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[Sharp]

So if we are still staying on Diana, then interesting result on in Origen vs Roccat match with Diana rushing Nashor's

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Diana loses pretty hard.
To be fair OG were ahead from the start with early invade gaining control. Nukeduck's Diana did make use of Nashor's to take down 1 tower but Full health Diana vs a Maokai whose only MR was from Merc Treads had to run away from the fight even with Nashor's which meant passive got proc'd 2, maybe 3 times. An abyssal would have been better for the fight but not likely to get tower then. The nashors was good for the split push but Origen had so much control and pressure that there wasn't really time to splitpush, the trade was 1 inner tower each except most of Roccat died while Diana splitpush bot.
Nashor's did not help in any fight.

Anyway it's hard to see examples where Nashor's is good for Diana when actually fighting, it just only seems like a useful purchase for splitpushing, but if that is your strategy maybe it is better off using Jax, Tryndamere or Rengar instead.

[Cthulhu]

I've never had much trouble hitting Veigar's Q.  His W a little more but the stun goes a long way.  Back in DFG days the W was useless, people were always dead before it hit.

Plus his Q can double-hit now.  If you're good you can get a lot more AP per wave which translates to donking people harder, DFG or no. 

[Toady One]

I have to come in here sometimes.  People should try to maintain their perspective in this thread.  At the very least, please don't direct attacks at each other.

[Jopax]

It's like Phreak is trying to be cringey, blerghhhh...

Still, pretty nice stuff going on, love all the stupid shit both teams do, makes for some entertaining stuff for the most part

[IronyOwl]

I've only played him a few times since the rework, but yeah, Veigar's new Q seems generally better than his old one as far as Q-farming and harass. If you're freefarming you can double it up pretty frequently, if you're lucky you can farm and harass at the same time, and if you're getting zoned you can still usually respond and farm at least a little. Dark Matter is okay for not-Q farming, but awfully slow to try to harass with.

[UXLZ]

On a note, if you ever used your Q on something that wasn't the enemy champion's face (repeatedly and constantly) before it was at the very least level 4 you were doing it wrong.

[frostshotgg]

At rank 1 it didn't (and still doesn't) do enough damage to warrant the mana cost. I guess now if you're +1'ing and getting harass in at the same time or getting a +2 instead it's worth the mana. With that said, until his W gets its crazy ratio reduced, I will always be spending my early game mana on it using it to hard shove. Most champs can't nuke entire waves from the start and lose a lot of cs to being pushed on that hard.

[frostshotgg]

Trading at level 1/2 in mid lane is like a wet noodle contest. Yes, your noodle is ever so slightly less floppy, but it doesn't matter because in 3 or 4 levels that damage won't matter because you're 1shotting each other.

[UXLZ]

@Moonlit: It's impossible to hit anyone with the W without first landing the E, which is also (nearly) impossible to hit in a situation that isn't already favorable to you.

Actually, that's one of the things that pissed me off the most about the E changes, simply because it made it so hitting your W consistently (or ever) far harder than it should have.

@Frost: The point was to get them down to around 60-70% HP, where you'd be able to gib them at level six with E-Ignite-R-Q-(Maybe W). I never had issues with Mana unless I was using the Q to farm or forced to W at an inefficient moment to waveclear.

*edit*

Hmm, it's possible I might be giving the new Q too little credit. I seem to recall its projectile speed as being significantly lower than what it is now, but that might just be perspective. Still, the issue stands, they stripped away all of Veigar's consistency.

Oh, also, the other reason you never used Q on minions was for trading purposes. If you farmed Q NON-STOP (someone did it in a custom game) until it hit level 5 you'd get something like a measly 40 AP, not really worth losing all lane pressure, eh?
It was (and still is, even more so now, even if it's less consistent to hit) Veigar's only trading tool. W needed E, which needed to be rank 2, and it didn't do that much damage until laning phase was basically over. (Not to mention the mana costs.)

[UXLZ]

Not enough damage. His ult does LESS damage than it used to, and DFG no longer exists. His E is 100% necessary to land is W, not the Q. If you're killing someone with Q+R+Ignite, you're probably already winning quite hard.

[frostshotgg]

Basically, the problem with Veigar and his rework is that he's made for one very specific purpose: To blow someone up and run away laughing. He has 3 damaging skills, so that already sets him behind a little. His R, which is just pure damage, no utility, got its ratio reduced = worse at its only job. His W (which now does roughly the same damage as R against non-APs) functionally got nerfed, because the only way to reliably hit it is to stun someone with his E. Which got a huge nerf in that it's actually dodgable now = he no longer can instantly guarantee that he can kill someone. His Q got buffed in range and being able to hit 2 targets, but it paid the enormous price of not being point-and-click, which massively reduces its reliability and efficacy in killing things. On top of that the cooldown got nerfed, just to slap him in the face a bit.

All of this happened immediately after he lost his single most important item, DFG, and Ludens is not even close to equivalent for Veigar.

He's almost in a decent place now, but that's because they've actually buffed his Q's range/speed to something workable for a skillshot so he can kinda-sorta poke, but I still don't see any compelling reason to pick Veig over any other burst mage. He just doesn't bring the insane and insanely reliable burst he used to.

[Astral]

I don't even get why people get Luden's on Veigar anymore. It seriously hinders your ability to farm Q, in my experience. Better to get some CDR, such as Morello's, or some survivability, so that you can keep stacking that Q.

[UXLZ]

I'd say that's a relatively fair assessment of what happened. Riot made his E super unreliable, which made his E-reliant unreliable W functionally non-existent for anything other than wave clear. Then they made his Q unreliable, because that seemed like a good idea (they also raised the cooldown juuust so its unreliability would hurt you even more.) Then, as the only remaining reliable thing in Veigar's kit, they nerfed his ultimate. Because, uh... A 1.2 AP scaling on a single target point and click ability that does literally nothing but damage is really... OP or something?

See, the philosophy around champion balance/design is that everyone should have something that makes them "unfair" (that's why they're played, it sets them apart from the others.)

Fizz has his pole.
Lee Sin has 37 abilities.
Shaco has a stealth-blink and a good first clear.
Ekko has his entire kit.
Yasuo has his entire kit.
Riven has way too many dashes.
Amumu has absurd sustained damage and amazing initiation.
Vlad has manaless sustain.
Vayne has %health maximum true damage.
Fiora has %health maximum true damage and spell immunity.
Twisted Fate has a short cooldown 2 second stun and a massive-ranged teleport.
Pantheon has his passive, a point-and-click stun (on a jungle assassin) and a massive-ranged movement ability.

The list goes on and on, and while the individual points may vary, the general gist remains the same. Veigar's unfair thing, which was his awesome stun (one offset by massive mana costs and a high cooldown, it should be noted) Riot decided to nerf it into the ground (sure, teamfights blah de blah but it's almost completely useless in lane.) Then nerf the rest of his kit just because. This was in response to losing his most core item, by the way. (I cannot think of another champion MORE reliant on a single item than Veigar was on DFG. Old!Morde and Hextech is the only thing I can think of off the top of my head.) 

He's almost in a decent place now, but that's because they've actually buffed his Q's range/speed to something workable for a skillshot so he can kinda-sorta poke, but I still don't see any compelling reason to pick Veig over any other burst mage. He just doesn't bring the insane and insanely reliable burst he used to.

So they did buff the Q's skillshotiness? I thought it felt a bit less utterly useless than it initially did. (Only a little bit, though.)

If you want an immobile high-damage mage that scales really well into late game, has a mana sustain passive, fairly good CC, a lined skillshot Q that pierces enemies and a delayed W that is REALLY nasty to get hit by, then I'm afraid he's your only choi-ohwait, Xerath does almost everything that Veigar does, but better, from further away, with no mana issues.

[Flying Dice]

E-eh, I'd sort of disagree. Xerath's in the same vein as Veigar and Brand of the old-fashioned immobile burst mage, but he's got a lot less utility in teamfights (but arguably more in skirmishes), and his ult is incredibly unreliable. Despite the nerfs the little guy still has his niche of "APC disappears now". The main thing is that you absolutely have to get CDR on him now, because your Q poke represents much more damage than it used to.

But yes, to the question above, Q+R is nowhere near enough damage. Even back during the DFG days it usually wasn't. That's why harassing rather than farming with your Q is even more important now: it's harder to get your stun + W off, so you need them to be lower when you hit level 6. Even back before the rework it was still a good idea to use Q for harass early because your stun at low ranks doesn't last long enough to guarantee that the W will hit -- your rank 1 stun lasts for 1.5s, your W takes 1.2s to fall, and you're going to lose at least a fraction of a second of stun during your rotation, so there's a chance for them to use an ability or flash to escape if you aren't on super-low ping and completely on-point with your rotation.

Honestly, in lane phase the threat of E was as useful as actually using it; as long as it was up (and your opponent had a brain) they'd be reluctant to engage, and it was fairly easy to zone. That hasn't changed. It only really hurts his ability to 100-0 someone in lane with no warning, and frankly despite liking him I'm glad that's gone, for much the same reason that I'm glad that AP Tristana doesn't work any more, despite that being what I used to jump from S3 to S1 and into my promos again the one time I bothered to play ranked. I just wish that Riot would have the integrity to do the same to all the low-counterplay bursters, but of course they're only going to target the ones that can't make flashy plays.

RIP AP Tristana, you were too broken for this world.

e: If I had to describe why Veigar was nerfed, I think Scarra said it better: His E is functionally the same thing as a lot of other champions' ults. His "broken" niche now, such that it is, is that he punishes other APCs incredibly hard, forcing them to either build tankier than normal, or get blown up if they ever get too close. The unfortunate element of that is that it also means that he's hard-countered by a lot of popular midlaners simply by virtue of them being AD.

[frostshotgg]

When they made his Q into a skillshot, they increased the range 2 Teemos, but left the width and speed the same. The next patch they increased the speed a wee bit, and then next patch added another 1 Teemo. That and making his E stop dashes is all the balance he's gotten since his rework.