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[Zangi]

I'm sure Romney will do better then Obama.

[Nadaka]

I'm sure Romney will do better then Obama.

On issues of liberty they are probably similar. But Obama has the advantage on economic policy. Our dwindling liberties won't matter as much if we barely have the resources to survive much less express those liberties when Romney gets his chance to gut the middle class and the social security and welfare services for fun and profit.

[Kilroy the Grand]

his chance to gut the middle class and the social security and welfare services for fun and profit.

I think you are a few years to late.

[Shinotsa]

Anyone else wishing that Clinton had won out over Obama in '08 during the primaries? I wouldn't mind starting to pay off our debt to China. Plus, the first female president would have been a huge stride for the country. I still find it amazing that half of our population didn't swamp the voting booths during the primaries for her.

[Nadaka]

I don't know if Hilary Clinton would have been much better. Sure she had more exposure from being first lady, but she had a similar amount of legislative experience. And she has a stronger gun control voting record than Obama, so the people bashing Obama for his "radical hippie commie comin' to take our guns" agenda would have even more to bitch about. And she was involved in several "think of the children" initiatives related to censoring video games IIRC.

[palsch]

Anyone else wishing that Clinton had won out over Obama in '08 during the primaries? I wouldn't mind starting to pay off our debt to China. Plus, the first female president would have been a huge stride for the country. I still find it amazing that half of our population didn't swamp the voting booths during the primaries for her.

No.

I'm fairly certain that Obama has been a better president than Clinton would have been. He was far superior in pretty much every policy area back in the primaries, even before Clinton's campaign went into meltdown mode, and he was a far stronger candidate for the general election.

In the areas that seem to matter around here, Clinton was a worse choice. She was very much an establishment politician who was deeply invested in business as usual. She is far more conservative than Obama in many areas, with the possible exception of gay rights. A history of being more hawkish on war issues, more flawed when it came to civil liberties, more or less a British Tory when it comes to economic issues. Obama shifted right a bit. Clinton was already there.

I'd love to see a viable female candidate, and it may be that Clinton gets a chance in 2016. But she isn't someone I could get massively excited about on her own merits. Obama, in 2008, was. And he has done enough to retain my support.

[Shinotsa]

Well I was more referring to what Bill did when he was in with the whole deficit thing and how she'd more than likely show more of the same. Sadly the whole gun control thing doesn't matter all that much, seeing as how the majority (Not all. Please don't kill me gun people of B12. I like you all I swear) of people who get up in arms over their guns wouldn't vote for a woman anyhow.

And the Democratic party needs someone with a backbone. Obama's a likable guy. But he's already compromised on too many things, while the Republicans didn't have to when Bush was in office. Honestly though, I just miss Bill and wish he were back.

[Osmosis Jones]

Everyone misses Bill. He was one chilled out motherf***er, and could play a pretty mean sax. Bloody impeachments.

[Zangi]

I'd like to put into consideration... again... that a good portion of the Republicans sitting somewhere important, are big fans of the lame duck mantra... "No second term for Obama" from practically the beginning.

[Sirus]

Forget Bill, we need Franklin Delano Roosevelt to rise from the grave for another term. He'd probably whip this economy into shape, or at least be willing to try.

[Shinotsa]

I still have the vague suspicion that there's ONE big reason why no one likes Hilary, and it's not her policies. It becomes more apparent with people who are too stupid to defend their views. I remember asking around in 08 and hearing "Well, she's just a bitch!" and "Ugh, why would I vote for HER?" from people who knew nothing about politics and had only heard of the primaries from passing glances at the news or because Obama was running. While I have no doubt that his race alienated a great deal of people, I also have no doubt that it earned him a great deal of support and interested young people in being a part of history. However, while we may be a partially racist society, we have been almost entirely patriarchal since the founding of the country. Well, her time came and passed so I suppose crying about it isn't going to change anything.

FDR would be shot for being socialist

[Sirus]

FDR would be shot for being socialist

That wouldn't be a problem, as he'd be undead

[Shinotsa]

FDR would be shot for being socialist

That wouldn't be a problem, as he'd be undead

Awesome! Once again the U.S.A. would be the leading cause of "brain drain" in developing countries.

[Sirus]

FDR would be shot for being socialist

That wouldn't be a problem, as he'd be undead

Awesome! Once again the U.S.A. would be the leading cause of "brain drain" in developing countries.

Screw dem developing countries! It's their fault that they're poor!
</typical Tea Partier>

In all seriousness, there's plenty of brain power here in the States. It's just sadly underutilized.

[palsch]

I still have the vague suspicion that there's ONE big reason why no one likes Hilary, and it's not her policies. It becomes more apparent with people who are too stupid to defend their views. I remember asking around in 08 and hearing "Well, she's just a bitch!" and "Ugh, why would I vote for HER?" from people who knew nothing about politics and had only heard of the primaries from passing glances at the news or because Obama was running. While I have no doubt that his race alienated a great deal of people, I also have no doubt that it earned him a great deal of support and interested young people in being a part of history. However, while we may be a partially racist society, we have been almost entirely patriarchal since the founding of the country. Well, her time came and passed so I suppose crying about it isn't going to change anything.

I'm not a Hillary fan, but I actually agree with most of this.

I wanted to dive back into the 2008 primaries and find some of my discussions about her on another forum. There was fairly little rational discussion of Hillary outside a few core members. Even opposing her I spent more time defending her from assholes.

Her biggest problem was (and probably still is, but less so since her time in State) that she was a counter-culture figure who was, in realistic terms, a moderate conservative policy wise, similar to Bill. Combine that with what lots of people have described as a ruthless and ambitious personality (that mostly comes from people I've spoken to and articles out of Arkansas, before her time in the White House and Senate) and you have a figure who is hard to get people behind.

This article is a nice piece on how the early Clinton vs Giuliani match-up was pretty much a proxy Vietnam era fight. Obama belonged to the newer generation (he was a late boomer, but born to a mid-boom mother who is closer to Clinton in age than he is).

Actually, that article does a good job of explaining why I threw my lot in with Obama over Clinton early.