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[Leafsnail]

This lists three different tier 1 decks with Yogg in. I guess you need to have access to a lot of spells to utilize him properly though while Sylv and Rag are just generally strong cards.
https://tempostorm.com/hearthstone/meta-snapshot/standard/2016-09-18

[Criptfeind]

Huh. I'm surprised they rate tempo mage as tier one.

Edit: But yeah yog turns out to just be pretty good in the right deck.

[Wiles]

Interestingly enough another popular tier list (vS Data Reaper Report) lists Tempo Mage at tier 3.

http://www.vicioussyndicate.com/vs-data-reaper-report-19/

[frostshotgg]

The difference seems to be in matchup evaluation. vS gives Tempo Mage a pretty rough winrate for Aggro Shaman, which hugely negatively impacts its score because aggro shaman is such a huge portion of the ladder right now, while Tempostorm actually thinks the matchup is favorable for Tempo Mage. I wonder if there's some data somewhere skewing it in favor of aggro shaman disproportionately or if TS's mage expert is either wrong or knows something we don't.

[Darkmere]

I'm not sure what tempostorm uses, but isn't vS reaper supposed to be drawn from real match data from HDT or something?

Tempo mage with good draws will slap aggo shaman around a bit, but otherwise they're kinda screwed. That or the tempo mages I went against got bad draws, which is entirely possible.

[frostshotgg]

vS uses data from lots of games, not exactly sure how they gather it. That means stuff like new players who have no idea what they're doing are included which could skew the data for harder decks. Tempostorm uses experts who evaluate matchups based on their experience, to my understanding. So there could be bias involved.

[Criptfeind]

I think vS use a program called track-o-bot, and probably not a perfect forumla, but at least somewhat self correcting in that it uses actual stats instead of expert opinion... I have to say, outa the two sites I'm somewhat inclined to believe in vS more, if just because trump (the only hearthstone streamer I actually watch >.>) suggested them. Also some minor thing about how I don't like how tempostorm does their decklists, except for very static decks I'm pretty sure they don't try to find the general best variant of it, but instead just use a close enough deck list from a streamer or something, so you get weird tech choices for high legendary or tournaments, or even just straight up experiments standing in for "popular" decks. Of course, perhaps vS does the same thing, idk because I've never looked at their actual decklists before >.>

[Sindain]

Yeah Vs uses track-o-bot. Also I don't think it includes data from matches above rank 15. So while it will definitely include some data from not-the-greatest players its not gunna include data from full on noobs.

Though Vs does only take into account ladder matches, so the power rankings of certain decks can be quite different at the tournament level due to bans and such.

[Leafsnail]

vS uses data from lots of games, not exactly sure how they gather it. That means stuff like new players who have no idea what they're doing are included which could skew the data for harder decks. Tempostorm uses experts who evaluate matchups based on their experience, to my understanding. So there could be bias involved.

Yeah both methods have their downsides. VS will always be heavily biased towards easy to play midrange decks because most people won't know how to play decks like Spell Druid properly. Tempostorm could be (and quite often is) just incorrect.

[Criptfeind]

Since we were just speaking of vS previously, I thought I'd link to an interesting article they just put out, where they used their match data to predict the outcome of a tournament. Correctly predicting (or I guess, at least they claim to correctly predict, since they are only putting out their prediction after the tournament happened.) 6 out of 7 matches and the ultimate winner of the tournament.

They are released a prediction on another tournament that's ongoing (in about 30 minutes). Although it's a lot less strong of a prediction (in the last case they gave the winner a 20% chance, here it's only 14%, almost even with everyone else.)

Interesting stuff to me at least.

Edit: Turns out their predictions were almost all wrong.

[Criptfeind]

New nerfs have been announced. Pretty much what we've probably been expecting for the most part.

Rockbiter goes to 2 mana, combo too strong for the discount I guess. I think this is a fair nerf and it'll still sorta be playable. It's normally not THAT hard to hold off for another turn before you do the combo, but of course it'll knock a few close wins out.

Tuskarr Totemic can only summon basic totems, fair enough, Tuskarr was always sorta the poster boy for the bad side of rng. I'm not sure if it'll still be played in the aggro decks (which might weaken the 0 mana 5/5 if it's not) but probably playable in totem combo decks.... Maybe?

Call of the wild is 9 mana. Good.

Execute is 2 mana. Good.

Charge is removed from the game. (not literally but it's a 1 mana adds charge, no extra damage, can't attack face) Fits with how they don't want charge to be a thing. Thinking about it, after they decided they didn't like charge as a mechanic, it really was only a matter of time until the card with the literal name of what they hate was on the chopping block.

Abusive Sargent is loosing an attack. A nerf that they missed during the first round. I think this isn't as bad for it as it was for the gnome, still feels playable maybe.

Yogg-Saron now overloads and if it's removed from the board it's effect stops. Big old nerf. I'm not going to try to call if it's still playable.

[Arx]

Rockbiter goes to 2 mana, combo too strong for the discount I guess. I think this is a fair nerf and it'll still sorta be playable. It's normally not THAT hard to hold off for another turn before you do the combo, but of course it'll knock a few close wins out.

I... guess? I'm not sold on this. Divine Strength is 1 mana, permanent, and as a trade-off doesn't target heroes. Shaman has a lot more windfury though, I guess.

Tuskarr Totemic can only summon basic totems, fair enough, Tuskarr was always sorta the poster boy for the bad side of rng. I'm not sure if it'll still be played in the aggro decks (which might weaken the 0 mana 5/5 if it's not) but probably playable in totem combo decks.... Maybe?

Kind of feel like that should maybe have been like that from the beginning.

Call of the wild is 9 mana. Good.

Not entirely sure what this is fixing, since it's not like Midrange Hunter has been even close to oppressive, but sure. It's decent.

Execute is 2 mana. Good.

Seems reasonable. It's not like Warrior is starved for removal.

Charge is removed from the game. (not literally but it's a 1 mana adds charge, no extra damage, can't attack face) Fits with how they don't want charge to be a thing. Thinking about it, after they decided they didn't like charge as a mechanic, it really was only a matter of time until the card with the literal name of what they hate was on the chopping block.

Ugh. I guess it makes sense in terms of Hearthstone's consistent design philosophy, but I feel like they're continuously simplifying the game to its detriment.

Abusive Sargent is loosing an attack. A nerf that they missed during the first round. I think this isn't as bad for it as it was for the gnome, still feels playable maybe.

I don't think this is unreasonable. It's not ideal, but it might be part of the hit aggro needs right now.

Yogg-Saron now overloads and if it's removed from the board it's effect stops. Big old nerf. I'm not going to try to call if it's still playable.

I don't think the overload is inherently massive. Whether the removal part renders it unuseable remains to be seen. Yogg is such an odd card to pin down, it took a while before its place in the meta shook out in the first place.

[Wiles]

Rockbiter goes to 2 mana, combo too strong for the discount I guess. I think this is a fair nerf and it'll still sorta be playable. It's normally not THAT hard to hold off for another turn before you do the combo, but of course it'll knock a few close wins out.

I... guess? I'm not sold on this. Divine Strength is 1 mana, permanent, and as a trade-off doesn't target heroes. Shaman has a lot more windfury though, I guess.

Divine strength is pretty lousy in comparison though. With rockbiter you could pull off excellent trades or do some serious burst if you had doomhammer. A more comparable card might be power overwhelming. If warlock ever gets too strong I wouldn't be surprised if that card gets a similar nerf.

[Criptfeind]

Divine Strength

Divine Strength isn't really anything like rockbiter... Sorta. It's a buff card in theory for building up a dude and getting better trades, hopefully with your dude surviving, rockbiter is a a removal/burst card with combo potential. Blessing of might is closer, but ether way they are not anywhere within leagues of each other power wise. "Having to have a dude on the board" is a much higher drawback then the effect only lasting a single turn.

Not entirely sure what this is fixing, since it's not like Midrange Hunter has been even close to oppressive, but sure. It's decent.

Izzzz.... Actually a reasonable concern. Midrange hunter is actually one of the best decks around, it's just bullied by aggro decks and shaman (which means it's a lot less good in this meta), but it bullies the control decks pretty hard. As a class right now hunter is just sorta too good in the mid game and too weak in the early game. In a way, call of the wild would be incredibly op if it wasn't a hunter card. So I'd guess they are nerffing the mid game a tad so that can give them some stuff in the next expansion without unbalancing them.

[Leafsnail]

Rockbiter seems like a bad hit to me. Midrange Shaman can easily survive the nerf and it will hurt new players (Basic Shaman is actually pretty decent and Rockbiter is one of its stronger cards - since you can target your hero it's very efficient removal). It also means Shaman will go back to being bad as soon as the current expansions rotate.

The Yogg nerf is a real shame and probably means I'll quit this game for a while, those were always the funnest decks to play.