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[smjjames]

When the spheres of influence of each god are so large, it's inevitable one aspect is going to stand in direct opposition to something from each of the others. Tzeentch v. Nurgle, Change vs. Stagnation, as an alternate example. As above. At this point the motives of the gods are all open to interpretation, or what form what takes. (Nurgle could alternatively be seen, and has been seen, as not stagnation but proliferation, where one death creates 1,000,000 new lives in the form of bacteria and insects. It could even be argued that Nurgle embraces the elements of change, where a living thing is killed and a maggot grows on its skin to hatch into a blowfly which carries a disease to a new host.) Is a Slaaneshi worshipper any less martial because they're caught up in the thrill of battle rather than the act of it? Is a Khornate berzerker any less decadent when they revel in bloodshed, a bloodlust if you will, until they're blood drunk?

And yet they're all agents of corruption and chaos. The WH40k universe doesn't go by the DnD alignment system, or at best, a dark and dystopian version of it. Though I guess the Eldar gods are good aligned? Don't know anything about them, then again, according to dorsidwarf, most of them were killed long ago and the rest driven into hiding.

[nenjin]

I wouldn't ascribe goodness to the Eldar gods. They're closer to Greek gods IMO. They have their dramas, their emotions, their passions, their aspects, which can't be easily characterized as good or bad.

Also with the Chaos gods, it's not a question of DND alignments. It's closer to elemental alignments. Water isn't good or bad, it's just the opposite of fire. Morality is a human construct and is irrelevant when you're talking about the moving pieces of reality.

[wierd]

One little nitpick about apotheosis in WH40K...

Chaos gods are born from the warp, and from the psychic emanations of people, because those influence and comprise the very essence of what the warp "is".  This is fine and dandy.

However, things like the beacon, the influence of the golden throne, tech that involves psykers as active components, et-al are all seemingly ignored for narrative purposes.  Those things all have direct effects on the warp, and SHOULD have god-producing qualities in and of themselves.

Why are there no "ordered" gods produced from these structures in the warp?  Could not the vaunted Emperor incarnate as such a being, and make the chaos gods very very unhappy indeed? If he did, it would make much more sense for the imperium to worship him, as that worship would then DIRECTLY add to his power. 

But no.  Internal consistency on things like this dont seem to have much sway in 40k canon. (sigh)

[Kot]

One little nitpick about apotheosis in WH40K...

Chaos gods are born from the warp, and from the psychic emanations of people, because those influence and comprise the very essence of what the warp "is".  This is fine and dandy.

However, things like the beacon, the influence of the golden throne, tech that involves psykers as active components, et-al are all seemingly ignored for narrative purposes.  Those things all have direct effects on the warp, and SHOULD have god-producing qualities in and of themselves.

Why are there no "ordered" gods produced from these structures in the warp?  Could not the vaunted Emperor incarnate as such a being, and make the chaos gods very very unhappy indeed? If he did, it would make much more sense for the imperium to worship him, as that worship would then DIRECTLY add to his power. 

But no.  Internal consistency on things like this dont seem to have much sway in 40k canon. (sigh)

In short - people had sex before Slannesh and killed each other before Khorne. Existence of some psychic influences don't mean that there need to be an sentient being dedicated to said influence, unless it reaches a "critical mass" and a God is born, usually quite violently (see Birth of Slannesh). The fact there are warp influences that are more "orderly" but have not yet produced a Chaos God of Order doesn't mean such being is impossible, he has just not been created yet, and in fact, the "Emperor will become Chaos God of Order" is one theory that's even to some extent acknowledged in universe. There are many theories about it, and while this is no longer canon, WHFB had some Chaos Gods of Order in old lore.

[nenjin]

Maybe it's a statement about the fundamental nature of humanity. All aspects of our psyches manifest in the Warp, but it's a question of which ones are preeminent. Which parts of humanity drown out the others? I'm sure there are Warp deities of "order" but do they draw enough energy from the human psyche to override the gods of war, desire, despair and scheming?

I do kind of miss older GWS writings about the nature of Chaos and the Warp. There are great stories told of warp adventurers meeting all sorts of variety in the Warp. That was when GWS was still exploring the fantasy and the ideas behind it. Now it's been reduced down to demons and guys with spikes. Even though anything is possible in the Warp as its written, GWS only chooses to focus on the safe and familiar parts of it.

[wierd]

Here's my beef:

The canon asserts that "like kinds of emotional emanations" condense together, such that there are rivers of hate, flows of despair-- et al.

The thing is, if there is a unifying characteristic of the entire imperium of man, it is hope of the emperor's providence, and faith in his immortality.

The same rules that spawn chaos gods should therefore be actively congealing into a god-body comprised of those things, whether the emperor wants it or not.

[nenjin]

Here's my beef:

The canon asserts that "like kinds of emotional emanations" condense together, such that there are rivers of hate, flows of despair-- et al.

The thing is, if there is a unifying characteristic of the entire imperium of man, it is hope of the emperor's providence, and faith in his immortality.

The same rules that spawn chaos gods should therefore be actively congealing into a god-body comprised of those things, whether the emperor wants it or not.

What I can say? Humanity doesn't have the feels the Eldar do so they haven't awoken anything yet. There's also the argument that, while yes humanity is "unified" in its belief and faith in the God Emperor, the rest of the human experience in the Imperium (fear, despair, hatred apathy) outstrip its faith in the God Emperor.

The real answer though is probably that GWS isn't interested in creating a deity to do battle with the Chaos gods because they can't sell minis around it.

[wierd]

I think we can overrule the former, because if that were true, then chaos would have already won (handily).

That only leaves option two, which I alluded to cheekily as "Narrative Reasons".  AKA, Narrative Fiat, et al.

[Grim Portent]

Here's my beef:

The canon asserts that "like kinds of emotional emanations" condense together, such that there are rivers of hate, flows of despair-- et al.

The thing is, if there is a unifying characteristic of the entire imperium of man, it is hope of the emperor's providence, and faith in his immortality.

The same rules that spawn chaos gods should therefore be actively congealing into a god-body comprised of those things, whether the emperor wants it or not.

Most of the emotions associated with faith in the emperor are already associated with one of the chaos gods. Hope is Tzeentchian in nature since it's associated with the expectation of change, improvement and progress for example. What exactly is able to empower him specifically is very vague, but seeing as he's implied to be growing weaker it's probably just the souls he consumes for energy, he's still fundamentally mortal as are all humans who die.

As is the Emperor is a demi-god of sorts, shackled to the mortal world by the golden throne. There are various manifestations of his powers, such as the faith powers exhibited by the most pious Sororitas and Ecclesiarchy, some Astropaths can channel their powers in ways that are analogous to an Imperial version of the chaos god's powers and daemons cannot approach holy artefacts sanctified in the Emperor's name for example.

He's just not able to become an actual god, the chaos gods leech most of the Warp's energy into one of themselves, most other other energy just becomes part of the formless wastes between their domains, and their power to corrupt humanity far exceeds his power to prevent or redeem corruption.

[Rolan7]

Here's my beef:

The canon asserts that "like kinds of emotional emanations" condense together, such that there are rivers of hate, flows of despair-- et al.

The thing is, if there is a unifying characteristic of the entire imperium of man, it is hope of the emperor's providence, and faith in his immortality.

The same rules that spawn chaos gods should therefore be actively congealing into a god-body comprised of those things, whether the emperor wants it or not.

I think it's a common theory that such a being is/has congealed. It's just a bit different from the chaos gods... actually very similar to the Eldar gods.

The belief is that the Emperor is immortal, that he protects, and arguably that xenos are scum who cannot be trusted. All of that is true. The cause and effect is meaningless because "lol warp".

Aspects of his will are even summoned by the faithful like Khaine (or sorcerers calling daemons). Are the faithful actually summoning Him, or are they expressing psyker abilities in a unique way? I say there's no meaningful difference.

He is a God, but unfortunately one of his aspects is blind faith. That's opposite of what he was in life, yet that's irrelevant- it's the belief of the people which defines his divine aspects. If there is any consciousness remaining, I'd wager it'd rather not be immortal either (at least in this state).

[Trekkin]

The whole "The Emperor is/should be a Chaos God by now" school of thought is behind the God Incarnate idea of Thorianism, so it's not like it's definitely not happening. As for why it's not happening faster or more effacaciously, I think the answer could come down to the Ecclesiarchy. How many Imperial citizens have actual faith in the Emperor instead of a firm belief in toeing the line lest they be killed for heresy? How many feel hope for His providence instead of just fear of the local branch of the militant theocracy?

The vast majority of humanity, packed into hives and largely neglected, feels very little other than hunger, greed, fear, despair and hatred. As Grim Portent pointed out, there are already Chaos Gods for those.

[wierd]

While true, I would counter that there is an imbalance in the potency of energy sources involved here.

The emperor binds licensed psykers to himself in much the same way that chaos gods bind demons.  He can "eat" them at will. (and eats many of them daily to sustain himself.)  He is able to tap enough raw energy to fire a beam of coherent immaterium all the way out into intergalactic space.

The chaos gods are able to sustain the eye of chaos.

A good portion of the psykers that are bound to him in this fashion are bound willingly. (probably because they have seen what happens to unbound psykers when hungry warp polyps take notice of them, and the idea is fucking scary as hell.)  Fear of the warp, and faith in the protection of the emperor, are two sides of the same coin.  One produces and sustains the other.

[GiglameshDespair]

Well, the Big E does arguably have his own daemons in the form of the Legion of the Damned, though GW can't quite decide whether that's true or not.

[Grim Portent]

While true, I would counter that there is an imbalance in the potency of energy sources involved here.

The emperor binds licensed psykers to himself in much the same way that chaos gods bind demons.  He can "eat" them at will. (and eats many of them daily to sustain himself.)  He is able to tap enough raw energy to fire a beam of coherent immaterium all the way out into intergalactic space.

The chaos gods are able to sustain the eye of chaos.

A good portion of the psykers that are bound to him in this fashion are bound willingly. (probably because they have seen what happens to unbound psykers when hungry warp polyps take notice of them, and the idea is fucking scary as hell.)  Fear of the warp, and faith in the protection of the emperor, are two sides of the same coin.  One produces and sustains the other.

The gods do not sustain the Eye of Terror, it is self sustaining drawing from the near infinite energies* of the Warp not controlled by the Gods.

The Emperor also cannot consume sanctioned psykers at will and is only soul bound to Astropaths, which he also cannot consume at will. He is fed the dregs of the psyker tithe through a mechanism in the bowels of the Golden Throne that consumes their souls and uses it to feed him and power the Astronomicon. Without the Throne he can't consume any souls at all and would probably just die instantly.

The Astronomicon is something he's sustained since before being worshipped, it's just a giant beacon of undirected psychic energy radiating from Terra. Without the Astropathic Choir that directs and focuses it for him it'd have substantially less range and it's gradually getting weaker as the Golden Throne slowly breaks down anyway.

He's not being powered by worship, he can just manifest some blessings upon and through the faithful, he's powered by shoveling low grade psykers into a metaphysical furnace like coal into a steam engine in the thousands per day, and because he's still dying it's getting harder and harder to keep him going. He can't even communicate with people who aren't in the throne room and able to physically see him.


*All warp entities have theoretically infinite energy at all times because time is weird in the Warp as is space, but it's never directed in any given place and doing so would probably invite bad stuff for whoever tried to do it, chaos god or otherwise.

[wierd]

The point being, He could be retaining even just a sliver of that energy for himself.  Astropaths and bound psykers are a stronger source of fuel than ordinary people and their emotions.  Psykers are not allowed to persist on any of the colonies. (they are rounded up and hauled off to Terra en-mass. The incidents where this has NOT happened, have resulted in lost colonies due to polyp invasions)

The same notions that energy density in the void is universally unlimited only adds to the notion that the belief in the emperor and his providence is astoundingly pervasive; The iconography on dreadnaughts alone is sufficient to produce gellar fields. (Meaning that faith alone is strong enough to push back the whole of the immaterium)

Last I looked into it, the astropaths that focus the astronomicon fervently bind their willpower to the service of the emperor, and not exactly toward the sustenance of the astronomicon itself. They just reinforce the will of the emperor, and that will is to project the beam.  Should the emperor decide that he also does not want to die, and instead apotheos, no change in their regimen is required, and would instead manifest as a dip in the power of the beam.


There's also the issue of how Big E came to exist in the first place:  The canon storyline involves a cabaal of shamanic leaders willingly terminating themselves, and redirecting all of their energies into reincarnation of a single birth; the result of which was Big E.

We have overwhelmingly more energy being pumped into Big E each day than was used to spawn him.  It should be painlessly trivial for Big E to reincarnate himself.  Why is he choosing to die?