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Author Topic: WH40K discussion thread: from Tyran's heart I stab at thee.  (Read 965345 times)

Urist McScoopbeard

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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: Disorder Vacuum Seamen.
« Reply #1875 on: October 12, 2015, 04:12:09 pm »

and it decides if it wants to shoot or not.

"You know what, Todd? Maybe, you're the heretic. I don't have to fire for you."
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Egan_BW

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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: Disorder Vacuum Seamen.
« Reply #1876 on: October 12, 2015, 05:03:43 pm »

Let's be honest, there's probably a fragment of void dragon in every bolter.
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Tack

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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: Disorder Vacuum Seamen.
« Reply #1877 on: October 12, 2015, 09:01:46 pm »

Probably, but we don't like to think of it.

But yeah, zero canon I've read says that machine spirits are various brains in jars.
That being said, what machine spirits actually are aren't locked in any canon and are very open to interpretation by GW design.

So saying 'actually, it's this' is pretty well pissing in the wind unless you have the [citation required].
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nenjin

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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: Disorder Vacuum Seamen.
« Reply #1878 on: October 12, 2015, 09:18:53 pm »

It's just the distinction between AI and program is very murky in 40k, muddled even further by its execution in the texts. Space Marine X believes the war spirit of his bolter's targeter locks on to threats because it knows and thinks about these things. It further anthropomorphizes it by saying stuff like "it eagerly targeted the heretic's hearts, sensing its ancient foe." Meanwhile Space Marine Y (or writer Y) talks about it more mechanical terms. A targeter does what it does because it has subroutines and logic circuits and blah blah blah sacred techno mysteries the techmarines understand.

A program for your targeter is probably ok. An artificial intelligence that knows what to do with the data is not.

Other writers treat it more clinically, dancing around what a targeter is and how it does its work. Forget how complicated managing all the systems of Space Marine power armor must be, I've always been somewhat fascinated by how small things, that aren't skull-sized, work in 40k. Like targeters. Like handheld auspex. That's where theory vs. superstition really comes head to head. I've even read it that Machine Spirits are all blends of human and machine consciousness, where the beginning of one and the end of the other aren't distinguishable anymore. No brain in a jar, so to speak.

Which is to me the most metal interpretation of 40k tech. Space Marine armor literally has the machine-soul of a venerable Space Marine to run its systems, that probably remembers every marine that's ever lived and died in that armor, who can occasionally do sentient shit like work just a little harder to get the job done before failing. I don't think 40k's execution or lack of resolution to this question is bad or flawed. I think it's actually quite brilliant.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2015, 09:21:58 pm by nenjin »
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: Disorder Vacuum Seamen.
« Reply #1879 on: October 12, 2015, 10:04:15 pm »

The last interpretation is essentially canon, since everything gets more powerful as it gets older and the previous owners element is essentially why the Phoenix Lords exist.
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Rolepgeek

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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: Disorder Vacuum Seamen.
« Reply #1880 on: October 12, 2015, 10:33:38 pm »

Phoenix Lords ain't exactly machine spirits, you know...
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: Disorder Vacuum Seamen.
« Reply #1881 on: October 12, 2015, 10:40:51 pm »

That part doesn't have anything to do with machine spirits, but the concept that people leave an indelible but ethereal influence on the world around them, thereby creating the ability for there to be artifacts in a sci-fi series. The Phoenix Lords are just an extreme example.
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Urist McScoopbeard

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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: Disorder Vacuum Seamen.
« Reply #1882 on: October 12, 2015, 10:50:22 pm »

Probably, but we don't like to think of it.

But yeah, zero canon I've read says that machine spirits are various brains in jars.
That being said, what machine spirits actually are aren't locked in any canon and are very open to interpretation by GW design.

So saying 'actually, it's this' is pretty well pissing in the wind unless you have the [citation required].

Lexicanum as per usual

EDIT: Although more widely speaking, "machine spirit" seems to refer to similar systems in both weapons and armor. I'll try an find the original source of the description of a bolter's systems. It's vague on the main lexicanum page.

EDIT2: that "other" 40k wikia The number of advanced components in and the described operation of the bolter would indicate that it does indeed have a machine spirit, it's also explicitly stated. As far as it being part human brain, i dunno, but the organics part is entirely in-fluff.

Also, i'm trying to find the description for the 40k equivalent of a friend or foe targeting lock, I forget what it's called (something like "sniffer" I think) that basically makes use of a nose to remember the scent of nearby comrades (in a squad preferably) disallowing you to fire on them.

EDIT3: A lot of this stuff is found pretty easily in the 40k "Only War" books for tabletop role-playing.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2015, 11:04:12 pm by Urist McScoopbeard »
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TempAcc

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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: Disorder Vacuum Seamen.
« Reply #1883 on: October 13, 2015, 08:03:00 am »

Phoenix Lords are a special case though, given the Eldar's tendency towards soul preserving shenaningas, even going to such lenght that whoever wears the armor actualy becomes that specific phoenix lord, with memories of past lives and everything, AFAIK.

As with every weird aspect of 40k, machine spirits can be explained through warp fuckerytm. By having a strong enough belief that a spirit inhabits a certain piece of machinery and that said spirit performs one or another activity in certain contexts, the techpriests are essentialy creating psychic constructs that actualy become the machine spirits. I think this is even mentioned/theorized upon in-universe by some inquisitor who would love to burn some techpriests, but I'm not sure. Then again, this is pretty much how the inquisition defines any form of psychic thingamabobery that isn't explicitly tied to the ecclesiarchy and the emperor.
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Tack

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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: Disorder Vacuum Seamen.
« Reply #1884 on: October 13, 2015, 10:39:07 am »

Phoenix Lords are a special case though, given the Eldar's tendency towards soul preserving shenaningas, even going to such lenght that whoever wears the armor actualy becomes that specific phoenix lord, with memories of past lives and everything, AFAIK.

Yeah Pheonix Lords work differently -Re: Spirit stones.
Which are basically the souls of long-dead eldar condensed into special rocks via warp fuckery. (Don't blame me, blame Gav Thorpe).
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: Disorder Vacuum Seamen.
« Reply #1885 on: October 13, 2015, 06:30:53 pm »

Machine spirits are:
-Humans in some way uploaded to their mechanical stuff. Warp trickery may be involved.
-Warp delusions enforced by the Mechanicus to ward off warp infestation.
-Actual mechanical spirits. Warpiness involved.
-Programs that regularly need to send error reports to ArchMagosoft
-Minute copies or shards of the Void Dragon.

Given how all representations have appeared in fluff it's probably safe to say that it varies from machine to machine.

Egan_BW

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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: Disorder Vacuum Seamen.
« Reply #1886 on: October 13, 2015, 06:33:13 pm »

-All of the above.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: Disorder Vacuum Seamen.
« Reply #1887 on: October 13, 2015, 06:36:01 pm »

I enjoy the theory that the Void Dragon's millennia of ruminating on being beat to shit by the Emperor ended up making it decide humans were the right horse to back and has been free for a while.
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sprinkled chariot

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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: Disorder Vacuum Seamen.
« Reply #1888 on: October 24, 2015, 08:11:53 am »

If the space marine weapons, equipment( jump packs) and some vehicles( droppod, hover bike) are supposed for their superhuman physiology and reflexes, how there are STC for all of that made in dark age?
It is strange, that they would invent unusable devices just for shits and giggles.
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Tack

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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: Disorder Vacuum Seamen.
« Reply #1889 on: October 24, 2015, 08:26:08 am »

I think the Emperor modded them.
Which doesn't make an amazing amount of sense.

That or the space marine gear was made for different 8-ft tall humanoids they had back in the dark age of technology.

Someone else probably has more canon-y speculations than me, though.
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Yeah, he's a banned spammer. Normally we'd delete this thread too, but people were having too much fun with it by the time we got here.
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