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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 2458593 times)

martinuzz

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47370 on: January 14, 2022, 02:18:16 pm »

US intelligence services and government have just accused Putin of sending saboteurs to Ukraine to stage a false flag attack on Pro-Russian seperatists, to create a casus belli.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2022, 02:34:36 pm by martinuzz »
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None

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47371 on: January 14, 2022, 02:40:40 pm »

..Sorry, Starver, are you arguing that a child that was trafficked may or may not have been just 'enjoying her adult life' after/during being trafficked and it just happened to be nobility/the sociopolitical elite, the class of people to whom she was trafficked, that she chose to enjoy her adult life with, while still being underage, but was still okay because she doesn't 'look like jailbait,' thereby making Andrew the victim because of the public visibility of the case? And we know Andrew is the victim because otherwise the social elite would've done a better job burying this from the public?

If the social elite/nobility are powerful enough to bury a story like this, surely they could ruin someone's life if, say, they tried not to have sexual relations with such a person, thereby making the unequal power dynamic as much of a factor of the fact that the accuser was literally a child and therefore could not consent?
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hector13

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47372 on: January 14, 2022, 04:59:09 pm »

That photo is a photo of the girl he was purported to have abused and the woman who was recently convicted of trafficking her and other young girls to at least one rich client.
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lemon10

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47373 on: January 14, 2022, 05:43:52 pm »

..Sorry, Starver, are you arguing that a child that was trafficked may or may not have been just 'enjoying her adult life' after/during being trafficked and it just happened to be nobility/the sociopolitical elite, the class of people to whom she was trafficked, that she chose to enjoy her adult life with, while still being underage, but was still okay because she doesn't 'look like jailbait,' thereby making Andrew the victim because of the public visibility of the case? And we know Andrew is the victim because otherwise the social elite would've done a better job burying this from the public?

If the social elite/nobility are powerful enough to bury a story like this, surely they could ruin someone's life if, say, they tried not to have sexual relations with such a person, thereby making the unequal power dynamic as much of a factor of the fact that the accuser was literally a child and therefore could not consent?
From what I can tell no, that is not what he is saying.

He's saying that Andrew might have been entrapped, not by the girl, who was and remains blameless, but by Epstein, who intentionally set him up with an underage girl so that he would have blackmail material if he needed it.

There are two basic possibilities to how this played out, and the difficulty is that there in no evidence which one it actually is.
1) He went some parties with Epstein or at his place, possibly knowing that Epstein arranged people to sleep with the guests. Even though this may be skeevy, nothing about this is illegal in any way.
1a) He did this knowing that Epstein was paying women to sleep with him, which while illegal, isn't *really* morally wrong.
2) He intentionally went to Epstein's place to sleep with underage girls after asking Epstin or one of his agents to set it up, either via subtext or explicitly. This is obviously both illegal and morally wrong.

If its 2 then yeah, its obvious he's trash and a scumbag, but if its 1 and he went to a party and slept with someone that went "Oh my god your a prince, can I get a photo with you" then there isn't anything wrong there at all.

Obviously the dead Epstein knows the truth, and so presumably does Maxwell, but as far as I can tell nobody else aside from the Prince has real proof on the matter. That said, some of the shit that the Prince said (eg. "I can't sweat" which is almost certainly a stupid lie) has some really bad optics involved.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2022, 05:54:12 pm by lemon10 »
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Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47374 on: January 14, 2022, 06:41:50 pm »

..Sorry, Starver, are you arguing that a child [...]
Stopping you right there. No. I'm not justifying the 'underaged' bit as being a child's choice to act as if an adult.

There was clear malice aforethought by groomers (Ms Maxwell, certainly) to target girls too young to consent and put them into sexual situations. That's wrong. Those who exploited/caused-to-be-exploited them are culpable. The question is whether that applies to Andrew (assuming anything even happened, and that nothing did has long been his assertion) or if the limit of his intent was to be happily flattered by the attentions of young-but-adult women that he did not know the true age of.

It still paints him in a not very good light, and compounds degrees of toxic masculinity with other degrees of toxic privilege. Possible statutory guilt if it ever came to a criminal case, depending upon which jurisdiction's rules are applied, I'm fairly certain. But otherwise foolish and possibly even manipulated himself (differently! ...not wishing to equate the two sides of this equation).


Trying not to judge the situation myself, just presenting the various plausible possibilities for someone who hadn't been as swamped by all the tabloid (and even MM) news as everyone here has. And I knew I'd be in potentially dangerous territory by not sticking to just the allegations but also the counters. You zeroed in on an interpretation I didn't even think I was putting forward.


[[...and ninjaed with a better reply. Whilst taking many pains with this one to not fall into another trap.  Yes, that's my generally-intended gist, Lemon. Though the possibility of blackmail could also be a sideline to it being comparatively easier to manipulate any given underage 'hostess' with exciting promises than to hire a legally-consenting one who is old enough to have a truer knowledge of her own worth, etc, etc (and perhaps then having far more developed manipulative ideas of their own). I don't think we can reduce it to just one aspect of deviousness. We weren't there, we don't know. Those who were there may have been under different impressions at the time, and with the passage of time may even not be giving the exact truth of what actually happened, including with varying degrees of conscious self-deception. It's gonna be messy untangling all that as I said, and I'm not sure it'll even be unravelled equitably.]]
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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47375 on: January 14, 2022, 08:33:02 pm »

That makes much more sense, thanks for the clarification/sorry for requiring the clarification. Your post was... obtuse.
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Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47376 on: January 14, 2022, 09:35:18 pm »

I have two modes. Underexplain and overexplain. I tend towards the latter to attemlt to remedy the former, then do a little bit more of the latter to remedy the initial attempt of the latter...

Rarely do I intend obtuseness, but the art of avoiding it is a trick I've never really learnt.
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47377 on: January 14, 2022, 10:46:35 pm »


That said, some of the shit that the Prince said (eg. "I can't sweat" which is almost certainly a stupid lie) has some really bad optics involved.


I dunno. Royals are notoriously inbred. There ARE such disorders. Dunno if the prince has such a disorder or not, but the disorders certainly exist.

https://rarediseases.org/rare-diseases/hypohidrotic-ectodermal-dysplasia/
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Vector

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47378 on: January 14, 2022, 10:47:55 pm »

I thought I had heard it was connected in some way to his military service . . .
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Duuvian

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47379 on: January 15, 2022, 01:02:38 am »

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/1/13/un-chief-warns-millions-of-afghans-are-on-verge-of-death

First paragraph: "The United Nations chief has warned that millions of Afghans are on the “verge of death”, urging the international community to fund the UN’s $5bn humanitarian appeal, release Afghanistan’s frozen assets and jump-start its banking system to avert economic and social collapse."

My recommendation to leaders beyond help them immediately as ably as you may would be to help establish an agricultural tractor factory there. I once many years ago read one of my Grandpa's Old Books and in that much older version of the book it described the effects of the introduction of mechanized farming on a large scale. (the publisher's description does not reflect what I remember of it; it was largely economic statistics and explanations of processses and events and not the referenced personal historic accounts so much that I recall)

One thing I found interesting and remembered was this. Initially tractors were supplied to the highest producing and wealthiest trial villages first, in the assumption that it would increase the success already found there. However, returns were less than expected and if I remember correctly less than 10% increase in production. In a trial program, a poor and under producing village was targetted for mechanization. While I don't recall the percentage increase in yield, I believe I remember it being very much more than substantial for the poorer village. Unfortunately I can't locate my copy of the book to find that specific chapter and check the numbers, but it was a substantial enough difference to be remarkable. It's also possible that fertilizer was supplied as well as there was a substantial amount in the book about fertilizer distribution, but I can't remember if that was a factor in the example I gave.

Many manufacturers in countries surrounding Afghanistan seem to produce tractors and sell them in Afghanistan. Here is a completely random example from a quick search.
https://tafetractors.com/afghanistan/

Another quick search can't find an Afghanistan located manufacturer. Here is a sad result for example:
https://agriculturecontact.com/companies/agricultural-mechanization/tractors/in/afghanistan

It may simply mean  that I did not write the search term correctly to find the result.

Here is a related article that I found from 2018.
https://www.worldbank.org/en/country/afghanistan/publication/unlocking-potential-of-agriculture-for-afghanistan-growth

Spoiler: Portion (click to show/hide)

From the following 2010 article, it appears Afghanistan in 2010 largely had private tractor owners as contractors for farmers rather than farmers largely owning their own mechanization or having it provided through a community pool.

https://agsci.colostate.edu/smallholderagriculture/assisting-smallholders-producers-an-innovative-approach/

This article supports the approach of private ownership and small contractors in less mechanized places.  It says an option for workers displaced or otherwise leaving employment in farming is private tractor ownership and working as a contractor for farmers (relates to the spoiler). However I am unsure if the number of functional tractors in Afghanistan is sufficient or if lack of mechanization is contributing to famine as I haven't found a source for that. I also don't know how much further land could be cultivated with further agricultural mechanization. Here is a document I did find, from the prior millenia oddly

The Agricultural Survey of Afghanistan (1989) by the Swedish Committee for Afghanistan
http://www.afghandata.org:8080/xmlui/bitstream/handle/azu/4609/azu_acku_pamphlet_s471_a3_a477_1989_w.pdf
It has some details on mechanization of farming but it is ancient. It would be a useful work to update it I think.

Thus my small suggestion is a tractor factory for affordable but reliable agricultural tractor models, built in Afghanistan, if conditions of mechanization in Afghanistan mean that further mechanization of agriculture would be desirable. If at all possible with plans to switch the lines to electric motors if or when that is feasible in the area, as that seems to be the standard for the future at least until newer tractor engine technologies are invented and spreading. Whether nationalized or private or owned through worker's shares I have no suggestion, having not taken time to study the possibilities of types of capital ownership in Afghanistan.

Here also is an interesting idea that may be of some benefit.
https://agsci.colostate.edu/smallholderagriculture/most-effective-project-enhancing-access-to-contract-mechanization-via-reconditioned-used-tractors/
If you look at the craigslist section for tractors for sale in almost any US region you will find some.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2022, 03:00:57 am by Duuvian »
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Lord Shonus

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47380 on: January 15, 2022, 02:28:03 am »

The 11/6 charges are getting into the serious phases now. The founder of the Oath Keepers, along with 10 of his associates, are being charged with "seditious conspiracy", a charge just short of treason (which the US system makes almost impossible to impose). If convicted, they face uncapped fines and up to twenty years in Federal prison.
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nenjin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47381 on: Today at 01:34:55 am »

If you like Leonard French, you can have him read out the salient points of the indictment.

There's so much...cringe in there. Amateur hour. Slapdash organization. Some serious Patriot fantasy going on.

But also a lot of guns and a real desire and hope for violence amongst some of them.

The people named directly in the indictment are fucked, by their own words and actions.

I don't know if you can draw a direct link between Trump's incitement and these guys. They're on record as basically saying "screw it, Trump isn't going to do anything, it's up to us!" In the end, I don't think it will stick to Trump. But that's not even the start of his troubles now.
« Last Edit: Today at 01:36:38 am by nenjin »
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