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[Bohandas]

Several people on this forum have proposed implementing some manner of sprite graphics as the default means of depicting creatures in-game. I do not agree with these proposals. Many of the threads making such proposals have drawn arguments from others who do not agree with them. There is one important argument against sprite graphics, however, that seems to have been largely ignored or overlooked by both its proponents and its detractors.

Sprite graphics, as well as the majority of non-abstract videogame graphics up to and including modern 3d rendering, are inherently limited in what they can accurately depict. In many cases the picture displayed may inaccurately reflect, or even directly contradict, what is actually meant to be happening in game. This is especially true for Dwarf Fortress, given the game's unique combat system which more often than not plays out like the Black Knight scene from Monty Python And The Holy Grail, with combatants frequently winding up missing arms, legs, (or other extremities, such as heads, tails, tentacles, et cetera). A sprite that depicts a creature with a full compliment of limbs directly contradicts such post-combat descriptions (This could hypothetically be corrected with seperate sprites for every conceivable type of injury, but that would slow development, limit the game's open-endedness, and cause the game to tax one's computer processor even more than it already does). This may seem like a trivial point, but consider combat in dwarf fortress as compared to other games that make use of props such as standard stock death animations, bodies that fade from view after being killed, enemies that retain the same appearance until they die, and other such crutches. Abstraction can actually be more graphic.

[aepurniet]

I whole heartedly disagree. I think most people would prefer having a sprite engine.  One can make the default sprite set the standard terminal font.  This is what we have now.  The arguement is to increase the power of the sprite engine, in order to more accurately reflect the state of the current game world.  Is your arguement to take away most of the work that is in there?  What part of the 'B' would you recomend lobbing off to accurately reflect a grizzly bear with one arm?  All the sprites (whether an image taken from a terminal font set, or an actual image) are entirely symbolic. They only represent some base piece of information.  Its all part of the learning cliff to figure out what that information is.  I for one have trouble (well some) remembering the difference between what 'a', 'A' in all the different color combinations are.  Its a lot easier for some to tell one is an alligator and the other an antman with actual sprites.

Anyway, I think these argements are mute, since most people making them are saying we should remove features of DF. Don't worry, we will never unmatrixize your game, but please don't ask to remove features others are very fond of.  If you think that toady should spend his time on things other than improving the sprite engine, please suggest those instead, and/or head over to the eternal sggestions poll.

[Mckee]

Bohandas isn't suggesting that we lop parts of the Asci of to represent lost limbs, thats a total strawman arguement. However, one of the many arguements FOR sprites is that it is more accurate, which he is attempting to disprove with the disfigurement arguement. I agree with him, in part at least. A totally symbolic representation is clearer than a somewhat symbolic representation. The Asci isn't meant to resemble anything, I find that the complete disconection from visuals makes it easier to maintain personal imagination, whilst semi visual representations (sprites) remove a some of that.

Secondly, the sprites cannot possibly cover everything in game. Procedurally generated beasts like FBs would either have to have a stock sprite, or a sybolic representation, leading to either an unrealistic sprite, or a mixed visual scheme.

That aside, Toady really shouldnt be wasting time on what is essentially an surplus feature. The game is playable with Asci graphics, and users can swap in sprites. The suggestion/s to make Toady add in a default sprite pack seems wasteful and pointless.

[Mugros]

Another flawed argument against better graphics.
First, DF is not ASCII. It is already using sprites. But the sprites are all tiles and look like characters in the default tileset.

And then let me check your argument. So you say that the current "ASCII" is better than any other graphics technology because sprites or 3D are limited to what they depict. Yet you forget that the current mode is far more limited than the other methods. This makes no sense.
It's like a game developer in the 90s who would say "Oh, we can't make a tennis game that has photorealistic graphics... so let's just do another Pong game."

And i don't know where or when someone suggested to use separate sprite graphics to depict every kind of damage or detail. Of course this makes no sense for DF considering the amount of detail in the game. The detail overload in the game would transfer to a information overload in the graphics and this is surely not desirable.
But improving the graphics beyond simple tiles would be beneficial. e.g. there could be indicators on the dwarf sprite to show the current state, like thirsty, hungry, bad mood etc. This would be better than the alternating tiles right now.

[smokingwreckage]

I find sprites much easier to "read". That is my entire argument.

The problem with the OP argument is this: There is no quantitative difference between a smiley face representing a maimed dwarf and a small dwarf icon representing a maimed dwarf. Both are representations. How does this affect what should or should not be the default graphics?

[Ephemeriis]

I find sprites much easier to "read". That is my entire argument.

The problem with the OP argument is this: There is no quantitative difference between a smiley face representing a maimed dwarf and a small dwarf icon representing a maimed dwarf. Both are representations. How does this affect what should or should not be the default graphics?

Exactly.

Pretty much any representation that falls short of modeling each and every limb/tissue/organ and allowing them to be individually mangled/bruised/punctured/broken/severed is going to fall short in DF.

Fine, your happy little dwarf sprite shows too many limbs...

Well, your 'e' or or 'g' or whatever doesn't show any limbs at all.

You can certainly argue that an ASCII-esque interface forces you to use your imagination, where you could get lazy with something sprite-based.  But I haven't found that to be the case myself.  I'm still imagining all the horrendous injuries and dramatic battles and quirky physical differences in my dwarves...  I just find it easier to visually identify something vaguely-dogshaped as a dog, than to equate a 'd' to a dog.

[Megaman_zx]

personally i can barely understand classic df screenshots but i vote to keep the ascii because it is what makes dwarf fortress so unique... besides all the world generation and epic stuff we enjoy about it... when you tell someone you're playing dwarf fortress you have to mention its an ascii based game and without that it just wouldn't be as dwarfy.

[shadowclasper]

Rather than a default sprite engine, why not make a website that stores graphic sets easily and neatly for everyone >> a large database that allows you to BROWSE the graphics set.

Put a link on the front page of the DF game, scroll down to it, open it, it opens your default webbrowser to the database where simple and conscise instructions on how to install graphics sets are.

BOOM! Suddenly the graphics problem is pretty much solved >> or at least patched up until such a time that we're no longer in FUCKING ALPHA WHERE GAMEPLAY DESIGN TRUMPS GRAPHICS

Look people... I can't express this enough. Dwarf Fortress is a game in ALPHA. It will likely be in alpha for another decade at the very least. It might be in Alpha for the rest of it's existence (if we assume Toady croaks, hardy-har-har, before he finishes it). We have the ability to install graphics. There are amazing graphics sets out there in the form of Mayday, Phobeus, and Ironhand's sets. They look amazing, they contain LOADS of info. They are truly wonderful and get the job done beautifully. We have enough to be GETTING BY considering this is in ALPHA. Toady should focus on BIGGER problems. Namely, implementing features of the game and making the interface smoother. Focusing on -gameplay- for god's sake.

Graphics, in the grand scheme of things, is not all that important, it's important in LATER stages. It's important for FINAL BUILDS. If it gets the message across to the testers (and that is, my friends, what we are. An enormous group of unpaid testers) then it's doing it's fucking job for the time being.

[Mugros]

When I'm talking about improving the graphics I'm not talking about changing the default tileset or making it easier to change it.

[IT 000]

Tilesets are all good and dandy. I don't think that Bohandas was smashing those. Instead I believe he was targeting the group of people who think that DF should have graphics rivaling Oblivion.

BOOM! Suddenly the graphics problem is pretty much solved >> or at least patched up until such a time that we're no longer in FUCKING ALPHA WHERE GAMEPLAY DESIGN TRUMPS GRAPHICS

This is a very very poor ideology. You want to tell me that a game had great story, character, plot, atmosphere, and development of said character. Would still be inferior to a game with the cliche characters and a plot that makes "The Room" look like Shakespeare?

Just because it had better graphics?

The problem with the OP argument is this: There is no quantitative difference between a smiley face representing a maimed dwarf and a small dwarf icon representing a maimed dwarf. Both are representations. How does this affect what should or should not be the default graphics?

A maimed dwarf flashes a red plus with a white background when it is maimed significantly. Very hard to miss.

But improving the graphics beyond simple tiles would be beneficial. e.g. there could be indicators on the dwarf sprite to show the current state, like thirsty, hungry, bad mood etc. This would be better than the alternating tiles right now.

Make a graphics tileset. Or make a few dozen. Then please come back and tell us your opinion If I had to make a graphic, for each graphic to show if they were hungry/sad/depressed whatever I would've gone stark raving mad. That's at least a dozen different graphics, for the fifty or so graphics I have. And I'm not even done making them! I haven't even touched animals! Flashing keys are not only easier on graphics designers, but also easier to notice, a flashing tile catches your attention more then a dwarf covering his stomach when he's hungry. We're working with <20 pixels here.

Toady designed this game to be in ASCII format (or whatever else Mugros would call it), Toady would need to preform a hostile takeover on every graphics company in the world to have it portray some of the stuff DF currently uses without making it seem black-nightish. And still not even Santa could portray all those high-rez people slashing and hacking in 100 FPS.

Heck, I enjoy ASCII graphics warts and all. Am I the only one that enjoys biting someone in the nose from behind without them seeing me?

[Zesty]

I just find it easier to visually identify something vaguely-dogshaped as a dog, than to equate a 'd' to a dog.

Oh, something vaguely dog shaped?

Is that shape a dog... or a fox? A cat is vaguely dog-shaped.

Maybe a wingless dragon?

Tilesets are all good and dandy. I don't think that Bohandas was smashing those. Instead I believe he was targeting the group of people who think that DF should have graphics rivaling Oblivion.

Whoa... those guys are in the wrong game.

[Vattic]

I play using the default ASCII but started with Mayday's graphic set. I find that the ASCII allows more room for my imagination but I would like to see more graphics support.

There is a problem with ASCII as I see it. Namely that the same letters represent too many things. Extending the variety of characters might help here.

One alternative solution would be comparable to how dwarves are represented currently. Goblins, humans, and elves could have their own equivalent to the bearded smiley dwarves already have. I'd happily see simple abstract sprites for each creature which are still colour coded. This could even apply to other things like furniture and workshops.

[Neonivek]

Personally while I know Dwarf Fortress is always going to be ASCII

I want Toady to eventually get around to full graphics support and possibly UI support.

I like ASCII but I find the ability to tell what I am looking at... by looking at it. To be a very useful ability.

If it wasn't for the fact that I find a hard time looking for graphics packs that have all the graphics included and are up to date... I'd still be using them.

Instead I believe he was targeting the group of people who think that DF should have graphics rivaling Oblivion

Naw that would just be silly. Bohandas is actually just outright stating that ASCII is supperior to the tilesets because it allows you to interpret what is there.

This is similar to the arguements that books are supperior to movies because it allows you to imagine what is there.

MIND you... Where is the suggestion?

What part of this topic is a suggestion? Toady already stated to never have an official graphics pack, nor will he ever do any graphics himself.

[IT 000]

I have seen plenty of people suggest that DF should have a tileset instead of using the ASCII graphics. This seems like a very well written rebuttal.

[Immortal]

personally i can barely understand classic df screenshots but i vote to keep the ascii because it is what makes dwarf fortress so unique... besides all the world generation and epic stuff we enjoy about it... when you tell someone you're playing dwarf fortress you have to mention its an ascii based game and without that it just wouldn't be as dwarfy.

I can't understand these new graphic sets.. I used to use the Map Depot all the time, but since these tiles have caught on, and there are so many different ones I just don't anymore..
Just wanted to share my two cents.
I also enjoy using my imagination, pretty much the main reason for playing this game for me.