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[MrRoboto75]

What happened with Failabadon?

He failed.

[Telgin]

GW faqed deepstrike to be possible only  in your own deployment zone on turn 1, so  your brothers crysis suits could deepstrike to yours deployment zone only on turn 2.
Also what is the chapter you play as?

Interesting.  It's kind of... frustrating that the rules apparently change pretty frequently online.  The beta bolter rules, for example, and apparently changed point costs that invalidate a lot of the point (heh) of the codex.  Incidentally, where can I find this change?  I didn't see it in any of the FAQs on their website, but probably looked at the wrong thing.

Anyway, I play a homebrew chapter called the Doom Liches, but use the Iron Hands rules for them.  I've been told that the 6+ Feel No Pain isn't as good as it sounds on paper, and experience seems to kind of confirm that, but I do it for thematic reasons regardless.

[Kot]

NON CHAOS SPACE.


Say it with me.  NON CHAOS SPACE.

Non-chaos space with psykers. Sure.

Re vaccination:

True belief-- Yes.  You would teach them that they can manifest their own wills within the immaterium, and in the true world.  The simulations would teach them to do that, before they actually gain the powers to do so.  this is the "vaccination".  Their own belief in their own wills, would give them the vaccine.

What? You're telling them that they can do pretty flashy magics? Why would even knowing you can do magic serve as a "vaccination"?

Kot, you keep returning and beating a dead horse with the "But its a simulation!" routine.  How do you know that the christians AREN'T RIGHT?

I don't know if Christians are right, but I generally doubt it? What does it have to do with anything?

You really dont, do you?  You only have the signals your body gives your mind from the world around you to go by, and you conclude, through lack of supporting sensation, that no such outside reality exists.

Yes, which is why the simulation theories and such are considered possible. The problem of everything being subjective, to the point you cannot know if other people are even people, and so on, sure. Now the thing is, until I am proven otherwise I act like the world I am in is real. However, if I were proven that that world is in fact fake, and I am in reality some brain in a jar floating in space because someone turned me into one for his own benefit while probably living his own regular life, I'd be pretty miffed about it.

The fact that it is a simulation is meaningless. It's as faithful a simulation of real reality as can be given, but the kids are already indoctrinated that it is fake, VERY VERY VERY early in the process. Like nursery school level.

Instead, they are given lessons, using the fact that it is indeed a simulation, that as closely mimic the experience of being submersed into the immaterium provides, as possible-- with guided instruction, and positive feedback.  They are trained to transform that experience, and rewarded for doing so.

So you want to indoctrinate people and then, as you said, literally tell them everything they experienced, and by extension that indoctrination, is a lie. What? Do you think none of them would stop one day and think "wait so I got to be a brain in a jar without experiencing anything, but otherwise people just live on planets and have nice lives, despite me doing nothing wrong?", especially if they had some help in that thinking from Chaos?

When the change comes, they know exactly what to do-- Reshape the immaterium to protect themselves.

Or maybe be against Imperium for putting them in that state. Again, you vastly overestimate the capabilities of most (almost all) psykers.

and, the "Dream compulsions" angle is covered--- The computer, which is not alive, and does not have a soul really, is not connected to the immaterium. It monitors the brain's activities, and if it detects patterns that indicate the brain has been compromised, it initiates the auto destruct.

You can't really know it doesn't. That's the thing - you don't need a psyker to think about something for it to develop soul. You don't need to have people thinking about it specifically. If that brain in a jar has a simulated life, it's going to have emotions, and those emotions will be pretty much all directed at his simulated life, and by extension, the computer. The angle about Chaos Gods specifically expending a lot of power to get to them is also very valid - since they're supposed to endanger Chaos Gods (which they don't, again, you're using psykers - which are known for their capability of influencing Materium with Immaterium, rather than influencing Immaterium with Materium) the Chaos Gods would probably try to shut it down very hard.

It would be a war of attrition.  The imperium just needs to make them faster than the chaos gods can influence them into self destruction.  If enough survive, the balance starts tipping, and the chaos gods weaken.

You mean like the regular war? Except now you're apparently switching all Imperial resources to fighting one specific enemy of Imperium in a very weak plan that has barely no chance of victory, and even if it did achieve the victory, the Imperium is fucked anyway because Tyranids or Necrons or w/e.

(Amusingly, the inevitable truth of most of them being duds,

MASS MURDEEEER

with no way even for the imperium to know which ones are and which ones arent, means that even if the chaos space marines are out scooping them up en mass, most of the time it just means the chaos space marines are wasting their time.

They aren't particularly occupied by doing anything else, safe for attacking now less defended areas of Imperium where they could be torturing people, I guess.

It also forces them to go into known areas, where they can be shot at.

It would divide their forces intensely.

It would divide Imperial forces intensely, because now instead of fighting enemies of Imperium you're having Imperium watch over fucking floating cans, and if they are watched over, then, again, you have people in the area, and thus souls.

Once they mature, its too late for chaos.

Still don't get where you have this idea from.

Once the whole "I dont have to obey reality anymore" thing happens, powering the pod is absurd.

Again, you vastly overestimate the capabilities of most (almost all) psykers.

And-- the whole "nontemporal nature" thing would apply to awakened and empowered minds like this; They awaken to the reality of the immaterium, and change it with their wills.  That would set the paths into a fixed position, in the same way the chaos gods mucked up the primarch project. Their awakening would be inevitable, if they awaken. That interference from the future could cloud the demons' vision. If they do it over large enough areas, the space marines are still out there trying to scoop up pods, with a 100% dud rate.

Again, you vastly overestimate the capabilities of most (almost all) psykers.

If these beings do succeed, from the perspective of the chaos gods, those areas of space were "always" fuzzy.  They would not really know what the silly meat snacks were doing putting oeuvre derves out there like that.  If they investigated with space marines, 100% of the ones recovered would be normal brains inside. Confounding!

If they DONT succeed, then they would never succeed, as you cite.

And Imperium falls because lmao that was a good idea.

However, you can never know, until you look.  that's how quantum collapse happens. Both states exist at the same time, but you wont know until the box is opened.

"Like the moon has a definite position whether or not we look at the moon, the same must also hold for the atomic objects, as there is no sharp distinction possible between these and macroscopic objects. Observation cannot create an element of reality like a position, there must be something contained in the complete description of physical reality which corresponds to the possibility of observing a position, already before the observation has been actually made."
Do Chaos Gods play dice?

I can't remember but I think have read that binding a demon to a machine is both hard and permanent, which angries the demon a lot.

It's something that requires special rituals or extreme conditions.

It's hard, because the daemon doesn't want to be forced to possess something. It's permanent (in the sense it's until the object's "death, so to speak), because possessions usually are. If daemon wanted to possess an object for whatever reason, it'd be in the same ballpark as possession of a human, provided the object has a soul and has something to "inhabit", so to speak, with objects that are less complex and less accommodating of "sentience" being harder to possess. Imperial Knights and Titans are pretty easy example because you not only have a giant murder machine, you also have advanced computer systems, possibly AI and you also have the souls of it's pilots, which can be trapped inside well after their deaths, turning the actual "self" of a Daemonically possessed Imperial Knight to be an amalgamation between a Daemon(s), it's pilots, and the soul of the vehicle itself.

[ArchAIngel]

Imma just shut this all down now: We have an example of a FETUS Psyker(Alpha-Plus granted, but) mind controlling an entire planet to do their bidding.


This is fucking Warp Space Magic Hoodoo. Just because they ain't 13 ain't gonna mean they can't brainfuck a few thousand people.

[Taricus]

That, and enslavers exist. Trying mass produce psykers is only going to give them one hell of a buffet on demand, and emperor knows that NO-ONE wants more of those things.

[Kot]

Imma just shut this all down now: We have an example of a FETUS Psyker(Alpha-Plus granted, but) mind controlling an entire planet to do their bidding.


This is fucking Warp Space Magic Hoodoo. Just because they ain't 13 ain't gonna mean they can't brainfuck a few thousand people.

Sure. But about every generic psyker has his powers manifest after puberty (it's not really a strict thirteen years old but eh, close enough). More powerful psykers can have their powers manifest earlier on, but they're literal fucking daemon baits, since they don't have any defense against Chaotic influence at all.

That, and enslavers exist. Trying mass produce psykers is only going to give them one hell of a buffet on demand, and emperor knows that NO-ONE wants more of those things.

You know, with what me going on a lot about Enslavers and other similar Warp (technically not Chaos Gods aligned) predators in terms of how Old Ones fucked the Warp and why it was necessary for Emperor to become, well, himself, I should probably have thought about them sooner. Astral Hounds would be probably more common though.

[wierd]

And yet, I was mentioning them left and right , you know, "polyps".

They have rules about how much space they need to do the things they do.

1) They are approximately 3 meters in size.  They cannot physically fit inside the canister. Even *IF* they managed it, the resulting attempt to open the gate would rupture the canister, exposing the naked brain flesh inside to hard vacuum, instantly spacing it. It would die a terrible death before the process could complete, which takes about 50 hours. (ANd thats only if the monitoring system failed to notice that the subject's brainwaves were radically unusual, and failed to autoterminate anyway.)

2) Their compulsion distance is 50 meters.  The distance to the next pod is closer to 10,000 km, for a "Close" one.

3) enslavers do not actually fly; so they arent going to be mobile if they come out in deep space.  They are gonna be spaced if they do.

Spoiler: Because WALL OF TEXT (click to show/hide)

NON CHAOS SPACE.


Say it with me.  NON CHAOS SPACE.

Non-chaos space with psykers. Sure.

Is Terra in chaos space? How many psykers are there? Wasn't Big E there for how many millennia? Oh-- right, he's special because reasons... Right. /s

Re vaccination:

True belief-- Yes.  You would teach them that they can manifest their own wills within the immaterium, and in the true world.  The simulations would teach them to do that, before they actually gain the powers to do so.  this is the "vaccination".  Their own belief in their own wills, would give them the vaccine.

What? You're telling them that they can do pretty flashy magics? Why would even knowing you can do magic serve as a "vaccination"?

Perhaps you were not paying attention.  The simulation literally simulates being exposed to the immaterium, and its crazy, in a controlled manner.  The closes analog is a vaccination; Being subjected to bits of a virus, that has been rendered incapable of replication, to train the immune system to fight it on contact.  Same basic idea.  It's not just "magic school LOLS!", it's "Today you will experience mind fuck; I will stop the exercise when you fail. Then you will try again.  This will continue until you succeed, then I will expose you to MORE mindfuck."

Kot, you keep returning and beating a dead horse with the "But its a simulation!" routine.  How do you know that the christians AREN'T RIGHT?

I don't know if Christians are right, but I generally doubt it? What does it have to do with anything?

Way to miss the point I see.  Again, the christian doctrinal faith teaches that the world is temporary, and the source of sin; You are instructed to eschew what it demands from you, and instead focus on the spiritual.  This is as close to a drop-in as you can get.  But sure, be oblivious. /s

You really dont, do you?  You only have the signals your body gives your mind from the world around you to go by, and you conclude, through lack of supporting sensation, that no such outside reality exists.

Yes, which is why the simulation theories and such are considered possible. The problem of everything being subjective, to the point you cannot know if other people are even people, and so on, sure. Now the thing is, until I am proven otherwise I act like the world I am in is real. However, if I were proven that that world is in fact fake, and I am in reality some brain in a jar floating in space because someone turned me into one for his own benefit while probably living his own regular life, I'd be pretty miffed about it.

And you are not approaching it like a cult member.  Clearly, you have never studied cults, or how they influence human psyches.  Instead of doing so, you claim you are right, because your current subjective experience, which is based not on being a cult, but on being outside one, dictates that answer.  If you cannot be bothered to actually research this shit, I wont argue with you, because it's pointless.  Suffice it to say, you are wrong.

The fact that it is a simulation is meaningless. It's as faithful a simulation of real reality as can be given, but the kids are already indoctrinated that it is fake, VERY VERY VERY early in the process. Like nursery school level.

Instead, they are given lessons, using the fact that it is indeed a simulation, that as closely mimic the experience of being submersed into the immaterium provides, as possible-- with guided instruction, and positive feedback.  They are trained to transform that experience, and rewarded for doing so.

So you want to indoctrinate people and then, as you said, literally tell them everything they experienced, and by extension that indoctrination, is a lie. What? Do you think none of them would stop one day and think "wait so I got to be a brain in a jar without experiencing anything, but otherwise people just live on planets and have nice lives, despite me doing nothing wrong?", especially if they had some help in that thinking from Chaos?

Again, same problem as above.  You are approaching it from your own narrow perspective, without thinking outside it, from other perspectives. Please, never attempt to write fiction.

When the change comes, they know exactly what to do-- Reshape the immaterium to protect themselves.

Or maybe be against Imperium for putting them in that state. Again, you vastly overestimate the capabilities of most (almost all) psykers.

Perhaps, but even low level psykers cause changes in the materium, which is much harder to influence with warp than the immaterium. Even if they get capped, their momentary existence, and the thoughts they had, will still dump back into the immaterium, and do its ultimate task; Flooding it with ordered thoughts.  This argument is like saying raindrops cannot cause a flood, because they are individually tiny.  No single drop of rain creates the flood; it is a product of all of them at the same time.  You are literally mass producing these things.

and, the "Dream compulsions" angle is covered--- The computer, which is not alive, and does not have a soul really, is not connected to the immaterium. It monitors the brain's activities, and if it detects patterns that indicate the brain has been compromised, it initiates the auto destruct.

You can't really know it doesn't. That's the thing - you don't need a psyker to think about something for it to develop soul. You don't need to have people thinking about it specifically. If that brain in a jar has a simulated life, it's going to have emotions, and those emotions will be pretty much all directed at his simulated life, and by extension, the computer. The angle about Chaos Gods specifically expending a lot of power to get to them is also very valid - since they're supposed to endanger Chaos Gods (which they don't, again, you're using psykers - which are known for their capability of influencing Materium with Immaterium, rather than influencing Immaterium with Materium) the Chaos Gods would probably try to shut it down very hard.

That is exactly the point. You just are so caught up in "NOOOooooo! DO. NOT. WAAAAANNNT!" to grasp it.  Ordered thoughts are still thoughts.  The highly controlled environment of the simulation removes triggers that would promote chaos-fueling thoughts, and instead foster only highly order-fueling thoughts.  The fact that it *HAS THOUGHTS* is kinda the godamn point!!

It would be a war of attrition.  The imperium just needs to make them faster than the chaos gods can influence them into self destruction.  If enough survive, the balance starts tipping, and the chaos gods weaken.

You mean like the regular war? Except now you're apparently switching all Imperial resources to fighting one specific enemy of Imperium in a very weak plan that has barely no chance of victory, and even if it did achieve the victory, the Imperium is fucked anyway because Tyranids or Necrons or w/e.

Not all. Just a non-trivial portion.

(Amusingly, the inevitable truth of most of them being duds,

MASS MURDEEEER

Oh, and abducting psykers on hive worlds, and shoving them into the furnace keeping big E alive is somehow not mass murder?  Did you forget this setting or something? /s

with no way even for the imperium to know which ones are and which ones arent, means that even if the chaos space marines are out scooping them up en mass, most of the time it just means the chaos space marines are wasting their time.

They aren't particularly occupied by doing anything else, safe for attacking now less defended areas of Imperium where they could be torturing people, I guess.

They have to travel via the warp to get to these pods. I don't think you grasp how far apart the scattering is intended to be.  We are talking several AU as the normative figure.  They would have to make a warp entrance/exit for *EACH POD*.  Since time taken in the immaterium is... Not consistent.. in real space, it could take them mere hours, or hundreds of years, to move from pod to pod. Depends on the currents in the area.  There are only so many ships available, sending a whole squadron is nonsense-- So we are talking breaking up squadrons to do this.

It also forces them to go into known areas, where they can be shot at.

It would divide their forces intensely.

It would divide Imperial forces intensely, because now instead of fighting enemies of Imperium you're having Imperium watch over fucking floating cans, and if they are watched over, then, again, you have people in the area, and thus souls.

Mines are a thing.  Again, single ship. Not a squadron.

Once they mature, its too late for chaos.

Still don't get where you have this idea from.

A powerful mind, aligned with order, dumps its mental contents into the immaterium.  Another drop of rain falls, adding to the deluge.

Once the whole "I dont have to obey reality anymore" thing happens, powering the pod is absurd.

Again, you vastly overestimate the capabilities of most (almost all) psykers.

And even if they aren't strong enough, they still become a drop of mental energy going back into the immaterium in a flood. A drop of energy that is not aligned with chaos. It's still too late.

And-- the whole "nontemporal nature" thing would apply to awakened and empowered minds like this; They awaken to the reality of the immaterium, and change it with their wills.  That would set the paths into a fixed position, in the same way the chaos gods mucked up the primarch project. Their awakening would be inevitable, if they awaken. That interference from the future could cloud the demons' vision. If they do it over large enough areas, the space marines are still out there trying to scoop up pods, with a 100% dud rate.

Again, you vastly overestimate the capabilities of most (almost all) psykers.

Which is still a moot argument.

If these beings do succeed, from the perspective of the chaos gods, those areas of space were "always" fuzzy.  They would not really know what the silly meat snacks were doing putting oeuvre derves out there like that.  If they investigated with space marines, 100% of the ones recovered would be normal brains inside. Confounding!

If they DONT succeed, then they would never succeed, as you cite.

And Imperium falls because lmao that was a good idea.

However, you can never know, until you look.  that's how quantum collapse happens. Both states exist at the same time, but you wont know until the box is opened.

"Like the moon has a definite position whether or not we look at the moon, the same must also hold for the atomic objects, as there is no sharp distinction possible between these and macroscopic objects. Observation cannot create an element of reality like a position, there must be something contained in the complete description of physical reality which corresponds to the possibility of observing a position, already before the observation has been actually made."
Do Chaos Gods play dice?

Telling the future is literally collapsing a lightcone, with information about how a particle is behaving. It's observation. That you dont understand this is not a valid argument against it.

I can't remember but I think have read that binding a demon to a machine is both hard and permanent, which angries the demon a lot.

It's something that requires special rituals or extreme conditions.

It's hard, because the daemon doesn't want to be forced to possess something. It's permanent (in the sense it's until the object's "death, so to speak), because possessions usually are. If daemon wanted to possess an object for whatever reason, it'd be in the same ballpark as possession of a human, provided the object has a soul and has something to "inhabit", so to speak, with objects that are less complex and less accommodating of "sentience" being harder to possess. Imperial Knights and Titans are pretty easy example because you not only have a giant murder machine, you also have advanced computer systems, possibly AI and you also have the souls of it's pilots, which can be trapped inside well after their deaths, turning the actual "self" of a Daemonically possessed Imperial Knight to be an amalgamation between a Daemon(s), it's pilots, and the soul of the vehicle itself.

[Kot]

And yet, I was mentioning them left and right , you know, "polyps".

The what.

They have rules about how much space they need to do the things they do.

Those are old rules, and aside of that, you're interpreting them wrong.

1) They are approximately 3 meters in size.  They cannot physically fit inside the canister. Even *IF* they managed it, the resulting attempt to open the gate would rupture the canister, exposing the naked brain flesh inside to hard vacuum, instantly spacing it. It would die a terrible death before the process could complete, which takes about 50 hours. (ANd thats only if the monitoring system failed to notice that the subject's brainwaves were radically unusual, and failed to autoterminate anyway.)

They do not need to physically fit inside the canister. Their mind-control range is just around fifty meters, if the Enslavers were to try and control the psyker inside. The gate opening rupturing the canister is redundant, since the act of opening the gate kills the psyker anyway - it's the process of creation of that gate that takes 50-75 hours.

2) Their compulsion distance is 50 meters.  The distance to the next pod is closer to 10,000 km, for a "Close" one.

Their mind control distance is fifty meters. Enslavers themselves are known to be able to home onto psykers from "tens of light years of distance", although being creatures from Immaterium distance is somewhat of a non-solid concept.

3) enslavers do not actually fly; so they arent going to be mobile if they come out in deep space.  They are gonna be spaced if they do.

They're warp creatures, pretty much manifested nightmares - they do not actually require any real physical processes to move around or exist, it's just that they do so because it looks "good" for the living beings, which are the ones that have such nightmares in first place. Enslavers can certainly float and move around in space.

The biggest downside to Enslavers here is that they don't have that much of a stake in attacking those psykers, since they use them to open gates for themselves, which they use to mind control non-psykers. There is noone else around, as such, Enslavers that would arrive would just find themselves floating in space for a bit before returning. Of course this does effectively kill the psyker, but there could be presumably more interesting targets somewhere else. The bigger threats here would be beings that prey on psykers for "food" (which are beings like Astral Hounds which take their prey to Warp to feed on it's psychic energy) or other benefits like escape from Materium (generic Warp entities that need to feed on psykers to return to Immaterium) or reproduction (Psychneueins can infect unprotected psyker brains from over ten light years away, and even if the resulting offspring would be effectively, well, dead since it's stuck in space with little actual food, as Psychneueins are more like physical creatures utilizing psyker powers, this again, kills the psyker) and so on.

Now, the key word is unprotected - Imperial protected psykers are soul-bound to Emperor, a process which somewhat necessitates their presence on Terra, and in a state that's hopefully more than a brain in jar. There are other forms of protection, like the training Eldar have or essentially selling your soul to Chaos Gods, but none would really leave the psykers Imperium-aligned. That said, warp beings still can and will attack sanctioned psykers, however the main thing that's stopping it is that they are usually very well guarded, and any Enslavers or Astral Hounds or whatever would be quickly killed by the guards. If a psyker however is left alone (or there are enough psykers in one place that the assault could overpower the defenses) for too long, they might become food for some warp creature.
This is in addition to the usual Chaotic corruption and daemon possession shit.

[Dorsidwarf]

I missed some of the discussion but I didnt see this being brought up vis. Demon Engines/posession of machines with a will.

I always assumed that unless you start involving chaos binding magic (aka for magic demon swords) then it needs to be something with a will, such as a Knight's/Titan's machine spirit. But once the titan spirit is posessed, its body, the titan, starts undergoing demonic corruption, often into fleshy monstrosity forms and its the corruption which is irreversible rather than the posession itself.

Oh and also Im not hot on titan engine lore but arent the machine spirits of these things generally considered non-interchangeable? s'why old ones have immense pride and some older ones can kill their pilot solely through mental feedback if they're not strong enough.

[Kot]

I missed some of the discussion but I didnt see this being brought up vis. Demon Engines/posession of machines with a will.

I always assumed that unless you start involving chaos binding magic (aka for magic demon swords) then it needs to be something with a will, such as a Knight's/Titan's machine spirit. But once the titan spirit is posessed, its body, the titan, starts undergoing demonic corruption, often into fleshy monstrosity forms and its the corruption which is irreversible rather than the posession itself.

Well, yes. It's something that needs a Machine Spirit, so to speak. That "will" is the "Soul" of a being, which forms from feelings, from there being a conscious AI, the fallout of consciousnesses of the pilots, and so on. It's often explained as someone attributing human feelings to a car, until the car starts to actually have those feelings. The corruption of the physical object is reversible, but it's usually not perfect, and severing the Machine Spirit from a physical object is also a non-trivial matter.

Oh and also Im not hot on titan engine lore but arent the machine spirits of these things generally considered non-interchangeable? s'why old ones have immense pride and some older ones can kill their pilot solely through mental feedback if they're not strong enough.

Yes, which is the soul part developed by mentioned ways. The old ones have stronger souls because they took more time to develop it, presumably had more pilots, had experienced more feelings, and so on.

Is Terra in chaos space? How many psykers are there? Wasn't Big E there for how many millennia? Oh-- right, he's special because reasons... Right. /s

Terra is not in Chaos Space because psykers there are sanctioned and otherwise protected by Emperor. He is special, beacuse reasons, yes.

Perhaps you were not paying attention.  The simulation literally simulates being exposed to the immaterium, and its crazy, in a controlled manner.  The closes analog is a vaccination; Being subjected to bits of a virus, that has been rendered incapable of replication, to train the immune system to fight it on contact.  Same basic idea.  It's not just "magic school LOLS!", it's "Today you will experience mind fuck; I will stop the exercise when you fail. Then you will try again.  This will continue until you succeed, then I will expose you to MORE mindfuck."

That sounds retarded. Firstly, imitating actual Immaterium is essentially impossible, because the place defies imagination, so to speak. Secondly, subjecting a psyker to mindfuck gives you an exactly reverse result - their feelings are now negative and, well, chaotic, and if and when they develop psychic powers, they're now actively creating bad Warp juju around themselves.
Also, subjecting brains in jars to torture again.

Way to miss the point I see.  Again, the christian doctrinal faith teaches that the world is temporary, and the source of sin; You are instructed to eschew what it demands from you, and instead focus on the spiritual.  This is as close to a drop-in as you can get.  But sure, be oblivious. /s

I don't get the relevance at all.

And you are not approaching it like a cult member.  Clearly, you have never studied cults, or how they influence human psyches.  Instead of doing so, you claim you are right, because your current subjective experience, which is based not on being a cult, but on being outside one, dictates that answer.  If you cannot be bothered to actually research this shit, I wont argue with you, because it's pointless.  Suffice it to say, you are wrong.

And I will now claim you're wrong and to that stupid durr, look mom I won, hurr. People who take the time to respond and also act self-righteous in discussion while providing no arguments is one of things that are actually capable of putting me off people, because that's just practiced ignorance. Fuck off with that attitude.
Now, I still don't get how that's really relevant - just because they were indoctrinated in a manner similar to a cult, it is now effectively impossible for them to change beliefs? Man, if you did research then your research sucks ass, especially considering the most popular knowledge about cult workings comes from people who are ex-members of those, something which you now claim is impossible.

Again, same problem as above.  You are approaching it from your own narrow perspective, without thinking outside it, from other perspectives. Please, never attempt to write fiction.

Pot, kettle, something, something. Please write some fiction so people can laugh at it.

That is exactly the point. You just are so caught up in "NOOOooooo! DO. NOT. WAAAAANNNT!" to grasp it.  Ordered thoughts are still thoughts.  The highly controlled environment of the simulation removes triggers that would promote chaos-fueling thoughts, and instead foster only highly order-fueling thoughts.  The fact that it *HAS THOUGHTS* is kinda the godamn point!!

Yes, and the point is wrong. I get the idea of "orderly" thoughts impacting Immaterium, but no, psykers whole shtick is not that they have more impact on Immaterium in terms of their souls - they have more impact on Materium with their souls, which makes using psykers for the task somewhat of weird choice. Also, you're pretty caught up in "YESSSSsssss! DO. WAAAAAAANNNNT!" to actually reason properly. See? I can do it too.

Not all. Just a non-trivial portion.

Of strained war machine. On a plan that essentially cannot work.
Right.

Oh, and abducting psykers on hive worlds, and shoving them into the furnace keeping big E alive is somehow not mass murder?  Did you forget this setting or something? /s

It's not, because those psykers keep Emperor alive, and thus Imperium going. Purposefully making people just for huge amount of them to never actually accomplish something is mass murder, because it achieves nothing - they cannot die on battlefield, they cannot fuel Emperor, they do not die in factories making more guns. One is a noble sacrifice, other is just killing people because you made it so that they cannot make that sacrifice.

They have to travel via the warp to get to these pods. I don't think you grasp how far apart the scattering is intended to be.  We are talking several AU as the normative figure.  They would have to make a warp entrance/exit for *EACH POD*.  Since time taken in the immaterium is... Not consistent.. in real space, it could take them mere hours, or hundreds of years, to move from pod to pod. Depends on the currents in the area.  There are only so many ships available, sending a whole squadron is nonsense-- So we are talking breaking up squadrons to do this.

It doesn't require a big ship - there are immense numbers of small ships that could be used for this - Chaos Space Marines have a bit of an upper hand since they were effectively THE Imperial Fleet back then, and with what Horus being the de-facto military leader of Imperial forces back then, they got the best shit. Of course they have suffered attrition or losses, but it should be noted that they'd be actively supported by Chaos Gods which have immense power INSIDE the Warp, so they'd essentially be able to guide them in time to wherever they want, which is actually the main reason why Chaos Space Marine power is hard to quantify - there are still reinforcements coming that are essentially fresh from Horus Heresy. Provided the plan were to actually work then Chaos Gods would surely do everything in their power to fuck that shit up, so it'd be more concerning if they did nothing to stop it.

Mines are a thing.  Again, single ship. Not a squadron.

But for a single ship to be effectively taken out, you probably need a ship of your own. So now, instead of protecting the Imperial planets, Imperial Fleet floats around to protect some cans floating in space that might not even be important in first place, not to mention their presence, and the presumed presence of Chaos ship now provides souls which were apparently not supposed to be around the place.

A powerful mind, aligned with order, dumps its mental contents into the immaterium.  Another drop of rain falls, adding to the deluge.

That's presuming it's aligned with Order. Also, it's a drop of rain falling into the deluge of Chaotic thoughts. You'd have to essentially have more Order aligned minds than Chaotic aligned minds (and by a wide margin, since due to how Warp works disturbances caused long time ago can echo through it still, see War in Heaven), so you'd essentially need more of those brains in cans than there are living beings in entire Galaxy, give or take.
Non-trivial portion, huh?

And even if they aren't strong enough, they still become a drop of mental energy going back into the immaterium in a flood. A drop of energy that is not aligned with chaos. It's still too late.

They die. They probably have some negative emotions associated with it. That might be one sour drop.

Telling the future is literally collapsing a lightcone, with information about how a particle is behaving. It's observation. That you dont understand this is not a valid argument against it.

No, yes, not really. There are some existential real-life arguments that could be made here, but the main in-universe one it's kinda humorous talking about uncertainty principle in an universe which has essentially beings that are stretching in time and observing quite a lot, be it Chaos, Emperor or Eldar or the meta of Games Workshop authors.

[LoSboccacc]

machine spirit being an alternate name for otherwise forbidden ai or being a manifestation of the void dragon that big e tortured for power and knowledge is not really something settled yet, which further complicate matters.

[Hanslanda]

*refills popcorn *
Please continue the pointless argument about a hypothetical plan in a fictional universe with arbitrary physics and literal space magic.

[Kot]

machine spirit being an alternate name for otherwise forbidden ai or being a manifestation of the void dragon that big e tortured for power and knowledge is not really something settled yet, which further complicate matters.

Eh, it seems pretty settled really - settled on that Machine Spirit is very much not something that has a singular explanation, due to the wide variety of examples. There are things that exhibit having a Machine Spirit (aside Mechanicus believing about everything has it, I mean actual signs) despite it being very much improbable for them to have AI, and the idea of corruption and whatnot kinda proves it's not just Void Dragon, since that'd be Void Dragon working against himself. On that note, the Void Dragon theory might not be so dangerous in short run - setting aside he's, well, a C'Tan, as long as Chaos exists his goals align somewhat with Imperium, since Warp is their common enemy. That doesn't of course mean he's best buddies with Imperium, but certainly implies just waking up and starting to fuck up shit might be counter-productive for him.

*refills popcorn *
Please continue the pointless argument about a hypothetical plan in a fictional universe with arbitrary physics and literal space magic.

Thank you for your contribution.

[LordBaal]

Yeah I was answering to weird first question. The possession of machines and not air or water or food.

[wierd]

*refills popcorn *
Please continue the pointless argument about a hypothetical plan in a fictional universe with arbitrary physics and literal space magic.

Thank you for your contribution.
[/quote]


You know, if this is the way you are going to behave toward a person who is really just trying his gawd awful best to understand this fucking drek, congratulations. You, personally, have succeeded in turning me off from this game universe permanently. Good job hero. I will never post in this thread again.