Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Frumple]

Also didn't write the scripture, so it's kinda' irrelevant whether the metaphorical critter did or didn't :V

[TD1]

To believers it is. It is an ultra-accurate recording of what Jesus said, despite how implausible that seems.

[Helgoland]

To believers it is. It is an ultra-accurate recording of what Jesus said, despite how implausible that seems.

For Northern Irish Protestants maybe. The rest of the world minus a few crazies recognizes that there are contradictions even within the bible itself, making your sola scriptura a pure absurdity.

[TD1]

In that case I retract my statement. Perhaps my difficulty in finding anybody, including Catholics, who even looks at those issues without trying to contort them into their own world/bible view is based on my locality. I doubt it, though. When something as important to you as religion is challenged, I'd say most would ignore or reinterpret it.

I don't know, though.

[Helgoland]

You aren't in an area for thorough and open-minded theology, yeah

[TD1]

Amen to that, brother

A Christian friend a while back was saying that the Bible was absolute proof, so I showed him a list of contradictions in it. He wouldn't accept them unless they were from the King James Bible, because apparently it's the most accurate, and even when I showed him the relative stuff, he didn't alter his stance.

As I said though, I didn't know this was a local thing, specificly, more a theistic tendency to make lemonade from the biblical lemons

[Helgoland]

I don't think it's precisely a local thing - you're bound to find lots of that stuff in the US as well. Bt I wouldn't be surprised if it was more concentrated among Anglo-Saxons than among others. As I said, Catholics don't believe that silliness.

[TD1]

*Shrug*

I'd disagree with that - Catholics still think the Bible is absolute, they just add the Pope in there too, with the Church being able to twiddle what's absolute.

Seems more silly, actually.

[Helgoland]

the Bible is absolute

the Church being able to twiddle what's absolute

You see the contradiction?

[wierd]

The part I cant seem to find reconcilable, is the apparent intolerance of the christian god for hipocrisy, coupled with his repeated and consistent message against following dogmatic doctrinces ("Teachings of man", et al.) in the face of the catholic arguments against sola scriptura.

There's a reason why Martin Luther nailed his list of thesies to the church door you know.

Catholicism just drips with dogmatic practice that seems unfounded in the core cannon of the religion-- It is the very thing that Jesus actually got lividly angry about in regard to prior behaviors by the pharisees and saducees. (Though to be quite honest, the "fundamentalist christian" movement in the US would equally raise his ire IIRC.)

[TD1]

the Bible is absolute

the Church being able to twiddle what's absolute

You see the contradiction?

Of course. That's why it's so silly that Catholics think it. It's absolute! Obey God, and so on, until some dogmatic church doctrine is shoved into their mouth and they are weaned off the original message. Suddenly, the new one is absolute and the old one just a misunderstanding, or the work of those in ignorance.

[Helgoland]

Catholicism just drips with dogmatic practice that seems unfounded in the core cannon of the religion-- It is the very thing that Jesus actually got lividly angry about in regard to prior behaviors by the pharisees and saducees. (Though to be quite honest, the "fundamentalist christian" movement in the US would equally raise his ire IIRC.)

I doubt that he got angry at people following stuff that wasn't explicitly mentioned in the bible... He got angry at people abusing their power and losing faith. Although the second implies the first, there is a world of difference in between.

Also IIRC there's no evidence of said nailing ever having been done.

Of course. That's why it's so silly that Catholics think it. It's absolute! Obey God, and so on, until some dogmatic church doctrine is shoved into their mouth and they are weaned off the original message. Suddenly, the new one is absolute and the old one just a misunderstanding, or the work of those in ignorance.

I don't get what you're saying. Are you claiming that Catholics hold the bible to be absolute? You seem to imply that, and I've told you repeatedly that it's wrong. And are you claiming that Catholics hold the Church/what the Church says to be absolute? That's only true for a very, very limited number of things. Papal infallibility only applies to teachings ex cathedra, and these are few and far in between.

[TD1]

I'm saying Catholics are subjectivists hiding under absolutism. Much of the stuff they view as absolute has been changed and edited, sometimes contradicting the original message, e.g. that cult of Mary worshippers.

Both catholics and protestants view the teachings of God to be in the Bible. Catholicism got too avaricious - saint worshipping brought, and brings, big bucks - and the Lutherans broke away. For reform of corrupt doctrine, so the divine word of Jesus and God takes precedence over centuries of manipulation and profiteering. Quite frankly, I think the Church REALLY needed a clean slate.

I think my argument drifted a bit there, but meh.

[Helgoland]

Much of the stuff they view as absolute

What stuff do you refer to? There's really very little that fits the bill...

[TempAcc]

Eh, personaly I know very few catholics who consider the bible to be infallible. That argument usualy comes from people who never attempted to properly study it, or protestant pastors who reign in people by convincing them that the bible (IE their personal interpretation of the bible) is infallible and everyone is going to hell for not listening to him. Faithful or not, considering the bible, a document formed out of dozens of different testimonies and accounts, and subjected to multiple translations and interpretations through a period of more then a thousand years, as infallible, is a bit foolish.

I'm not saying that the catholic church hasn't profitted from its definitions and interpretations of the bible, or that its doctrine faithfuly portrays the ideas of Jesus Christ or the will of God, but modern catholics (well, at least the ones I know) dont seem hellbent of gulping down everything the vatican says or that they read in the bible as "absolute truth". This isn't the medieval age in which you'd be branded a heretic and burned for having your own interpretation, after all.

What I'm saying is that catholics often get dissed due to american society's general view of christians as bible-thumping wife-beating angry old people, and while the catholic church certainly isn't perfect or completely consistent with its doctrine, its still quite a bit more consistent then other groups out there, specialy the ones actively using the bible as a way to spread hatred.

Just my two cents on the matter, and I'm not even a catholic, mind you. I grew up in a protestant family, albeit a rather nice and open minded one.