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[Nelia Hawk]

but then again the "murder everything" civics races do have the advantage to not care about claims and can take over tons of space. i think that is way more an advantage than caring about the 10 years peace.

[Egan_BW]

Sure they have an advantage, it still doesn't make any damn sense why they care about the treaty.

[Rolan7]

They also have the disadvantage that every empire has the exact same CB back at them, with a different name, and hates them just as much.  I assume that's why they seemed to get stomped fast in my games (perhaps mitigated now with chokepoint-hyperlanes, but still).
I think they get a fire speed/influence boost too, but not enough for the AI to faceroll.
A player, with the slightest amount of guile when initially evaluating neighbors and choosing borders - different story.  Then pure faceroll after early game.

[Criptfeind]

I feel like as far as multiplayer balancing goes, they might be better off with a checkbox to disable them as playable nations for players rather then being a sorted watered down and boring implementation of what its potential is. Like, does anyone think that stellaris should be the game sacrificing fun game mechanics to try to be a really tight competitive multiplayer four x? It feels like stellaris is the last four x that should be chasing that goal to me honestly. But I'm not sure that you can really blame multiplayer for it, as a sorted watered down and boring implementation of what its potential is kinda describes the whole game.

[EnigmaticHat]

...is there any other Space 4x you can think of that people regularly play multiplayer?  Because all I've got is Sins of a Solar Empire and that's a sort of 4x/RTS love child.

[Criptfeind]

I mean, games that I think are closer to being viable as a competitive multiplayer thing then stellaris: Almost any other space 4x. In my own personal experience off the top of my head MoO and Endless space both feel more readily 'gamey' then stellaris when playing multiplayer.

But I think it's important to note that I'm not talking about just multiplayer, but doing it heavily competitively, stellaris is good for a more casual and friendly game of multiplayer, but watering down features and wasting potential in the name of some hard core competitiveness in the multiplayer is a mistake and trying to make stellaris do something it's not great at at the cost of what it, at least could be, good at. Make the game actually interesting to play first, then you can worry about making it more competitive in multiplayer (even if that means making a toggle that disallows the more out there options in play.) because right now the exterminator races are pretty disappointing to play or at least just... to much the same as everything else. And that's kinda stellaris big issue in the long run is that everything it just too much the same as everything else.

[ZeroGravitas]

Wait, that was a thing you could do?  I had a science ship trapped across the galaxy because of that and just had to wait for the hostile empire to expand to the system for the ship to go missing, since I didn't know that was something I could do.  This was before the speculative hyperlane breaching tech was introduced.

Relatedly, it's kind of annoying that empires can close borders with magical forcefields.  It would be more interesting if you could go into their territory anyway and just make them mad.

I think they said it’s a deliberate choice to stop play of the “park capital fleets over every vulnerable word, bypassing any static defenses, then declare war” variety?

yeah, but that's easily solved with forcing fleets into MIA mode if they're in enemy territory when the war starts (some Civs) or simply blocking war declarations if you're in enemy territory (EU4 and CK2 do this).

[Madman198237]

forcing fleets into MIA mode if they're in enemy territory when the war starts

This already happens in-game, based on my completely-un-modded personal experience.

[ZeroGravitas]

forcing fleets into MIA mode if they're in enemy territory when the war starts

This already happens in-game, based on my completely-un-modded personal experience.

good - one less reason to have magically closed borders

[EnigmaticHat]

I mean in real life walking an army into someone's territory *is* a declaration of war.  Every other nation would view that as a war of aggression.  Paradox is forcing you to go to the diplomacy screen/preventing players from starting misclick wars.

[Nelia Hawk]

reminds me of... i think civ games... that have that popup too about "declare war?" when you try to move your army into other peoples areas

[ZeroGravitas]

I mean in real life walking an army into someone's territory *is* a declaration of war.  Every other nation would view that as a war of aggression.  Paradox is forcing you to go to the diplomacy screen/preventing players from starting misclick wars.

plenty of other games don't do this. ck2, total wars, etc.

real life is not a good guide to making an interesting game.

[ZeroGravitas]

Counter-example- EU4 does make you do this.

yes, as was discussed above.

[Persus13]

I mean in real life walking an army into someone's territory *is* a declaration of war.  Every other nation would view that as a war of aggression.  Paradox is forcing you to go to the diplomacy screen/preventing players from starting misclick wars.

plenty of other games don't do this. ck2, total wars, etc.

real life is not a good guide to making an interesting game.

Both the examples you cited take cues from real life.

In CKII's time period, there wasn't really the modern concept of closed borders, so marching an army through someone else's territory could happen and there wasn't much rulers could do about that. Total War uses the same concept but gives you consequences for it that make sense. You're free to move your armies around someone else's territory, but unless you get military access from them first, their opinion of you is going to drop significantly.

[ZeroGravitas]

Total War uses the same concept but gives you consequences for it that make sense. You're free to move your armies around someone else's territory, but unless you get military access from them first, their opinion of you is going to drop significantly.

funny, i wonder if anyone has ever suggested doing that in stellaris