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Author Topic: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!  (Read 888422 times)

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #19095 on: August 11, 2015, 08:01:12 pm »

I don't really buy the argument, at the time the global human population was far too low to have the kind of negative effects we see today. It was under 500 million, if I'm remembering my timeline right.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #19096 on: August 11, 2015, 08:04:20 pm »

Ghenghis pretty much singlehandely created an empire, he was for example pretty damn good at management and stuff. Also, all things considered, all of figures you mentioned fought, killed or even slaughtered their enemies. Even damn Hitler brought the Germany into a pretty good state before WWII and you could find a bunch of good things he did, even if they're outweighted by Holocaust and war, not to mention that's a tabu. And Bandera? Bandera caused a slaughter of Polish which country didin't even exist at the time, and were by no means enemies of Ukraine. Hell, you could think they would work together against Germans and Soviets, but no, that would be hard, slaughtering civilians you can blame for everything is easier.
What part of walking WWII did you miss m8 because you don't conquer soldiers, you conquer people, and when you do a genocide there aren't nearly enough soldiers to genocide for it to be classed a genocide (outside of maybe, China or the ol USSR I guess). Unless of course, the moral stipulation is that the deaths were not justified by conquest since no land was taken from the slain, rather it was people already living within the nation/empire that were getting slaughtered. But then you've also got national heroes that did just that, a gorillion from China and the Reconquest of Persia comes to mind. Actually, just pick any reconquest where some figure achieved national fame for succeeding in destroying already conquered peoples.

That is the point though, they are all people who were good at killing people
Adolf Hitler and Franklin Delano Roosevelt both arranged for millions of young men to be killed by artillery shells.  Do I need to explain to you why one man is condemned for that while the other is praised?
And dont even get me started on the absolute idiocy of people praising Gengis.
Hitler lost and Roose is loose won. Same goes with Churchill and his carpet bombing, the first instance of maximum freedom. To the victors. Plus you got to take into account that WWII is still in living memory, you can't idolize a figure as a hero if they're still relevant, it'd be like building a statue for someone who's not dead. Not to mention how what the folks in WWII did is still in living memory for some, with all the attached scars. Give it a few hundred years and there'll be Hitler fanboys in Krautland (ones that aren't nazis anyways) just as Churchill had his ills scrubbed or the Georgian with the bushy stache is having his blemishes scrubbed away in Russia today. Also I'm not really sure what you can criticize Genghis for when his praise is for the same thing he's vilified for. Mountains of skulls. An Empire that covers the world. Horses that trampled over entire cities replaced with bombs doing much the same.

I dont understand what someone who murdered people to loot their corpes, a character out of a myth and someone who used widescale murder as a means of averting genocide have in common besides killing people.
That is the point though, they are all people who were good at killing people
Not true! They were good at getting other people to kill people and thus achieving a greater score than any individual killer could ever hope to.
Teamwork, guys. TEAMWORK!
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Who knew Peter Dinklage had so much in common with Stalin

I don't really buy the argument, at the time the global human population was far too low to have the kind of negative effects we see today. It was under 500 million, if I'm remembering my timeline right.
Farming

Culise

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #19097 on: August 11, 2015, 08:12:05 pm »

I don't know what these implications about the Queen are, it's common knowledge by this point that Elizabeth II of Winsdor (or Lizzy The Rock to her friends) is a 5th Generation Ventrue.

What is Ventrue?
World of Darkness reference, an RPG game.  Ventrue are the socialite class, with stuff like mind-control and an obsession with power.  Fifth gen means she's pretty powerful, I think.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #19098 on: August 11, 2015, 08:14:34 pm »

I don't really buy the argument, at the time the global human population was far too low to have the kind of negative effects we see today. It was under 500 million, if I'm remembering my timeline right.
Farming
What of it? For much less food, and with an intensity that might as well be nonexistant. There's just not a lot of environmental potential to be gained on a more wild Earth.
I don't know what these implications about the Queen are, it's common knowledge by this point that Elizabeth II of Winsdor (or Lizzy The Rock to her friends) is a 5th Generation Ventrue.

What is Ventrue?
World of Darkness reference, an RPG game.  Ventrue are the socialite class, with stuff like mind-control and an obsession with power.  Fifth gen means she's pretty powerful, I think.
A demigod by human standards. 3rd generation were all basically gods, and vampirism itself was bestowed upon Cain by the capital-G Demiurge.

A fifth generation Ventrue would have a decent shot at forcing you to kill yourself by looking into your eyes, using a mind control power where that outcome is normally on a very short list of forbidden effects.
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Ispil

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #19099 on: August 11, 2015, 08:27:23 pm »

stuff
Ghenghis pretty much singlehandely created an empire, he was for example pretty damn good at management and stuff. Also, all things considered, all of figures you mentioned fought, killed or even slaughtered their enemies. Even damn Hitler brought the Germany into a pretty good state before WWII and you could find a bunch of good things he did, even if they're outweighted by Holocaust and war, not to mention that's a tabu. And Bandera? Basically all Bandera did was to cause a slaughter of Polishm which country didin't even exist at the time, and were by no means enemies of Ukraine. Hell, you could think they would work together against Germans and Soviets, but no, that would be hard, slaughtering civilians you can blame for everything is easier.
Eh, Timur just kind of pointed in a direction and said "you all die." I mean, his policy is that anyone who didn't surrender was an enemy; he'd kill entire cities just over their leader making a remark. Incidentally, the greatest damage done by the Mongol Empire was after Genghis's death. Furthermore, Timur almost exclusively led his own campaigns; Genghis left much of it to other generals. Most of the deaths came from years of famine and harsh rule. Timur just outright ordered the deaths of 17 million people.
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"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire

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Loud Whispers

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #19100 on: August 11, 2015, 08:45:05 pm »

the united kingdom was settled by malvinian aborigan tribes in 31488 bc and therefore londonian island malvinians should return themselves into the fold
Whilst snipping through Malvinas I found this gem:

Quote
The Gurkhas were truly feared by the Argentine troops. Writer Gabriel Barcia Marquez quoted witnesses as saying that the Gurkhas:

    …beheaded Argentine soldiers with their assassins' scimitars and were so bloodthirsty that the English had to handcuff them to stop further killing after the Argentines had surrendered.
Argentinian propaganda during the war backfired when Argie conscripts surrendered or fled immediately rather than face the Gurkhas. They started to believe Argie propaganda when British media just showed images of the Gurkhas sharpening their khukris.

For those who don't know, the Ghurkas are 4ft tall Nepalese soldiers who are indestructible and possessed of determination unmatched by anyone else alive. They don't eat people and are not possessed of any passions moreso than your average guy, and far from being uncontrollable war machines they are amongst the most disciplined fighting forces out there (but don't tell the Malvinians that). They have however on occasion been disciplined for beheading people on the modern battlefield. Generally nice people all around, and as soldiers you can rarely ask for better.

The outspoken senior figure of Surrey's police force has claimed illegal migrants could be stopped from entering the UK by having "Gurkha regiments at the Channel Tunnel".
Send in the armed forces, but the Gurkhas? Might be a tad bit overkill. They scare me, quite a bit. I suppose that's the point though, they'd be one hell of a deterrent.

*EDIT
Top lel, reading sjws complaining about Gurkha efficiency at killing commies amuses me deeply. One man's commie is another's maxist-leninist freedom fighter.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2015, 08:50:08 pm by Loud Whispers »
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #19101 on: August 11, 2015, 08:47:33 pm »

Look sometimes shit goes down and everybody gets really excited and all of a sudden ohp there goes the head aw shit there's blood everywhere dude

We've all been there at one time or another.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
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No Gods, No Masters.

Loud Whispers

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #19102 on: August 11, 2015, 08:53:17 pm »

Look sometimes shit goes down and everybody gets really excited and all of a sudden ohp there goes the head aw shit there's blood everywhere dude

We've all been there at one time or another.
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Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh

notquitethere

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #19103 on: August 11, 2015, 08:53:32 pm »

There's just not a lot of environmental potential to be gained on a more wild Earth.
This is about the most absurd thing I've read today and I read the Kot/UR spat. You do know that the environment isn't just the amount of C02 in the atmosphere, right? Millions of wolves, trees, lichen, mushrooms, insects, hedgehogs, snakes, pigeons etc. got to live and breed and flourish because of the destruction Ghengis wrought.

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #19104 on: August 11, 2015, 09:00:57 pm »

There's just not a lot of environmental potential to be gained on a more wild Earth.
This is about the most absurd thing I've read today and I read the Kot/UR spat. You do know that the environment isn't just the amount of C02 in the atmosphere, right? Millions of wolves, trees, lichen, mushrooms, insects, hedgehogs, snakes, pigeons etc. got to live and breed and flourish because of the destruction Ghengis wrought.
There's not anything really being lost by them not living though. The human impact was not significant enough to overcome replacement rate.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
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No Gods, No Masters.

mainiac

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #19105 on: August 11, 2015, 09:19:50 pm »

It was also a Germany which cared for Germans, instead of letting them starve off.

1932-1939 were years of rising food prices, stagnant incomes and the working class crowding into slums.  The Nazis did prestige propoganda projects but the reality was it sucked to be poor in Germany at the time.  Yes the number of unemployed feel by more then 1% a year but the working class got hit by a double whammy of Nazi policies inflating food prices and the collapse of foreign trade driving up prices across the board.  This culminated in peacetime rationing of food.

I can definitely sympathize with what you are thinking.  I'm an economist (on my good days) and I believed the popular accounts for quite recently until I got around to reading Adam Tooze's excellent Wages of Destruction.  But basically what happened was that a variety of measures lowered the living standard of the german poor and channeled those resources towards investments in heavy industry and purchases of weapons.  At the same time that this was happening the Nazis did a bunch of propoganda about some prestige projects that they subsidized in public housing, subsidizing the food they were taxing, etc.  Perhaps the best example is the volkswagen, which was supposed to be the "peoples car" but was in fact far too expensive for even the upper middle class to own.  For propoganda reasons the volkswagen was supposed to cost less then any car could be built for.  So what actually happened was people paid for the cars ahead of time at a subsidized price but then the cars never got built.  But these imaginary peoples cars were great propoganda.

Hitler lost and Roose is loose won.

Gee, what a wonderful understanding of normative philosophy you demonstrate.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2015, 09:34:16 pm by mainiac »
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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Culise

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #19106 on: August 11, 2015, 09:40:55 pm »

I don't really buy the argument, at the time the global human population was far too low to have the kind of negative effects we see today. It was under 500 million, if I'm remembering my timeline right.
Farming
What of it? For much less food, and with an intensity that might as well be nonexistant. There's just not a lot of environmental potential to be gained on a more wild Earth.
Do remember that the efficiency of agriculture in this era was vastly lower as well, requiring significantly more land for lower yields.  The deforestation of Europe, for example, began long before the charcoal demand of the early industrial era; an estimated 30-35% of Europe's total land area transitioned from forest wilds to agricultural fields just between the 6th and the 14th centuries AD[ref].  It doesn't seem entirely out of question for a similar argument for historical deforestation may be carried to the part of the world with the greatest population and the most intensive agricultural development based on the principles of state-led infrastructure development underpinning the entire concept of the hydraulic empire - China.  Islands that exceeded their carrying capacity in Polynesia were effectively deforested, though I agree that this may be considered a fringe case due to their isolated location without external frontiers for expansion. 

That said, it wasn't necessarily a positive effect.  The sequestration of so much CO2, even assuming their models were overstating the effects (I'll neglect Antarctic ice core samples that show actual atmospheric CO2 levels; I'm not very familiar with the methodology there, and they seem to be used more often on geologic timescales) would have lowered global temperatures.  It also may have been mitigated by other sources; just as the Little Ice Age did not correspond to a global decrease in atmospheric CO2, Genghis Khan's little adventures took place at the tail end of and just after the Medieval Warm Period.  That's obviously not to say that the two are related (if, for no other reason, than because the Medieval Warm Period's beginning and end are very fuzzily defined).  It's simply that, as you already know, there's more to global temperatures than just atmospheric greenhouse gasses. 

EDIT:
That said, it's worth noting that the study in question actually focused on four major depopulation incidents.  Only the two most long-lasting ones, the Mongol invasions in Asia and the European colonization of the Americas, showed any sort of long-term effect in the models.  The Black Death and the fall of the Ming Dynasty barely registered a blip; reforestation simply didn't overcome the emissions increase from decaying soil matter.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2015, 09:45:18 pm by Culise »
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scriver

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #19107 on: August 12, 2015, 02:07:44 am »

Two genocidal leaders who are being hail as historical/national heroes: Ataturk, Caesar.

Hell, apparently "young Turks" is a positive turnphrase in the us for "young go-getters". Which is pretty morbid.
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Sheb

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #19108 on: August 12, 2015, 02:18:46 am »

Yeah, MSH if you're interested in the subject I can recommend "Plows, Plagues and Petroleum", by William Ruddiman as a good book. Europe and other area of relatively high population were already deforested long before the industrial era. Rice paddies have been pumping methane in the atmosphere for thousands of years.

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Argentinian propaganda during the war backfired when Argie conscripts surrendered or fled immediately rather than face the Gurkhas. They started to believe Argie propaganda when British media just showed images of the Gurkhas sharpening their khukris.
Funny, in Mein Kampf, Hitler complains that German propaganda was defective for the opposite reasons: he says they pictured the Brits and French as tiny, weakling loosers, which meant the German arriving at the front line were demoralized when they got their shit kicked by "loosers". Meanwhile, he was admiring the British propaganda showing the Germans as barbarous Huns.
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Erkki

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #19109 on: August 12, 2015, 02:39:57 am »

Funny, in Mein Kampf, Hitler complains that German propaganda was defective for the opposite reasons: he says they pictured the Brits and French as tiny, weakling loosers, which meant the German arriving at the front line were demoralized when they got their shit kicked by "loosers". Meanwhile, he was admiring the British propaganda showing the Germans as barbarous Huns.

I'm currently reading again David Bakers book on Adolf Galland. Galland too was surprised of Hitler's thoughts on the British: Hitler saw the British in many ways as equals to the Germans. Apparently Hitler even considered the British form of society admirable and superior to the still "developing" 3rd Reich.
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