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Author Topic: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___  (Read 300614 times)

fqllve

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #300 on: June 10, 2012, 02:29:05 pm »

It isn't about the death. It's strange you'd mention it actually, because I consider the death to be the most minor part of the story. How much did you actually read? because, and I'm sorry to sound like a jerk and say this, it seems like you kinda just dismissed it out of hand. If you want me to supply you with the hook, the story is about desire and esoteric knowledge. And I certainly hope I've offered something to the reader, particularly, some laconic yet substantial dialogue, a glimpse into a constructed world, and a reflection on the pursuit of information and information itself.

e: I certainly wasn't catering to anybody! His death is a result of his single-minded pursuit, his pride and his egotism. It was the logical consequence of his actions. I felt like it was the natural ending to the story.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2012, 02:32:59 pm by fqllve »
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Phantom of The Library

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #301 on: June 10, 2012, 11:46:18 pm »

Hugo, my apologies, I had a long review typed out for your story, but then my browser got closed and I lost it all. -argleblagrjgnaoiashpaoehtroias- but everything I had has pretty much already been said by Ehndras and Mikhail. 



fqllve, I'll get to your story in the morning.  And DF if you want more criticism.



ChrissyJane, I find your story rather unimaginative, you should try harder to sound like a real person and focus less on flowers.
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Supermikhail

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #302 on: June 11, 2012, 01:40:42 am »

It isn't about the death. It's strange you'd mention it actually, because I consider the death to be the most minor part of the story. How much did you actually read? because, and I'm sorry to sound like a jerk and say this, it seems like you kinda just dismissed it out of hand. If you want me to supply you with the hook, the story is about desire and esoteric knowledge. And I certainly hope I've offered something to the reader, particularly, some laconic yet substantial dialogue, a glimpse into a constructed world, and a reflection on the pursuit of information and information itself.

e: I certainly wasn't catering to anybody! His death is a result of his single-minded pursuit, his pride and his egotism. It was the logical consequence of his actions. I felt like it was the natural ending to the story.

I'd rather you sounded like a jerk, actually. Yeah, I dismissed it out of hand, pretty much. I don't care for prose which I have to read selectively. There was a discussion about this kind of prose, maybe here, maybe in B12 writers guild, and maybe I didn't get your intentions, but I started drifting away and wondering what it was all about in the middle of the first paragraph, so I went ahead and skimmed the whole story, and the only thing that caught my eye was the final death scene, so I assumed that's what the story was about. And I have to ask you how long you worked on this story, cause everyone can come up with a glimpse into a constructed world, and a reflection on the pursuit of information and information itself, of this length. In an evening. I hope it's not about school essays here these days.

----

All in good, albeit highly subjective, spirit. ::)
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WillowLuman

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #303 on: June 11, 2012, 01:54:06 am »

-woops didn't mean to post=
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Ehndras

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #304 on: June 11, 2012, 09:26:41 am »

The heavy criticism is what we come here for. ;) You can't get to a professional level without churning out a large amount of terrible trash, mediocre pittances, and so-so stories... Like any activity, practice makes perfect!
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AlStar

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #305 on: June 11, 2012, 10:56:06 am »

Just a little something I wrote when bored in Spanish class my freshman year of high school. I'm now a sophmore, and still working on this story. Constructively critic me!

Since the others seem to be going on more about the general feel of the story, I thought I'd go a bit into the nitty-gritty details, since there's work there that needs to be done, and I like to think I'm fairly decent at it.

Starting from the top...
Quote
"Good," said his master, the town blacksmith, Erolon,
I'd put that as "Good," said Erolon, the town blacksmith and Connor's master;
flows better, IMO.

Quote
Connor was the smith's apprentice. And, he had always wanted to be. When he was young his mother would often find him in Erolon's forge, listing to the smith's stories, gazing at Erolon like a father. Connor didn't know his father. He liked to think his dad was a great hero, off ridding the land of evil. Or a wizard, battling demons trying to break into this plane.
Choppy. Connor was an apprentice smith and had always wanted to be. When he was young, his mother would often find him in the forge, listening to the smith's stories, gazing at him like the father Connor had never had. Connor didn't know his father. He liked to think that his father was a great hero, off ridding the land of evil; or a wizard, battling demons trying to break into this plane.

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He struck again, shaping the metal into a U-shape.
Don't repeat words in close succession if you can help it. Just say that He struck the metal again, bending it into a U-shape.

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He was making a horseshoe, for one of the farmers. He struck, and struck, plunging it into cold water to cool when the need was there. Working quickly, he soon finished.
I don't think most of this is really needed, you can skip right to the end.

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Erolon held it up to investigate.
Inspect, more likely.

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When he did Connor noticed a scar on his forearm. Conner had never seen it before, because Erolon wore leather on his arms, to prevent getting burnt.

Dude's been around the smith since childhood and he's never seen the smith without his leathers? Either this is a new scar, or you're going to have to give a good reason why Connor's never seen the dude's arms before - and, more importantly - why he's suddenly seeing them now. A finished horseshoe is probably not enough reason.

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Erolon looked at where Conner was pointing and, eyes dark, covered it quickly.
Needless detail.

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This is a fine horseshoe. As a reward, the rest of the day is yours to do what you will,... But not in here;. Now, out you go out with you."
Minor suggestions for flow.

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"No, no buts. Get on now. I hear Kimil was asking about you."
No corrections, but why is Conor the only one in this village with a normal name?

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"She's in town?" Connor asked.
Unneeded.

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Connor dashed out the reed door, and turning right, ran down to the tavern. The Bloated Traveler is was a moderately well kept inn. And ,the hub of all activity in the town of Capem. If Kimil was in town; he would find her there.
Would a smithy have a reed door? Most are open to the air, to vent fumes and keep the temperature down. I'm honestly not sure, (not a historian) but it rings false to me. I don't think that you need the fact that he goes right, unless you think we'll need a map in our head of how this village is mapped out. I'd say he just ran to the tavern.

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As he approached the door, he heard a drunk yelling,
   "Hey, preddy liddle girl, come here and sit on my lap." These words came along with a chorus of laughter. "It's was probably Bumis, he's always starting trouble." Connor thought. Only this time it was different. ; This time it And, unknowing to Connor, was going to change the whole village.
I, personally, don't like the "write out how people sound," school of writing, but that's a personal choice.

One more line:
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  "Get your filthy hand off me," A girl Connor heard Kimil scream "you're a. . . pig!"
Dude should know what Kimil sounds like, or, if he's in the tavern (it's a bit unclear), he should certainly know that she's not just 'some girl'.

I'll stop there for now. If you (or others) are finding this at all useful, I can keep going, but it takes enough effort that I don't want to go through this if it's not being appreciated.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 10:59:41 am by AlStar »
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Diarrhea Ferret

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #306 on: June 11, 2012, 11:56:46 am »

I'll stop there for now. If you (or others) are finding this at all useful, I can keep going, but it takes enough effort that I don't want to go through this if it's not being appreciated.

I would very much appreciate it if you could do the same thing for this. Nobody got back to me on it and I would love some feedback. It is quite long, so if you only want do some of it that is still absolutely great.

To anyone helping out us inspiring writers it is hugely appreciated!!!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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fqllve

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #307 on: June 11, 2012, 12:18:39 pm »

I'd rather you sounded like a jerk, actually. Yeah, I dismissed it out of hand, pretty much. I don't care for prose which I have to read selectively. There was a discussion about this kind of prose, maybe here, maybe in B12 writers guild, and maybe I didn't get your intentions, but I started drifting away and wondering what it was all about in the middle of the first paragraph, so I went ahead and skimmed the whole story, and the only thing that caught my eye was the final death scene, so I assumed that's what the story was about. And I have to ask you how long you worked on this story, cause everyone can come up with a glimpse into a constructed world, and a reflection on the pursuit of information and information itself, of this length. In an evening. I hope it's not about school essays here these days.
How do you mean selectively? Do you mean prose where most of the sentences are immaterial to the story? I understand the first paragraph is kind of dense, that is a problem of mine, but the hook is actually its last sentence. I could probably trim a bit from it. Anyway, pretty much everything after the first paragraph is as tightly written as you'd expect an 800 word story to be. I suppose I couldn't resist indulging myself a bit even in such a brief format.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
How does the paragraph read now? I'd be hard pressed to cut any more.

Haha! It's no school work. I probably spent about an hour writing it and at least another two hours editing it before it reached this draft, and since then I've probably read it through four of five more times, some of which were aloud. Of course, that was back in December, so it could have been longer. It definitely wasn't any less than that though. I take writing very seriously. The only reason I can post this in its entirety is because I don't care about retaining the rights to flash fiction. :)
« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 12:22:17 pm by fqllve »
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Supermikhail

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #308 on: June 11, 2012, 12:48:47 pm »

How do you mean selectively?
I mean choosing the order of reading through a story. For example, a first paragraph doesn't make sense, so you go to the second one, read some and then go back to the first paragraph.
Haha! It's no school work. I probably spent about an hour writing it and at least another two hours editing it before it reached this draft, and since then I've probably read it through four of five more times, some of which were aloud. Of course, that was back in December, so it could have been longer. It definitely wasn't any less than that though. I take writing very seriously. The only reason I can post this in its entirety is because I don't care about retaining the rights to flash fiction. :)
Now, I don't understand it. Or maybe pretend that I don't because I'm not writing anything right now and can't compare to my own quality. In any case, even disregarding the fact that the intro doesn't whet my appetite, it's hard for me to get past the fancy words. You're sort of in a league with the user schrocko88, it seems, and I can't understand how you can get your writing past reading aloud. But I've got a hypothesis to explain it.

Did you go to Sunday school? I've got a strong suspicion that this style is inspired by a certain book. Especially the dialogue.

Or maybe you remind me of my own writing, and I can't bear it. And maybe I hate my own writing, that's why I don't like yours. That's another hypothesis.

Tell you what, could you cut out all the "mere"s, "in truth"s, "proud" displays... Uh. What's the purpose of this paragraph?! Whose point of view does it present?!

I gotta go get me a drink...
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Supermikhail

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #309 on: June 11, 2012, 01:19:41 pm »

The prison was small and dimly lit. The bars on the four cells were slightly rusted, but still sturdy. A simple wooden chair with three well-worn cushions was currently occupied by Antaeus, the prison guard. Although you cannot tell while he is residing there, the indent in the bottom pillow taken up by Antaeus’ sizeable behind maintains in this position even while he has departed, due to the extended periods of time he spends there.
Fuck off! I almost choked on my drink (of tea, of course) when I read that. I don't make a good teacher, but children in a good teacher's class don't come in mid-term without bothering even to look at the textbooks. Or in this situation the students are supposed to tutor each other and the teacher comes by to check on the discipline at the end of the week. I wouldn't be so bothered if it were a separate thread that -- in case it's especially annoying -- would fall into oblivion soon. Well, let's just sit and wait for Willfor or another guy with similarly large red bags of helpful links. Cause I ain't touching this stinky!
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fqllve

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #310 on: June 11, 2012, 01:22:41 pm »

I mean choosing the order of reading through a story. For example, a first paragraph doesn't make sense, so you go to the second one, read some and then go back to the first paragraph.
Oh no, if you have to read it like that there's something very wrong. What exactly doesn't make sense about it?

Quote
Now, I don't understand it. Or maybe pretend that I don't because I'm not writing anything right now and can't compare to my own quality. In any case, even disregarding the fact that the intro doesn't whet my appetite, it's hard for me to get past the fancy words. You're sort of in a league with the user schrocko88, it seems, and I can't understand how you can get your writing past reading aloud. But I've got a hypothesis to explain it.

Did you go to Sunday school? I've got a strong suspicion that this style is inspired by a certain book. Especially the dialogue.

Or maybe you remind me of my own writing, and I can't bear it. And maybe I hate my own writing, that's why I don't like yours. That's another hypothesis.

Tell you what, could you cut out all the "mere"s, "in truth"s, "proud" displays... Uh. What's the purpose of this paragraph?! Whose point of view does it present?!
Nah, actually I was raised atheist. But if you're thinking the Bible, McCarthy (particularly Blood Meridian) is one of my three biggest stylistic influences so maybe I'm getting biblical style second hand. Honestly though, this is much more plainspoken than I usually write, simply because the limited space doesn't allow for waffling.

Actually the dialogue is probably based more on script dialogue than anything biblical and is kind of full of anachronisms. "Codex" wasn't in use during the 13th century (which the setting is based on) and premiums are a modern notion.

The paragraph is scene setting, it provides context and a backdrop for the action. And it's from Casmus's point of view, as the whole story is. Which is what the sentence adverbs are there for. The story is in third-person limited so everything is supposed to reflect back on Casmus.

Or in this situation the students are supposed to tutor each other and the teacher comes by to check on the discipline at the end of the week.
While you may have been a bit harsh about it, yeah I didn't get past that part either. Maintaining appropriate tense is kind of the bare minimum of readability
« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 01:26:10 pm by fqllve »
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AlStar

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #311 on: June 11, 2012, 01:59:44 pm »

I'll stop there for now. If you (or others) are finding this at all useful, I can keep going, but it takes enough effort that I don't want to go through this if it's not being appreciated.

I would very much appreciate it if you could do the same thing for this. Nobody got back to me on it and I would love some feedback. It is quite long, so if you only want do some of it that is still absolutely great.

To anyone helping out us inspiring writers it is hugely appreciated!!!

So, I read through it - first off, before I get to anything deeper, you need to decide your point of view. We start off with a narrator, then we go into Antaeus's head, and stay there for about the first 3/4ths of the story, but after that we get little snatches of other character's thoughts wandering in. Either Antaeus is slightly telepathic, you need to better partition places where we switch to new points of view, or you need to remove the offending language.

For the purposes of these suggestions, I'm going to assume you ment to be inside Antaeus's head the entire time.

Quote
The prison was small and dimly lit, the bars on the four cells were slightly rusted, but still sturdy. Outside the cells, a simple wooden chair with three well-worn cushions stood. was currently occupied by Sitting in the chair was Antaeus, the prison guard. Although you cannot tell while he is residing there, the indent in the bottom pillow taken up by Antaeus’ sizeable behind maintains in this position even while he has departed, due to the extended periods of time he spends there.
While I like the bit in the end, if we're going to be seeing this from Antaeus' view, we can't have it.

Quote
Antaeus was annoyed. In the small village of Brickets, there are never criminals. It is a successful fishing community, a prosperous one. At a reasonable thirty-four years of age, having been a prison guard since he was a seventeen, Antaeus found that he had mainly been paid for sleeping.Of course in the first few weeks he hadn’t been quite so apathetic. Dedicated, consistent, alert, hard working to earn his pay: the opposite of his current attitude. After all, what is the point in being all of those things when ninety-nine of one-hundred nights there is no-one to guard.
This entire bit needs to have its order changed to read better (again, if we want to keep in his head.)

Antaeus was annoyed; he'd been a prison guard since he was seventeen. When he'd first started, he'd been dedicated, consistent, alert and worked hard to earn his pay. Now, at thirty-four, he was none of those things and was content to earn his pay while asleep. After all, what was the point of being vigilant when ninety-nine of one-hundred nights there was no-one to guard? Brickets was a small, prosperous fishing villiage; there were never criminals here.

As a side note, small fishing villages likely wouldn't have a prison. If they did, it probably wouldn't have more then one cell, and it almost certainly wouldn't bother to have a guard. Why would they bother to pay for someone to sit on his ass 99/100 days? Small villages aren't normally known for their bureaucratic bloat.

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Theose rare nights when there wais someone - an urchin stealing food, or perhaps a woman accused of adultery – what point wais there in guarding them? The keys, secure on his belt, were all that was needed to keep them here.

Quote
When he had first started as an apprentice prison guard he had quickly been taught by his retiring predecessor everything you needed to know; sleeping in the comfy chair. Antaeus felt proud of his greatest achievement in this job: adding the two extra pillows to the sides of the chair, as Antaeus’ fatty form was wide enough to press against either hard edge, making sleep difficult. Antaeus actually considered at one point simply dragging a bed down here, but thought this might be pushing it.
Funny, but it doesn't gibe with what you told us about 17-year-old Antaeus, unless his disillusionment was very, very fast.

I'd suggest something like this:
When he had first started as an apprentice prison guard, the first thing he had been taught by his retiring predecessor was how to sleep in the wooden chair that was his post. "It's everything you'll ever need to know," the old man had said. Antaeus hadn't believed it then, but had soon grown to accept the truth in his old master's words. Now, Antaeus felt pride in what he considered his greatest achievement: adding the two extra pillows to the sides of the chair, as Antaeus’ fatty form was wide enough to press against either hard edge, which had made sleep difficult.  He had briefly considered switching out the chair for a bed, but decided that appearances must be maintined.

Quote
But tonight was different,and Antaeus did not think he would be sleeping today; three of the four cells were occupied. In the first cell was the child - Could he even call him that? - Antaeus didn't know; the Chief had described the unbelievable scene to him, such that Antaeus could not believe. The villagers were calling the orphan boy called Ken a demon, a monster. Nobody had liked him before, the adults did not care for him and the children had made sport of him. Antaeus’ own boy had been one of those who regularly tormented Ken. /p
At the time,Antaeus hadn't had a no problem with it; just boys being boys, he thought. Besides, Ken was always strange looking: hugely underdeveloped for his age (a body more like a six year old than a thirteen year old), and of course those with huge unforgettable green eyes and thin, fluffy tufts of hair that hardly coveringed his head. Something about him Ken provoked a negative reaction in all of the villagers it seemed, including the children. /p
But now Antaeus shuddered. Thank the Gods his son had been ill this whole week, or perhaps he would have been with the others when it had happened, and Antaeus might have been one of the parents burying their dead this evening.
Need to hit the enter key in here a couple of times.

Need to get back to work. If you're interested, I'll continue this later.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 02:02:22 pm by AlStar »
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Supermikhail

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #312 on: June 11, 2012, 02:47:47 pm »

Quote
And it's from Casmus's point of view, as the whole story is.
Then your protagonist is a pretty boring fellow, plus he's confused about his intentions. It appears as if he's trying to advertise the stall to someone. Oh, I guess I should answer somewhat in order.
Quote
What exactly doesn't make sense about it?
It doesn't have a hook, and what I said before.
Quote
Honestly though, this is much more plainspoken than I usually write, simply because the limited space doesn't allow for waffling.
It's not about "plainspoken" or "waffling". Waffle as many as you want, just add some jelly in there. Give me some flavor so I don't think it's just flour and water. Maybe then I'll even ignore the fact that your waffle is in the shape of a dick.

Okay, now to go back to that paragraph. Have I mentioned that it doesn't make sense:
Quote
The antiquarian was a wealthy woman to maintain such a stall (what is this phrase? Does "to" mean that the only purpose of the woman is to maintain a stall?), thrice the size of any other merchant's in the square. And in truth it was no mere stall, but an exotic merchant-tent of Imayyo, thousands of miles from its home and serving as a proud display (of what?) in the northern taiga of Neymsall.
Also, I admit I spent some time trying to rewrite the paragraph and it didn't work a bit (which could be my fault). May I suggest you omit the first paragraph and start with dialogue? It often works for short stories. The trick is to weave description into the dialogue. Or you could put the descriptive paragraph after a short introductory exchange, provided the latter contains a hook.

Hey, has it ever occurred to you that your characters are grubby stereotypes? E: I even know what they're called: the arrogant noble and the arrogant mafia boss.

Also, suddenly "Hey just a moment--" in perfect New York accent.

Also also, look -- I'm going through the rest of the story and despairing. Now, I would be the last person to want to hear that my story is completely broken, but there's kind of no getting around it.

Finally, what is this sentence?
Quote
His face pinched in rage and the cords of his neck tensed, lifting his shoulders.
E: I get it now; it still doesn't help the fact that we're suddenly talking about the actions of the cords of a neck. Or maybe the fact that his shoulders lifted is more important than the fact that his cords tensed.

My dear sir, I'm beginning to suspect that this is a prank.

P.S. It's occurred to me that you might be interested in a list of things that are wrong with your story:
  • Bad, uninteresting plot, including the lack of a hook.
  • Poor, simplistic descriptions with generic adjectives of the "good", "bad", "ugly" kind.
  • Unrealistic dialogue; do you think 13th century people talked like that?
  • Lack of logic
The solution to pretty much all of this issues would be, I think, reading a lot -- what plots people are interested in, what words authors manage to use for descriptions, how they bring the dialogue of a different era to life, and how logic of language works, I guess.

And I've spent far too long on this reply. >:(
« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 02:54:35 pm by Supermikhail »
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WillowLuman

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #313 on: June 11, 2012, 03:04:17 pm »

Here's a hook:

  The Elephant fell off the roof, crushing the car below. James watched as the now horribly injured assassins climbed out of the car, dripping mauve blood, and thought, Why does this kind of thing always happen when I try to get my dry cleaning?

Unexpected things are great for grabbing attention. A good way to hook the reader is to give them something that seems very bizarre, and then gradually give the context to explain it in the intro.
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Supermikhail

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Re: ___/The Writer's Apprenticeship\___
« Reply #314 on: June 11, 2012, 03:43:34 pm »

+1. I wish you followed your advice. :P
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