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[Kot]

hat sudden transformation wont be so "sudden", is the point I am trying to drive home.

That mind would already have been "vaccinated."

That's not really a thing though. There is no such thing as vaccination, only defeating the Chaos through power of own belief. The psykers beliefs and entire existence until that point would be created upon a lie, something that could be exploited and exact opposite of what they should have.

As for chaos space marines picking them up--- Put a proximity mine in the damn thing.  You WANT these things to explode spectacularly at the slightest bit of tampering, before they can awaken.  Once awakened, they can alter physical reality around themselves as they see fit, because they are psykers. Those bombs wont mean a thing to them.

Well, I think you're vastly overestimating common psykers powers, but if that were the case my question would be why the "heresy kill-switch" should be of any real relevance to the psyker, if they can apparently freely change reality around them.

[Digital Hellhound]

These virtual training environments seem like corruption magnets. Daemons will be there right away promising them bodies right now, telling them that what they've been told is all lies, all that temptation stuff. And they will get there because a human mind is a connection to the Warp, even alone, psykers a hundred times so. That's if they don't corrupt the machinery behind these virtual worlds or the people maintaining them, and I don't think you could have these systems working for years without tech-priest maintenance.

The safest Imperial psykers are sanctioned in a Soul Binding ritual anyway. I don't think you could 'vaccinate' psykers to any level of certainty without it. Frankly, I think this kind of operation would actually be more feasible in the Imperial Palace, where they have the means to protect and sanction them.

Also, I don't think you could have proximity mines or other devices that couldn't be bypassed by agents of Chaos. Technology is vulnerable once again.

[wierd]

NON CHAOS SPACE.


Say it with me.  NON CHAOS SPACE.


EG, places without already summoned demons flitting about.  The fabric of reality is too thick there for them to just pop in and say "hello!"


Re vaccination:

True belief-- Yes.  You would teach them that they can manifest their own wills within the immaterium, and in the true world.  The simulations would teach them to do that, before they actually gain the powers to do so.  this is the "vaccination".  Their own belief in their own wills, would give them the vaccine.

Kot, you keep returning and beating a dead horse with the "But its a simulation!" routine.  How do you know that the christians AREN'T RIGHT?  You really dont, do you?  You only have the signals your body gives your mind from the world around you to go by, and you conclude, through lack of supporting sensation, that no such outside reality exists.


The fact that it is a simulation is meaningless. It's as faithful a simulation of real reality as can be given, but the kids are already indoctrinated that it is fake, VERY VERY VERY early in the process. Like nursery school level.

Instead, they are given lessons, using the fact that it is indeed a simulation, that as closely mimic the experience of being submersed into the immaterium provides, as possible-- with guided instruction, and positive feedback.  They are trained to transform that experience, and rewarded for doing so.

When the change comes, they know exactly what to do-- Reshape the immaterium to protect themselves.

[Digital Hellhound]

NON CHAOS SPACE.


Say it with me.  NON CHAOS SPACE.


EG, places without already summoned demons flitting about.  The fabric of reality is too thick there for them to just pop in and say "hello!"

Again, I don't think any space is really safe from Chaos without active anti-Warp defenses like Cadian pylons. The Chaos Gods would be happy to expend their power to manifest their power in this space, given the prize. Given that it will take a considerable effort by the Imperium to get these brain-pods in there including a lot of people, it seems easy for them to find out. You could have the whole thing run by blanks and Grey Knights or such, though, I guess that might help conceal it. The moment they're shot out into space, that benefit's gone.

Even if they couldn't manifest anything in the Materium there, those psyker brains are connected to the Immaterium. Daemons don't need to be there physically to affect you. They don't need to 'pop in' when they can come to you in dreams and thoughts. I think the technology would be safe in this case though, sure. I still don't believe you could have tech of this complexity functioning for years without tech-priest maintenance though. The tech-priests would probably insist on being there, too, however irrational that might seem to you.

I do like the idea of shooting these pods out into extragalactic space. The Warp's still there, I'm pretty sure, but the Chaos gods might not have influence there...? As are all those Orks and various Tyranids looking for a tasty psychic snack... okay, I see the problem. Maybe those psyker brains would be approached by Gork and Mork instead, which seems like the best thing ever.

[wierd]

and, the "Dream compulsions" angle is covered--- The computer, which is not alive, and does not have a soul really, is not connected to the immaterium. It monitors the brain's activities, and if it detects patterns that indicate the brain has been compromised, it initiates the auto destruct.


It would be a war of attrition.  The imperium just needs to make them faster than the chaos gods can influence them into self destruction.  If enough survive, the balance starts tipping, and the chaos gods weaken.

(Amusingly, the inevitable truth of most of them being duds, with no way even for the imperium to know which ones are and which ones arent, means that even if the chaos space marines are out scooping them up en mass, most of the time it just means the chaos space marines are wasting their time.

It also forces them to go into known areas, where they can be shot at.

It would divide their forces intensely.

[Eschar]

Christianity teaches that the time you are alive, is not the real reality; The real reality is a spiritual reality with God presiding over everything.  As such, the sufferings of the body are meaningless. The wants, needs, urges of the flesh are to be abstained from, and focus given to the spiritual.

Nitpick: this is more part of Gnosticism than orthodox Christianity (at least in Protestantism; don't know about Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy.) Most forms of Christianity do believe that the real world and its sufferings are definitely important (see the numerous NT commands to care for the sick and poor, and the OT statement that God stated the natural world (before the fall) to be "very good.") Focus on the spiritual is a facet of Christianity, but it is not to crowd out all focus on the world ("faith without works is dead," etc.) Indeed, Gnosticism's claim that this world is completely unreal/imperfect were declared to be heretical.

At least, the Christians I've personally met hold this belief; for all I know you may have met some with more Gnostic views.

[wierd]

Christianity teaches that the time you are alive, is not the real reality; The real reality is a spiritual reality with God presiding over everything.  As such, the sufferings of the body are meaningless. The wants, needs, urges of the flesh are to be abstained from, and focus given to the spiritual.

Nitpick: this is more part of Gnosticism than orthodox Christianity (at least in Protestantism; don't know about Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy.) Most forms of Christianity do believe that the real world and its sufferings are definitely important (see the numerous NT commands to care for the sick and poor, and the OT statement that God stated the natural world (before the fall) to be "very good.") Focus on the spiritual is a facet of Christianity, but it is not to crowd out all focus on the world ("faith without works is dead," etc.) Indeed, Gnosticism's claim that this world is completely unreal/imperfect were declared to be heretical.

At least, the Christians I've personally met hold this belief; for all I know you may have met some with more Gnostic views.

Kinda sorta.  The teachings about treating each other well is more to prepare you to eschew self-enrichment at the expense of others, because that is not permitted in heaven.

There are many direct sermons from the christ concerning the less-than-important nature of the physical world.  Such statements as "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." and the like.  These are direct reflections on the physical world being temporary, and meant to pass; the real reality being the spiritual one, that endures eternal.  The more frequently cited one is " Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal. But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal"

The physical world is important, in that it teaches you the costs of sinfulness-- It causes pain and suffering, with the lie that it can satisfy.  Eschewing it, in favor of that which DOES satisfy, gives true happiness, and eternal life.  EG,

Happy are those who remain faithful under trials, because when they succeed in passing such a test, they will receive as their reward the life which God has promised to those who love him. If we are tempted by such trials, we must not say, “This temptation comes from God.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, and he himself tempts no one. But we are tempted when we are drawn away and trapped by our own evil desires. Then our evil desires conceive and give birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. (James 1:12-15)

The gnostic notion is that the creator of the material world is a faulted god (based on some very strange notions of why this is so) who has spread its faultedness into its creation, which it created on instinct alone.  This is not what I am mentioning when I say that christianity eschews the physical.  I mean more in the James citation above. The body has wants; those are trails. You have to overcome them to avoid sin. Doing so gives you a celestial reward in the true reality.

[Trekkin]

(Amusingly, the inevitable truth of most of them being duds, with no way even for the imperium to know which ones are and which ones arent, means that even if the chaos space marines are out scooping them up en mass, most of the time it just means the chaos space marines are wasting their time.

They could ask the nearest daemon to point out where the little dots in interstellar space are in return for a cut of the canned psykers. They're so isolated in NON CHAOS SPACE they're like a candle in a dark room, and since the Imperium can't (openly) do the same, they couldn't defend them with the same specificity that the traitors could come in and grab them.

[wierd]

Until they mature, they would not be any brighter than the other, dud, canisters.

Once they mature, its too late for chaos.

[Trekkin]

Until they mature, they would not be any brighter than the other, dud, canisters.

Once they mature, its too late for chaos.

Which is why they ask entities that explicitly don't follow linear time; you've made a very conveniently noiseless zone for them to augur around in.

Then, too, there are still things to offer an isolated brain in a jar that's stuck floating in might-as-well-be-Hell for all eternity, immortality being the most obvious one; even if you cram tons of juvenat drugs into the jars (and somehow sink that cost), entropy is going to win eventually.

Come to think of it, how are you powering them?

[wierd]

An RTG would work fine. Those have a lifespan of ~25 years.  The unit only has to be powered for ~13. It does not have thrusters, does not need station keeping, does not have a radio....


It just has to be warm, and reprocess nutrients. (the portion that houses the brain is the part the size of a propane tank. That's the part that must be kept small to keep polyp invasion an impossibility. Abuse rules as written hard.)


Once the whole "I dont have to obey reality anymore" thing happens, powering the pod is absurd.


And-- the whole "nontemporal nature" thing would apply to awakened and empowered minds like this; They awaken to the reality of the immaterium, and change it with their wills.  That would set the paths into a fixed position, in the same way the chaos gods mucked up the primarch project. Their awakening would be inevitable, if they awaken. That interference from the future could cloud the demons' vision. If they do it over large enough areas, the space marines are still out there trying to scoop up pods, with a 100% dud rate.


Consider--

If these beings do succeed, from the perspective of the chaos gods, those areas of space were "always" fuzzy.  They would not really know what the silly meat snacks were doing putting oeuvre derves out there like that.  If they investigated with space marines, 100% of the ones recovered would be normal brains inside. Confounding!

If they DONT succeed, then they would never succeed, as you cite.

However, you can never know, until you look.  that's how quantum collapse happens. Both states exist at the same time, but you wont know until the box is opened.

[LordBaal]

I can't remember but I think have read that binding a demon to a machine is both hard and permanent, which angries the demon a lot.

It's something that requires special rituals or extreme conditions.

[Eschar]

Christianity teaches that the time you are alive, is not the real reality; The real reality is a spiritual reality with God presiding over everything.  As such, the sufferings of the body are meaningless. The wants, needs, urges of the flesh are to be abstained from, and focus given to the spiritual.

Nitpick: this is more part of Gnosticism than orthodox Christianity (at least in Protestantism; don't know about Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy.) Most forms of Christianity do believe that the real world and its sufferings are definitely important (see the numerous NT commands to care for the sick and poor, and the OT statement that God stated the natural world (before the fall) to be "very good.") Focus on the spiritual is a facet of Christianity, but it is not to crowd out all focus on the world ("faith without works is dead," etc.) Indeed, Gnosticism's claim that this world is completely unreal/imperfect were declared to be heretical.

At least, the Christians I've personally met hold this belief; for all I know you may have met some with more Gnostic views.

Kinda sorta.  The teachings about treating each other well is more to prepare you to eschew self-enrichment at the expense of others, because that is not permitted in heaven.

There are many direct sermons from the christ concerning the less-than-important nature of the physical world.  Such statements as "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." and the like.  These are direct reflections on the physical world being temporary, and meant to pass; the real reality being the spiritual one, that endures eternal.  The more frequently cited one is " Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal. But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal"

The physical world is important, in that it teaches you the costs of sinfulness-- It causes pain and suffering, with the lie that it can satisfy.  Eschewing it, in favor of that which DOES satisfy, gives true happiness, and eternal life.  EG,

Happy are those who remain faithful under trials, because when they succeed in passing such a test, they will receive as their reward the life which God has promised to those who love him. If we are tempted by such trials, we must not say, “This temptation comes from God.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, and he himself tempts no one. But we are tempted when we are drawn away and trapped by our own evil desires. Then our evil desires conceive and give birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. (James 1:12-15)

The gnostic notion is that the creator of the material world is a faulted god (based on some very strange notions of why this is so) who has spread its faultedness into its creation, which it created on instinct alone.  This is not what I am mentioning when I say that christianity eschews the physical.  I mean more in the James citation above. The body has wants; those are trails. You have to overcome them to avoid sin. Doing so gives you a celestial reward in the true reality.

I don't want to hijack the thread with my nitpicking so I'll keep this short:
1. "The teachings about treating each other well is more to prepare you to eschew self-enrichment at the expense of others, because that is not permitted in heaven."
I don't think I've heard this view before. Could you give me some verses to support it? I've always seen/heard it as related to treating one's neighbor as oneself - not as direct preparation for heaven.

2. The disembodied Heaven isn't the final, perfect state of the universe in Christianity - which is why it's not the complete point. It's a temporary state believers' souls go to. Eventually, the earth - the physical universe! - will be remade, but without the fall's pervasive brokenness.

3. Nitpick: overcoming sin doesn't grant your celestial reward - salvation does. Salvation from the outside ("the free gift of God" - Epistle to the Romans), not works - that's why we had the Protestant Reformation.

Er, we should probably move this discussion to PMs or the Railgun Religion thread.

[LordPorkins]

HEY! TIME FOR NEW DISCUSSION TOPIC!

What y’all think is gonna be the next campaign boom

My moneys on armegeddon. We need a new chaos Primarch (Angron) a new Ghazzy model, and probably a new Yarrick model. Plus it’s classic campaign that would likely sell well

[LordBaal]

What happened with Failabadon?