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[MoLAoS]

I guess you don't understand what fully general counter argument means. When someone throws down a WHOLE LIST of the damn things, its already clear that a serious discussion would be a waste of time, at least with them.

[Neonivek]

I guess you don't understand what fully general counter argument means. When someone throws down a WHOLE LIST of the damn things, its already clear that a serious discussion would be a waste of time, at least with them.

It was over as soon as the list said "People with Grievances are WRONG!"

Which is an annoying attitude in general... but still it wasn't the list but rather the context of the list.

Which is why I am not going to fight the context.

[MoLAoS]

It's a bad thing because you've done nothing to earn it.

No one "deserves" anything GlyphGryph.

Me siding with being "entitled" is more of a "So, actually wanting to play something we like is terrible?"

You're "problem" isn't that good things aren't getting made anymore (they are) or even that things aren't being made anymore that target your demographic (they are), but rather that things *are* being made that target *someone else*.

How many I put it GlyphGryph...

My problem is I like Pizza... and a while ago I had it good because the only people who liked pizza was me and an audience who were Pizza Connoisseurs, so Pizzas were marketed towards an audience who generally tried a lot of pizza. Yet slowly over time people started to catch onto how good Pizza is.

Now everyone is eating pizza... but instead of making the pizzas with any flavor, they have to make it to sell to as many people as possible and be as easy to swallow as possible.

So Pizzas are now bland and mushy, because they are there to appeal to everyone instead of this select group... and I am not happy because I didn't grow up on bland pizza, I grew up on tasty pizza. So Bland doesn't cut it for me.

Pretty much this. So bland!!!!!!!! Argh!!!!

[GlyphGryph]

Right, moving past the fact that this still just amounts to entitled whining, do you have any evidence it's even valid.

Any evidence, at all, that there are fewer interesting games ("high quality pizzas") being made today than there were... whenever?

Again, do you have an actual *argument*, or just a general desire to complain?

[Urist McScoopbeard]

How many I put it GlyphGryph...

My problem is I like Pizza... and a while ago I had it good because the only people who liked pizza was me and an audience who were Pizza Connoisseurs, so Pizzas were marketed towards an audience who generally tried a lot of pizza. Yet slowly over time people started to catch onto how good Pizza is.

Now everyone is eating pizza... but instead of making the pizzas with any flavor, they have to make it to sell to as many people as possible and be as easy to swallow as possible.

So Pizzas are now bland and mushy, because they are there to appeal to everyone instead of this select group... and I am not happy because I didn't grow up on bland pizza, I grew up on tasty pizza. So Bland doesn't cut it for me.

A good, but ultimately non sequiter analogy. Videogames are literally better in every way, shape, and form than 20, 10, 5 years ago. In some ways videogames have been "dumbed down", but ultimately it's just that you've played it all before. Companies don't have to be innovative, their products are still excellent quality, especially to young gamers who aren't familiar with older games. What i'm trying to say is, the pizza is still tasty as shit, but you've had it so many times you can't eat any more.

EDIT: ninja'd

[MoLAoS]

Right, moving past the fact that this still just amounts to entitled whining, do you have any evidence it's even valid.

Any evidence, at all, that there are fewer interesting games ("high quality pizzas") being made today than there were... whenever?

Again, do you have an actual *argument*, or just a general desire to complain?

"Entitled Whiners! Provide me with well thought out evidence I will just dismiss with my FGCAs!"

No.

Ask yourself why you have to post here. If we are just entitled whiners, why not just go play all those fun games out there that are being made these days. I for one, if there were tons of fabulous games to play, would be out there doing that, instead of arguing with people I clearly have no respect for.

[MoLAoS]

How many I put it GlyphGryph...

My problem is I like Pizza... and a while ago I had it good because the only people who liked pizza was me and an audience who were Pizza Connoisseurs, so Pizzas were marketed towards an audience who generally tried a lot of pizza. Yet slowly over time people started to catch onto how good Pizza is.

Now everyone is eating pizza... but instead of making the pizzas with any flavor, they have to make it to sell to as many people as possible and be as easy to swallow as possible.

So Pizzas are now bland and mushy, because they are there to appeal to everyone instead of this select group... and I am not happy because I didn't grow up on bland pizza, I grew up on tasty pizza. So Bland doesn't cut it for me.

A good, but ultimately non sequiter analogy. Videogames are literally better in every way, shape, and form than 20, 10, 5 years ago. In some ways videogames have been "dumbed down", but ultimately it's just that you've played it all before. Companies don't have to be innovative, their products are still excellent quality, especially to young gamers who aren't familiar with older games. What i'm trying to say is, the pizza is still tasty as shit, but you've had it so many times you can't eat any more.

EDIT: ninja'd

Don't think you know what non-sequiter means.

Video games are not in fact better in every way. They are shinier, but that's about it.

[Neonivek]

It all boils down to opinion GryphGlyph since it cannot be "proven" either way.

Can you prove videogames are just as innovative, and fun, and great as they always were? You could list a lot of games and I could list a lot of games. It won't go anywhere.

Mind you, my feeling of videogames is that their general quality hasn't changed... But where classics hit more highs and lows (You will NEVER find more terrible games), modern games hit more of a in the middle with less that stand out.

My main point is that saying people should just be happy or shut up is asking people to be dishonest with their feelings. I'd rather be entitled then someone who tries to force everyone to like what they do.

 

What i'm trying to say is, the pizza is still tasty as shit

You can still eat good pizza.

Yet anytime I pour over the classics I am really blown away by some of the concepts and gameplay elements they came up with exploratory gameplay and kind of wonder why innovation just sort of trickles in. As well a lot of these games were genuinely hard and had a learning curve, people like to talk about Dark Souls as some sort of amazingly tough game as a feature. We gotten to the point where "Not easy" is a feature!

And don't get me wrong, a lot of these games were just offshoots of other games. Yet even within that they got pretty interesting. A few genuinely felt ahead of their time (Laura Bow and the Colonel's Bequest would be innovative even if made today). and heck I wasn't born in that Era of gaming (I started gaming during the SNES era)

[Tawa]

-snip-

You forgot me.

Sorry, I was mostly referring to the arguments of the people supporting the threads premise, rather than those opposed.

Oh, I read it out of context.

[MoLAoS]

Pretty much its all about opinion. We MIGHT be able to prove it, if we had the resources of a company like Google or Wolfram or something working on it non stop with a huge budget analyzing every game ever.

Fat chance though, right?

[Neonivek]

Not to mention MoLAoS...

Entitled implies that we believe we "deserve" better.

What part of "We don't like the current batch of games and would like it to be better or to appeal to us more" is Entitled?

Which is the ultimate problem with the term "entitled", it is never used in the right context.

[GlyphGryph]

It all boils down to opinion GryphGlyph since it cannot be "proven" either way.

He says, as if opinions can't be horribly and blatantly wrong.

"Entitled Whiners! Provide me with well thought out evidence I will just dismiss with my FGCAs!"

No.

Ask yourself why you have to post here. If we are just entitled whiners, why not just go play all those fun games out there that are being made these days. I for one, if there were tons of fabulous games to play, would be out there doing that, instead of arguing with people I clearly have no respect for.

Well, it's good to see your ability to make baseless claims applies to areas *other* than video games, I guess?

Still, "I don't have to make a good argument because you'd just dismiss it anyway, so let me make some more unsupported claims" is pretty weak. And I enjoy arguing with people (more than playing video games of any sort sometimes, to be honest), although I prefer to do so with people capable of making an actual, coherent argument, and you're right - it doesn't seem like I'm going to get anyone like that from this thread unless I go full-on devil's advocate, since you've gotten to the point where you're apparently going to rely on "because reasons" and "that's just, like, your opinion, man" as your ultimate justification, as if I'm the only one you're failing to convince that your views have any merit.

So I might just do that - I'll get back to you. Since I like arguing but don't find much pleasure in whining, it might be fun to see if I can put together a coherent and defensible argument to represent your point of view.

[Neonivek]

since you've gotten to the point where you're apparently going to rely on "because reasons" as your ultimate justification, as if I'm the only one you're failing to convince that your views have any merit

Because who the heck wants to do that? Who the world wants to pause their life, delve hours into a list of games, play them, watch videos, and write reviews... ALL for the intent of defending their opinion because someone just doesn't accept that someone has a different opinion then them?

This is just supposed to be a fun thread for people to express themselves. Not an interrogation.

it might be fun to see if I can put together a coherent and defensible argument to represent your point of view.

It isn't because all it boils down to is examples that can be argued against with counter examples... and that isn't fun.

And heck it isn't like classic games didn't have their terrible awkward periods (early 3d period... UUGH!)

Not to mention you still have to filter the games.

[The13thRonin]

First of all GlyphGryph you need to calm down because you are borderline if not outright flaming some people in this thread. Commenting on someones posting history is attacking them directly as a poster and not actually discussing their post.

I read the thread - was there a singly actual argument being made about the "videogame industry" being any worse now than it was at some point in the past? Any evidence presented, any coherent arguments made? Because I just reread the thread (again) and I couldn't fine them. Certainly a lot of claims have been made, but the "it sucks" proponents seem to be a bit averse to mounting an actual concrete defense of those claims.

Want some advice on how to do that? Pick two years  - 199x and 2013 would work, I imagine - and then establish a set of criteria by which you think things might have been "better" on the earlier date. Then cite some actual evidence that those claims were true - perhaps comparisons on the number of games released, or something, I don't know, I'm not the one making the claim, I don't have to find the evidence, and I don't even know what specific claims would be made anyway.

Then explain how the evidence presented supports the claims, and then we will respond by pointing out any potential flaws, and accepting the argument if the evidence is strong enough, agreeing with your claims. We may then dispute whether or not those claims are actually representative of the general critique offered by the OP, but that's another level of conversation there.

No matter what 'evidence' you post someone will always dispute your methods. Case in point I used Metacritic User Scores and was told that this is not a good gauge of how 'good' a game is despite games being you know... A form of popular media with the entire point of being enjoyed . Nice counter-argument there to the scores... I guess we should give up having reviews altogether.

I'm sorry that you feel bored. I wrote this post primarily for me, you do not have to read it.

I don't get paid to write threads here on Bay 12 and I don't particularly want to waste my time spending hundreds of hours crafting graphs and compiling statistics that will then just be ignored anyway just to try to convince you of the truth. If you don't want to accept the truth then that's your business.

Also to the naysayers of the Metacritics scores follow each series through:

Diablo 1: 8.7 released 1996
Diablo 2: 8.7 released 2000
Diablo 3: 3.9 released 2012

You'll find that with most series the same trend is followed.

[Neonivek]

I don't like using scores mostly 13thRonin because they are always compared to the average of the time.

As well they are prone to what I call "score inflation".

Also is Diablo 3 really a 3.9? I thought it was "alright"... Not bad. Even if I stopped playing it because it just relentlessly bored me.

---

In Fairness I think 2d plane fighting games like Tekken and Streetfighter are genuinely better now then in the past (outside a few missteps).