss of the Next Day phase

4 (16%)

Remove it entirely

9 (36%)

Other (explain)

0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 25

[fillipk]

I would love to contribute to this discussion but I can't find the Mindstealer role in the list of possible roles or proposed roles, am I just missing it or is it somewhere special?

Harvester
    Race: Alien
    Goal: Kill/Find
    Rules: The Harvester is collecting things for its own purposes. There are two different types of Harvesters. A Harvester may choose to Abduct another player during the Night Phase.
      Organ Harvester - The Abducted player is killed. The Harvester acts as a Doom Speaker, and is building an Abomination. After some # of nights (based on player count) the Abomination is released and performs a Night Kill attempt on every player.
      Mind Stealer - Copies the Role from the Abducted player for the following day/night as well as the Win Condition of that player until a new one is acquired. The abducted player reverts to a vanilla role for the rest of the game(Aliens will all become survivors). If the Mind Stealer doesn't have any other goal, then it is a Survivor.     
    Tech: 0 Slots
    Victory: Organ Harvester wins when all other players are dead. The OH must be alive at the end of the game. The Mind Stealer wins if its current win condition is fulfilled.

I bolded the Mind Stealer section. That is, obviously, the old rules on it that I am considering replacing.

Thank you, I feel stupid now.

Yeah that role looks like an easy victory if you can avoid attracting attention.  I like the idea of stealing roles for role points that was thrown about as it doesn't actually remove any player from the game just acts like an ice cream man.  I think it should give the roles back if it died to incentivize finding and killing them but not requiring it for a town victory.  That way people don't feel pressured to go after it unless it becomes a huge nuisance and the town isn't immediately breathing down their back.  Depending on how many points of roles it needs it should get 1-2 small techs, as those are the one use items to help it with its wincon.   

[doll]

In the game where it appeared it basically acted as a supercop because it learnt the full roles of players and ended up abducting town to switch over to their wincon when it was ready to close out the game, more or less.

The Mind Stealer was outed on D2 in that game (by a player it had PM'd it's role), incidentally.

[Mephansteras]

Yeah, way too powerful and pro-town with that rule set. It's why I want to change it.

[webadict]

I think I'm going to go with the idea of the Mind Stealer needing X successful abductions to win the game. A stolen role is added to their Collection, which will include 3 random roles at the start of the game. Should the Mind Stealer be killed, all roles in their Collection will be randomly distributed to players who have a Vanilla Role of some sort. So, vanilla town, vanilla dopp, maybe Survivor Alien?

Survivor Aliens getting a role would make things interesting. Their win-con would stay the same, but they'd suddenly have some interesting and unexpected role to possibly help them fulfill it.

One thought on the Mind Stealer's win-con: What if they needed to steal X 'points' worth of roles, and got tech? That way they could take some investigative tech to try and bag better roles (Wardens, Advanced Dopps, stuff like that), or Defensive Tech to try and say alive long enough to grab enough randomly selected roles? It would certainly make the role a little more interesting to play, although it'd be slightly harder to balance. Still, I could pull the points off of my weights spreadsheet that the perl script uses to generate the set-up, so it wouldn't be too bad.

Thoughts?

It's survivor with a twist. More power. Downside is that it collects powers that it doesn't want to use, since it has to abduct, unless it grabs a day power role. So really is just an ICM with the ability to give (most likely Dopp) power rules on death. In that sense, it's probably more likely to be killed if found out. On the other hand, I would hate for the game to be broken because a Dopp got her hands on a vigilante role.

Maybe it's like Xeno, but more powerful and potentially game breaking. I feel like its a 5.5/10. It doesn't feel like it adds more than the mind wiping, but that generally feels anti fun. It wouldn't ruin the game, but it wouldn't add a whole lot.

But that's, like, my opinion, man.

[Mephansteras]

It is similar to the Xenozoologist in a lot of ways, but I think giving it reasons to use investigative techs would make it more interesting to play as. And it fills a role in the abduction set by giving people back. It is also less survivor since it's win condition, like the Xenozoologist, depends on accomplishing a set goal rather than simply living to the end of the game.

Power imbalance from the Mind Stealer dying is an issue, of course, but that is partially solved by the addition of extra roles at the start. I can simply not let game breaking role combinations come back out.

[webadict]

It is similar to the Xenozoologist in a lot of ways, but I think giving it reasons to use investigative techs would make it more interesting to play as. And it fills a role in the abduction set by giving people back. It is also less survivor since it's win condition, like the Xenozoologist, depends on accomplishing a set goal rather than simply living to the end of the game.

Power imbalance from the Mind Stealer dying is an issue, of course, but that is partially solved by the addition of extra roles at the start. I can simply not let game breaking role combinations come back out.

Yeah. To me, it feels anti fun for both the MS and the stolen player, since the MS doesn't really have a chance to use the role they stole (They have to abduct) and the stolen from (They are powerless.) It's not big enough to try to argue much against it or not play, but it certainly could be better. An incentive to use these roles would really set it apart.

[Mephansteras]

I've been thinking about that, but what do you do with some of the roles? Bodyguards are common in most games, but that's the last power an alien would want to use. Most of the others are ok, but don't necessarily help the alien win more than abducting random people would.

Hmm...what about some sort of Robot Buddy instead of tech that could be given the Role ability for the next night? Then you'd have the alien abducting and the RB performing whatever the action is? Would make it more fun, I think, and let the alien more safely use abilities like Agent or Reporter without getting whacked by War Vets and the like.

[webadict]

I've been thinking about that, but what do you do with some of the roles? Bodyguards are common in most games, but that's the last power an alien would want to use. Most of the others are ok, but don't necessarily help the alien win more than abducting random people would.

Hmm...what about some sort of Robot Buddy instead of tech that could be given the Role ability for the next night? Then you'd have the alien abducting and the RB performing whatever the action is? Would make it more fun, I think, and let the alien more safely use abilities like Agent or Reporter without getting whacked by War Vets and the like.

That sounds doable and much more fun, so long as it has limited usage. I would say each role can be used once (or the buddy is killed ) It could double as a personal shield, limiting their tech, but picking what a MS would have anyway (MS ahould always start with something like a Doctor or BG role.)

[Mephansteras]

Yeah, I was thinking each role stolen would have one use in the RB.

Question is, is the RB a single thing that is gone if killed, or does the MS have backups? I'll have to run some scenarios for that, see how it'd effect the balance.

[Leafsnail]

Why would people know who the Mind Stealer is?

Isn't the Mind Stealer putting the people it is abducting back into the town?
It's not going to take more than a cycle to figure out who the Mind Stealer is if the abducted player outs them as soon as they get back to town.

I think that Leafsnail's wincon change comments are directed towards me.

I think having your wincon changed is a lot less fun in practice than it is in theory (it makes all the effort you put into the game previously meaningless) and I wouldn't like a role that causes it to happen pretty much randomly a bunch of times. You'd also have to make sure Doppelgangers are immune to it.

No, you'd have to make sure that Doppelgangers are not immune to it.
However, I was considering this from a naked standpoint and not considering the existing administrative techniques, and their inability to operate this sort of situation.

If a doppelganger gets swapped and then swaps again to town/third party they can just say who their partners were.

[webadict]

Yeah, I was thinking each role stolen would have one use in the RB.

Question is, is the RB a single thing that is gone if killed, or does the MS have backups? I'll have to run some scenarios for that, see how it'd effect the balance.

I'm more of a fan of a "single use item" (one life), with upgradeable modules in place of tech slots. It seems a little more balanced, and makes the MS a little more fragile.

[Mephansteras]

If a doppelganger gets swapped and then swaps again to town/third party they can just say who their partners were.

Again, the Mind Stealer effects ROLE, not FACTION. A Vanilla Doppelganger is still a Doppelganger. A Dopp who gets an Agent Role that used to belong to a Town player is just a Dopp Agent. Nobody changes win-cons with this setup except aliens who become Survivors. And they stay Survivor even after getting a Role back unless it is an Alien Role. An Alien Warden, for example, would still have a Survivor win-con, they'd just have a useful power to bargain for their life with.

Yeah, I was thinking each role stolen would have one use in the RB.

Question is, is the RB a single thing that is gone if killed, or does the MS have backups? I'll have to run some scenarios for that, see how it'd effect the balance.

I'm more of a fan of a "single use item" (one life), with upgradeable modules in place of tech slots. It seems a little more balanced, and makes the MS a little more fragile.

What do you mean by upgradeable modules?

[webadict]

Think along the lines of giving MS the choice of taking a BR or a Tech and then the ability to grab an additional stolen mind or something (say BG and Inv came standard or something.) Or, they might have the choice of Extra Plating on their RB. I'm honestly just spitballing on what might work.

[Mephansteras]

Ah, I see.

[TheBiggerFish]

Hi.