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Author Topic: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___  (Read 301205 times)

Diarrhea Ferret

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #285 on: June 08, 2012, 02:44:56 pm »

Hi all.
I haven't been on these forums in a long time, but when I started writing recently I realised I needed some unbiased feedback.
This was always such a friendly forum, so I came here to check if there were any writing threads and so that's how I found this.
I pretty much have my whole novel planned out in my head, but I really need some advice on how to improve my literary prose, specifically on pacing my choice of words. So I thought I would post the prologue to my novel first, check for feedback, then I can post the first chapter later.
Please don't hold back at all, I want as much criticism as possible. I'm pretty much determined to write this novel no matter what, so I might as well try and make it as good as possible.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Ok that's it. Be harsh please. So far I have had only positive feedback from family and friends, which isn't much use for improvement tbh.
Thank you in advance!!!!!!!  :)
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Ehndras

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #286 on: June 08, 2012, 04:01:21 pm »

Huh.

Have any of you ever tried to reverse-engineer a poem into a story, or vice-versa? Looking at this old poem, I think I could write a proper short story with it. Opinions?

...And yeah, its written in Haiku. DON'T JUDGE ME. :P

Spoiler: Fates Intertwined (click to show/hide)

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Ehndras

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #287 on: June 08, 2012, 04:04:01 pm »

@Ferret

Commas, commas everywhere.
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Diarrhea Ferret

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #288 on: June 08, 2012, 04:19:27 pm »

I am confused by this feedback. Have I used too many commas or not enough? Are there any specific places where my use of commas was wrong?

And this may seem a stupid question, but did you write that poem? It is excellent. Atleast in my opinion. I'm sure a story could be written from it.
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fqllve

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #289 on: June 08, 2012, 06:46:55 pm »

I'm not sure it's so much that any of the commas were unnecessary, I didn't see any that were, but more that you have a penchant for embedding clauses in embedded clauses.

And this period of time, that to a mathematician was a constant; five minutes, thirty-two seconds; was melded and stretched until it grew into an era.
This sentence in particular was confusing, which I assume is why you used the semicolons, although they didn't really make it much easier to parse. You could combine the second and third clauses into 'that to a mathematician was a constant five minutes, thirty-two seconds. . .' It's not pretty, but at least it's clear.

Add to that the fact that you phrase details in such a way as to make them confusing, 'he knew he was thirteen years of age,' and I get the feeling you were trying to be deliberately obscure. But really, rather than having an air of mystery the whole thing is a bit frustrating because there's never really any reward for having figured it all out and there's not much to compel a person to keep reading, even though it's a difficult read.
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schrocko88

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #290 on: June 08, 2012, 06:50:58 pm »

Just a little something I wrote when bored in Spanish class my freshman year of high school. I'm now a sophmore, and still working on this story. Constructively critic me!
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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Ehndras

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #291 on: June 09, 2012, 12:03:05 am »


And this may seem a stupid question, but did you write that poem? It is excellent. At least in my opinion. I'm sure a story could be written from it.

Yeah, I wrote it about my ex-fiance back in November of 2009, when I was in high school.
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Diarrhea Ferret

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #292 on: June 09, 2012, 08:09:07 am »

You had a fiance when you were in high school...isn't that a little soon...? High school is american for secondary school right? e.g maximum age of 18? (sorry, GB over here)

And thank you for the feedback. I actually wasn't trying to be deliberately obscure :/ I guess I should make some things a little less confusing. I think I just wanted to make my writing a bit more interesting and varied, but if it's frustrating then that is a bad thing.

Thank you :)
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Ehndras

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #293 on: June 09, 2012, 09:57:48 am »

You had a fiance when you were in high school...isn't that a little soon...? High school is american for secondary school right? e.g maximum age of 18? (sorry, GB over here)

And thank you for the feedback. I actually wasn't trying to be deliberately obscure :/ I guess I should make some things a little less confusing. I think I just wanted to make my writing a bit more interesting and varied, but if it's frustrating then that is a bad thing.

Thank you :)

She became my fiance after high school, obviously. :P We were together for 4-5 years.
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Diarrhea Ferret

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #294 on: June 09, 2012, 10:18:33 am »

Lol ok that makes more sense. It was too early in the morning for me when I wrote that reply...
Anyway, I am going to make a revised "prologue" which I will attempt to improve and upload it at some point.
Things to do:
Less commas
Less confusing sentences

Anything else?
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Diarrhea Ferret

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #295 on: June 09, 2012, 03:40:49 pm »

Ok, well here's chapter 1 of the same story. I've tried to take into account the criticisms people have already posted. So can you please tell me if it is any better, just as bad or even worse.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I know that is quite a lot of writing so for anyone who reads the whole thing I really really really appreciate it.
But I totally understand if someone just reads a bit of it spots something glaringly obvious that I've done wrong and posts.

Thank you!!!  :)
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Supermikhail

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #296 on: June 10, 2012, 02:21:54 am »

Just a little something I wrote when bored in Spanish class my freshman year of high school. I'm now a sophmore, and still working on this story. Constructively critic me!

words

Well, I guess I'll give it a stab.

The more I read it, the more irritated I became (granted, I only went as far as the first stars; I've glanced forward, and I don't really feel mollified). You had better add a fatal flaw to your protagonist if you choose to start in such a happy situation.

I can't say it enough: engage, engage, engage, engage your motherfucking readers. A fantasy setting alone doesn't cut it. I don't know why I should care for it, unless my girlfriend was molested in a bar or I'm a blacksmith. In the end you could give it an alluring title, like "Beware! Here be dragons! And half-naked princesses! And lots of cruel murder!" Or you could start with a sneak-peak, like "Little did he know that today his village would be wiped off the face of the Earth, the Moon would turn pink, and sheep would start talking," or an enticing summary.

In a sense the clinch came from the phrase "It's a mere nothing." It's obvious you're trying to make it sound fantasy-like, which obviously translates into "Let's make them talk like they wrote in the middle-ages", or like Tolkien tried not to sound, because Tolkien was obviously involved in a big elf cover-up. Sorry, it's the era of realism, and I happen to enjoy it very much, among many people. So, if you could wipe off some butter, I'd appreciate it. And, of course, reading aloud is always helpful.
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schrocko88

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #297 on: June 10, 2012, 01:02:32 pm »

Just a little something I wrote when bored in Spanish class my freshman year of high school. I'm now a sophmore, and still working on this story. Constructively critic me!

words

Well, I guess I'll give it a stab.

The more I read it, the more irritated I became (granted, I only went as far as the first stars; I've glanced forward, and I don't really feel mollified). You had better add a fatal flaw to your protagonist if you choose to start in such a happy situation.

I can't say it enough: engage, engage, engage, engage your motherfucking readers. A fantasy setting alone doesn't cut it. I don't know why I should care for it, unless my girlfriend was molested in a bar or I'm a blacksmith. In the end you could give it an alluring title, like "Beware! Here be dragons! And half-naked princesses! And lots of cruel murder!" Or you could start with a sneak-peak, like "Little did he know that today his village would be wiped off the face of the Earth, the Moon would turn pink, and sheep would start talking," or an enticing summary.

In a sense the clinch came from the phrase "It's a mere nothing." It's obvious you're trying to make it sound fantasy-like, which obviously translates into "Let's make them talk like they wrote in the middle-ages", or like Tolkien tried not to sound, because Tolkien was obviously involved in a big elf cover-up. Sorry, it's the era of realism, and I happen to enjoy it very much, among many people. So, if you could wipe off some butter, I'd appreciate it. And, of course, reading aloud is always helpful.

So would you suggest a prologue maybe?
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fqllve

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #298 on: June 10, 2012, 01:23:26 pm »

So would you suggest a prologue maybe?
Noooo, prologues are the anti-hook. Save the prologues for dense novels.

Honestly, I felt like you rushed through everything far too quickly for me to form an attachment to the characters or the situation. We have to care about Kimil before we're going worry about her safety. My principle is that the reader should have questions. Not in the sense that they should be confused by what I'm writing but rather that they should anticipate what is going to happen later. So the reader should be asking not "What was the author trying to say here?" but instead "How is this going to resolve? Why is this the way it is? Why would someone behave this way?" and you, as the author, should be prepared to answer those questions because it was you who deliberately planted them in the reader's mind.

If I was going to begin the story I would start with maybe three or four paragraphs describing Kimil in such a way as to make her sympathetic to a reader. Perhaps you could also introduce Connor in that section. Maybe some friendly and amusing banter between the two would be enough to bring suspense to the situation. There are, of course, any number of other ways you could do it, that's just an example.

It might also be that your scenes are so short I'm having trouble actually absorbing what happens. As an abstraction I get it, but actual imagination and visualization doesn't really get of the ground. Everything moves by so quickly that even though I made it about halfway through I don't really remember much about the specifics. It's all very rushed. You should take a little bit of time to dwell in your world, give your readers a moment to breathe and to absorb the information that's being conveyed to them.


So I figured I ought to submit something to this. Please, supply me with only your harshest criticism. :)
Spoiler: The Bull Sermons (click to show/hide)
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Supermikhail

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #299 on: June 10, 2012, 02:12:27 pm »

So would you suggest a prologue maybe?

No, I wouldn't. Second, (first being my particular misanthropy nowadays) I believe I know why things are bust, don't mean that I can fix 'em; at least I think if I could I would have written something better myself already. It's like this: if your car got stuck I could get inside, look at the fuel meter and see that it's at zero, but I wouldn't necessarily be able to tell you how to fix it (starting with the fact that you aren't at a gas station right now).

Third, do you think I would look at your story and care for it the way that you do? Assuming the answer is no, what do you think would be the quality of my suggestion? I wouldn't take my suggestion if I were you, so I'll just spare you the trouble of coming up with the reasons why you don't like it.

Fourth, we're still not settled that your story is worth my time to come up with a prologue. You're not offering me any incentive to put in effort there for your sake (of course, you can dispute that it's for your sake only, and then I'll argue that it is). There's this widespread sentiment that giving critique is a worthwhile activity, helpful in the pursuit of writing vocation; when in reality those are usually completely separate - people either succeed at writing or at criticizing, and when they're brilliant at either they pretty much can't say anything coherent about the other side - they either deconstruct or construct. They get to the other side when they're not very successful in their previous choice.

Although, as far as I can see I'm pretty bad at both.

Well, what can you offer me?

-----

P.S. You can shout at me in reply if you like. I just think this style makes communication more fun. ::)

-----

It's currently my firm belief that one of the most important things in writing is having something to offer to the reader. I couldn't care less about vampire romance, but some people would be very intrigued; but if you overhype a story I might give it a look just to see what the deal is about; if you overhype it as a teenage angst type I'll turn away, based on the hype; if you give me a page of banalities I'm already gone, although some people would stay because these banalities touch their lives; but if these banalities concern a foreign country, especially one I'm about to go to, or am fascinated with, I'm all yours. There's a lot of drama I don't care for, but you'll grab me if it's about the nature or freedom. If it's from a religious standpoint I'll pass, though. Generic fantasy doesn't do anything for me, and I'm neither a blacksmith, nor do I go to bars. fqlive, I don't pick up anything useful from a skimming of your story, either. Someone dies in the end, but it's this way with half the stories posted here these days, it seems. Maybe you're catering to a crowd whose motivation is to observe as many different ways to die as they can... Wait, you are!
« Last Edit: June 10, 2012, 02:29:36 pm by Supermikhail »
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