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[Whales]

Breaking my hiatus to push a mini-update.  No construction yet, or any of the mod merges I wanted to do; that stuff will have to wait!
This update requires a clean build.  It should be compatible with old saves, but no promises.

Features:

• Moved all debug functions to the Z key, including overmap teleportation.
• Guns now have individualized reload times.  Note that this means that there's more room for well-differentiated gun types, so several will soon be merged from Aninimouse's mod!
• Revolvers now reload one bullet at a time.
• Reload times reduced at a flat rate of 7.5% per skill point in the gun's type, to a maximum of 75%.
• Reloading no longer trains gun skills.
• Rebalancing of the stats of several guns.
• MP3 player nerfed to +50 peak morale (from +100).
• Window frame movement cost reduced to 400 (from 600).  Underbrush reduced to 300 (from 350).
• Book cases are smashable.

Bug Fixes:

• Fixed crash when hitting a too-high number in a computer dialogue.
• Weather saves properly.
• Light range doesn't fade to 0 at 6:00 AM
• Loud noises reduce spawn counter properly in early game
• Lit molotovs never go out earlier than 5 turns after being lit.  When they go out, they revert to an un-lit molotov (rather than disappearing).
• Crowbars work properly on alarmed doors (e.g. at banks or police stations).
• Shovel message "You can't dig through _____!" no longer spits numbers in place of terrain name.

[BishopX]

As far is inventory, maybe it's time to implement a more complicated system. One that tracks how your storing stuff, what in, etc. For example, when you find a hammer, you could hang it through a loop on your pants, or you could put it in a pocket, or you could put it in your bag, or you could hold it in your hand, etc. Each of these would have different effects, for example if you put it in your bag it will be very secure and if you have to fight you can just drop the bag, but if you want to use it you have to dig it out.

This is something that's been mentioned before, and I'm not into it.  It seems like just a lot of micromanagement and un-fun busywork for the player, and like pandamage says, in Cataclysm you tend to carry a lot of items.  I'd rather just abstract inventory as a total amount of space, without requiring the player to shuffle items around constantly.

I like the KISS ideal behind the abstract inventory system, and I agree that in general micromanagement is a bad idea. But I think a little more depth in the inventory system would be a good idea. There are several reasons for this. The first is that this is a game which is in a large part about stuff. Crafting and scavenging are two of the five main activities in the game right now (the others being zombie killing, exploring and "base defense"), both of which are item intensive, as is maintaining morale, and managing pain. Because Cataclysm lacks levels, or other ways of increasing your characters powers without items, items become very important. I think a little more depth in the inventory management part of the game would be in keeping with the idea that surviving is in large part about stuff.

The second reason an improved inventory system is needed is because the current abstract system results in YASDs. If I'm at my volume limit and a fast zombie slices apart my trenchcoat, I am very probably dead due to the encumbrance penalties. Fighting and running both take longer, which results in more hits, more pain and still more loss of speed. There are two ways I can deal with this quantum encumbrance. I can fight on despite the penalty, or I can stand around like a bozo dropping items (hopefully I'm carrying lots of big stuff rather than say 30 cans of food!) while getting munched on. This is obliviously unrealistic. If my trench coat gets torn off of me in real life, I am no longer carrying the stuff in the pockets. I'm less encumbered and probably faster as a result. The second reason the current system leads to YASDs is that there is no way to jettison excess weight quickly. Because pain cuts carrying capacity you can find yourself overburdened as a result of damage...which drastically decreases you're combat or escape options. In real life you can drop a backpack you need to run for your life. In Cataclysm dropping a backpacks results in quantum encumbrance penalties. The only way to shed weight is to stand there dropping items as the zombie horde shambles closer, cutting into the time you should really be running.

A solution to quantum encumbrance (where losing vulume capacity doesn't actually change the amount you are carrying) would be a nice first step. Even if it's just randomly dropping stuff until the carried volume is less than the volume capacity.

A more elegant solution would be to associate volume with containers (clothes, bags,furniture and ground tiles) and simply give the player an auto fill toggle to jam stuff into any carried container. This would mesh well with the proposed crafting update which looks are useful things within a few tiles, because it could simply check any container accessible through the i, g or e commands.

[iceball3]

• Reloading no longer trains gun skills.

Aw, I'm gonna miss that. Oh well.

[areyoua]

I feel like Whales just waits for me to start a new game to push out updates. Hopefully, it'll be save compatible even on Head's version.

[Whales]

I like the KISS ideal behind the abstract inventory system, and I agree that in general micromanagement is a bad idea. But I think a little more depth in the inventory system would be a good idea. There are several reasons for this. The first is that this is a game which is in a large part about stuff. Crafting and scavenging are two of the five main activities in the game right now (the others being zombie killing, exploring and "base defense"), both of which are item intensive, as is maintaining morale, and managing pain. Because Cataclysm lacks levels, or other ways of increasing your characters powers without items, items become very important. I think a little more depth in the inventory management part of the game would be in keeping with the idea that surviving is in large part about stuff.

The second reason an improved inventory system is needed is because the current abstract system results in YASDs. If I'm at my volume limit and a fast zombie slices apart my trenchcoat, I am very probably dead due to the encumbrance penalties. Fighting and running both take longer, which results in more hits, more pain and still more loss of speed. There are two ways I can deal with this quantum encumbrance. I can fight on despite the penalty, or I can stand around like a bozo dropping items (hopefully I'm carrying lots of big stuff rather than say 30 cans of food!) while getting munched on. This is obliviously unrealistic. If my trench coat gets torn off of me in real life, I am no longer carrying the stuff in the pockets. I'm less encumbered and probably faster as a result. The second reason the current system leads to YASDs is that there is no way to jettison excess weight quickly. Because pain cuts carrying capacity you can find yourself overburdened as a result of damage...which drastically decreases you're combat or escape options. In real life you can drop a backpack you need to run for your life. In Cataclysm dropping a backpacks results in quantum encumbrance penalties. The only way to shed weight is to stand there dropping items as the zombie horde shambles closer, cutting into the time you should really be running.

A solution to quantum encumbrance (where losing vulume capacity doesn't actually change the amount you are carrying) would be a nice first step. Even if it's just randomly dropping stuff until the carried volume is less than the volume capacity.

A more elegant solution would be to associate volume with containers (clothes, bags,furniture and ground tiles) and simply give the player an auto fill toggle to jam stuff into any carried container. This would mesh well with the proposed crafting update which looks are useful things within a few tiles, because it could simply check any container accessible through the i, g or e commands.

Actually, dropping items takes absolutely no time whatsoever, so presently, if you experience a sudden drop in inventory space, you can take the time to drop stuff at your leisure without being attacked while you do so.  This will change in the future; obviously, when it does, automatically losing items due to having your storage space drop will have to become a feature.

It's been discussed extensively how that would take place; picking random items does feel a little unfair, while pausing the game to let the player pick and choose what to lose is a little cumbersome, and is also unfair, but this time in the player's favor.  I think, at this time, I will go with the former for when volume is lost unexpectedly (e.g. due to having clothing destroyed), and the latter for when it's lost expectedly (e.g. due to dropping clothing).

I see your point about the importance of items in this game, and how it'd be nice if they were associated with a particular storage recepticle.  If things were auto-filled it wouldn't be much of an issue, and I think that a UI for shuffling items--chosing which vital items are kept in your pockets and which are in your backpack--could be done pretty gracefully.  I just don't want boring and lengthy item shuffling to be a part of optimal gameplay.  I'll be keeping your thoughts (and the many promising thoughts of others) in mind as I tackle these issues.

• Reloading no longer trains gun skills.

Aw, I'm gonna miss that. Oh well.

It encouraged grinding--the boring but rewarding process of finding a back room and hitting "UrUrUrUrUr" over and over until you hit level 1.  It also rewarded players for the awareness of a particular game mechanic--something I want to avoid doing in general (note that this is different from awareness of game content--e.g. particular monsters or items--and from in-depth comprehension of game mechanics--e.g. smart ways to use fire).  It's not a huge change to the game, anyway; reloading couldn't take you past skill level 1.

[Micro102]

I don't see why it shouldn't increase your gun skill, it certainly would make you reload faster.

[Whales]

I don't see why it shouldn't increase your gun skill, it certainly would make you reload faster.

Yet another place where good gameplay beats realism--which is the case at least 90% of the time!

[gimlet]

reloading couldn't take you past skill level 1.

To replace that, how about making the target range functional to give skill up to level 1 or 2?  Yeah it'd still be kind of a grind, BUT it would use up a resource and actually be the sort of grind a person would really take when getting unfamiliar guns...

[GlyphGryph]

I still think my system of creating optional item clusters will be good. And I'm totally going to work on now, just because I'd love to see it happen. I think I'll wait until after you push the construction update, though, just because I'm worried about conflicts. (Assuming it's coming in the next week - if there's a good chance of it taking longer than that, let me know)

[BishopX]

Actually, dropping items takes absolutely no time whatsoever, so presently, if you experience a sudden drop in inventory space, you can take the time to drop stuff at your leisure without being attacked while you do so.  This will change in the future; obviously, when it does, automatically losing items due to having your storage space drop will have to become a feature.

It's been discussed extensively how that would take place; picking random items does feel a little unfair, while pausing the game to let the player pick and choose what to lose is a little cumbersome, and is also unfair, but this time in the player's favor.  I think, at this time, I will go with the former for when volume is lost unexpectedly (e.g. due to having clothing destroyed), and the latter for when it's lost expectedly (e.g. due to dropping clothing).

I see your point about the importance of items in this game, and how it'd be nice if they were associated with a particular storage recepticle.  If things were auto-filled it wouldn't be much of an issue, and I think that a UI for shuffling items--chosing which vital items are kept in your pockets and which are in your backpack--could be done pretty gracefully.  I just don't want boring and lengthy item shuffling to be a part of optimal gameplay.  I'll be keeping your thoughts (and the many promising thoughts of others) in mind as I tackle these issues.

It's good to know that dropping stuff takes no time. It would be handy to have it documented somewhere

I agree with Gimlet that a funtional target range would be a nice addition. Especially since it's noisy.

[GlyphGryph]

I've actually been thinking about how sound is handled too - it might be better to do something similar to the smell system, where walls and stuff can act as (partial, not complete) sound barriers to sound, and the strength of the sound at spawn range is what determines the result. So shooting things in basements (or in a soundproofed indoor shooting range) would be much safer.

[Whales]

I still think my system of creating optional item clusters will be good. And I'm totally going to work on now, just because I'd love to see it happen. I think I'll wait until after you push the construction update, though, just because I'm worried about conflicts. (Assuming it's coming in the next week - if there's a good chance of it taking longer than that, let me know)

There's a very very good chance of it taking longer than that; I'm still dealing with real life stuff for at least another week, and I wasn't as close as I thought.  Still, conflicts should be minimal, I won't be touching inventory stuff much in the near future.

A functional target range isn't a bad idea; it's grindy, but it passes two important tests: 1) it uses up resources in the form of ammo, and 2) it creates danger in the form of noise.  These seperate it from the no-risk, no-cost grinds that I truly wish to avoid at all costs.
It's worth noting that simply shooting a gun at a wall will train the skill, so there's kind of functional ranges already, but having a range that would improve your skill faster and allow for streamlined practice ('e' the range counter, "Practice shooting your ____? (Y/N)") would be nice.

I've actually been thinking about how sound is handled too - it might be better to do something similar to the smell system, where walls and stuff can act as (partial, not complete) sound barriers to sound, and the strength of the sound at spawn range is what determines the result. So shooting things in basements (or in a soundproofed indoor shooting range) would be much safer.

Not a bad idea!  I'll start tinkering with algorithms.

[BishopX]

A functional target range isn't a bad idea; it's grindy, but it passes two important tests: 1) it uses up resources in the form of ammo, and 2) it creates danger in the form of noise.  These seperate it from the no-risk, no-cost grinds that I truly wish to avoid at all costs.
It's worth noting that simply shooting a gun at a wall will train the skill, so there's kind of functional ranges already, but having a range that would improve your skill faster and allow for streamlined practice ('e' the range counter, "Practice shooting your ____? (Y/N)") would be nice.

Could you move it to an apply command for the gun in in your inventory? I like being able to use 'e' to pick stuff up in adjacent tiles, and having passable tiles with a seperate function would get annoying fast (since toilets and computers are impassible and can't accumulate items on that tile they work fine).  Something like a>$gun>"select a target for practice" would be better. That way you can use use non-shooting range targets for slower skill gain. The iconic example would be shooting tin cans off a fence. Shooting ranges would give a bonus to the learning and (if sound baffling gets implemented) be less risky.

I would imagine that target shooting would take longer per shot and simply keep iterating the shooting algorithm until you're interrupted, gain skill or use up your magazine.

[Angle]

Minor bug report, every half hour I get the debug message "health: ########". Unless your health is supposed to be a 7 digit number, I suspect buffer overflow.

Also-Clothes get ripped up way too easily. I mean, what is this, a bad porno?

[Ivefan]

Also-Clothes get ripped up way too easily. I mean, what is this, a bad porno?

Partially agree, Though it kinda depends on what kind of damage you receive. A t-shirt wouldn't take any damage from bashing for example.
And that reminds me. Is the damage system going to get more complex than just HP? Broken bones, Puncture wounds, Open wounds, Infections etc?