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Author Topic: WH40K discussion thread: from Tyran's heart I stab at thee.  (Read 965262 times)

pisskop

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Re: WH40K discussion thread: TTS is dead: so long, and thanks for all the bolters.
« Reply #12120 on: November 10, 2022, 07:07:05 am »

One cannot judge the amount of carnage they have sewn unless they have a clean starting point.
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Egan_BW

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Re: WH40K discussion thread: TTS is dead: so long, and thanks for all the bolters.
« Reply #12121 on: November 10, 2022, 02:37:33 pm »

One cannot judge the amount of carnage they have sewn unless they have a clean starting point.
You slanneshi! The point isn't to judge your carnage, it's to DO CARNAGE! :D
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Rolan7

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Re: WH40K discussion thread: TTS is dead: so long, and thanks for all the bolters.
« Reply #12122 on: November 10, 2022, 04:13:53 pm »

Khorne cares not where the blood flows from... or on!
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Re: WH40K discussion thread: TTS is dead: so long, and thanks for all the bolters.
« Reply #12123 on: November 11, 2022, 03:15:04 pm »

Recent traitors would also be lacking in them.

All that trim and mutant parts take time to appear after all, so traitor primaris in particular would still look pretty clean given how little time they've existed for in setting.

I haven't really been keeping up with things, but weren't the Adeptus Restartes supposed to be immune to Chaos somehow?

Not that I believed that Games Workshop would resist the temptation to sell Chaos Primaris, but you know.
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Grim Portent

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Re: WH40K discussion thread: TTS is dead: so long, and thanks for all the bolters.
« Reply #12124 on: November 11, 2022, 04:54:31 pm »

Recent traitors would also be lacking in them.

All that trim and mutant parts take time to appear after all, so traitor primaris in particular would still look pretty clean given how little time they've existed for in setting.

I haven't really been keeping up with things, but weren't the Adeptus Restartes supposed to be immune to Chaos somehow?

Not that I believed that Games Workshop would resist the temptation to sell Chaos Primaris, but you know.

The sales pitch given to the Imperium was that they had been cleansed of their genetic flaws and indoctrinated to a higher quality than normal. The space marines as they were originally meant to be before the gene flaws, primarch cultures and cults set in; controllable cookie-cutter super soldiers.

This turned out to be false, the gene flaws just didn't show up in early testing and manifested later on, as did their possession of self determination. Blood Angels primaris still go all psychotic vampire, dark angels are paranoid and guilt ridden and so on. If wolf primaris can go full werewolf is unknown to me, but it will probably happen the next time they decide to do a big Space Wolf release.

The first generation were less prone to the issues as I understand, they started to crop up after they had been exposed to their actual chapters or in new primaris made later. The original primaris were... weird. Detached from the culture and history of their genetic lineages, devoid of spirituality. They were made from humans shortly after the Heresy and maintained the ideals the Imperium had long since moved on from. When they actually got boots on the ground and started to be part of their chapter's they started to blend into them. Lots of chapters were hesitant to accept them, or to give them any authority, but eventually came around when it turned out the primaris were just as much of a mess in the head as any other marine.


I only know of one group that turned traitor in canon so far, and they didn't have time to fall to chaos so chaos primaris are still an uncomfirmed thing. Specifically the Brazen Drakes. The chapter fell to chaos while waiting for their primaris contingent to arrive due to a surge in spontaneous pskers among their ranks after the Great Rift opened. When the reinforcements arrived and the chapter's fall was made known the Custodes escorting the primaris reinforcements decided that the genetic line of the Drakes was tainted and tried to execute the primaris, who fought back. During this the firstborn traitors managed to flee from their homeworld to take refuge in the warp, and the last of the primaris were captured and executed and all the gene stock they had was destroyed.
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nenjin

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Re: WH40K discussion thread: TTS is dead: so long, and thanks for all the bolters.
« Reply #12125 on: November 11, 2022, 05:20:47 pm »

Wait, they retconned primaris all the way back to the Heresy?

....kay.

Not that I've done any reading on primaris, but the simple fact every Chapter and/or Legion had its own methodology for actually making humans into Space Marines makes me kind of incredulous that, from a scientific perspective, anyone would be replicatable results between different chapters.
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Re: WH40K discussion thread: TTS is dead: so long, and thanks for all the bolters.
« Reply #12126 on: November 11, 2022, 06:05:46 pm »

Wait, they retconned primaris all the way back to the Heresy?

....kay.

Not that I've done any reading on primaris, but the simple fact every Chapter and/or Legion had its own methodology for actually making humans into Space Marines makes me kind of incredulous that, from a scientific perspective, anyone would be replicatable results between different chapters.

The introduction fluff for the primaris, from the very start, was that they were started after the Heresy by Cawl on Guilliman's orders.

Basically Guilliman saw the events of the Heresy and the failings of his and his brother's sons, and as the regent after the Emperor was interred on the Golden Throne took his father's research notes from his lab and decided he couldn't do anything with it. So he grabs a somewhat deviant member of the newly formed Adeptus Mechanicus (as opposed to the pre-Heresy Mechanicum) and gives him the notes and tells him to make things better. This would be Cawl.

Cawl gets a bunch of existing marines, geneseed from all the Legions and humans to use as lab rats, tinkers for a while and manages to implement some features the Emperor had conceived of but never bothered to use, because for the Emperor the marines were good enough and he had a schedule to keep. Guilliman is mortally wounded by Fulgrim before Cawl can show him his work, so he just freezes all his creations and does other stuff, occasionally tinkering with them a little. No one except Guilliman actually has the authority to know Cawl was doing this, or to give the order to actually deploy the Primaris and the various divergent technologies created for their use, so Cawl doesn't tell anyone or use them. Not like he cares about all the people dying in the meanwhile, he might not even have an organic brain anymore.

Belisarius Cawl is something of a Heretek, he's unorthodox, defiant of convention and dogma, and ambitious. Not unusual for a member of the Mechanicum, but publicly frowned upon by the Mechanicus. He took on the project with the goal of using it to get Guilliman to make him the Fabricator General, an ambition he has held onto for something like 9000 years. Normally this lifespan would be impossible even for tech priests, but Cawl has done some outright heretekal things to prolong his life, and even made true AI copies of himself so he can be in several places at once. Too powerful for the Mechanicus to kill for his transgressions, but still enough of a renegade that they refuse to give him the higher ranks he thinks he should have.

Cawl sits on the project until Guilliman is brought back, with a combination of advanced life support and Eldar soul magic. With Guilliman back Cawl can now give him the army that was finished 9000 years prior and mothballed for political reasons. Guilliman takes this army and starts running around trying to reinforce all the beleaguered parts of the Imperium, splitting off bits to make new chapters or reinforce existing ones. Cawl asks Guilliman to make him Fabricator General, Guilliman considers the idea insane because the Mechanicus would never accept it and thinks it's stupid of Cawl to even ask.


TL;DR the events around the primaris reveal established that a Magos named Cawl had been given carte blanche to create an army of slightly improved marines during the Scouring, immediately after the Heresy, by Roboute Guilliman. He succeeded in implementing features the Emperor had planned but decided weren't important at the time and began mass producing his new primaris marines. Since the guy who asked him to do this was basically dead, Cawl just froze them all until such a time as they would be politically useful for him. When Guilliman was revived he got in touch with Cawl to find out what happened to the project, and was more than a little pissed off it had been mothballed rather than used.


Important context is that the Emperor didn't even want the space marines in the first place, all he wanted was his primarchs, the custodes and normal humans/abhumans. When the primarchs got yoinked he made the space marines from the scraps left over from that project, and while the result was more stable than their thunder warrior predecessors they were also kind of janky and inferior, a trade off for being relatively easy to produce. The space marines were a mediocre project pushed out on a rushed schedule to replace the primarchs.

That there have been efforts to improve on them is nothing new, the new thing is that the primaris aren't riddled with flaws like most other attempts to improve on the marines have been. A common thread in the Cursed Founding was the Mechanicus trying to fix flaws in the gene seed used, and it wasn't the only time they tried.
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nenjin

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Re: WH40K discussion thread: TTS is dead: so long, and thanks for all the bolters.
« Reply #12127 on: November 11, 2022, 07:04:26 pm »

I thought Guillman just started the project after they woke him up. Guess I haven't read that far into the HH novels to find out if that made it into them.

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When the primarchs got yoinked he made the space marines from the scraps left over from that project, and while the result was more stable than their thunder warrior predecessors they were also kind of janky and inferior, a trade off for being relatively easy to produce. The space marines were a mediocre project pushed out on a rushed schedule to replace the primarchs.

Not that 40k contradicting itself is unusual but this does fly in the face of most established canon as far as I'm aware. The Primarchs were made as generals (a couple other applications withstanding), for soldiers that needed to go above and beyond what a human was capable of. Primarchs leading human soldiers that couldn't even remotely keep up with them doesn't seem like a real gameplan. Also the lore of Thunder Warriors directly contradicts the idea too.

But what can I honestly say. GWS can write whatever revisions they want. If Space Marines were a last minute plan, I guess they're now a last minute plan so Guillman could say they sucked as an excuse to sell more minis.
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pisskop

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Re: WH40K discussion thread: TTS is dead: so long, and thanks for all the bolters.
« Reply #12128 on: November 11, 2022, 07:07:45 pm »

Well my impression were that the space marine were always meant to be the rank and file.  Obviously the primaris didnt exist before they were invented by GWS, but the jump from 'made in the image of the primarchs after they were stolen by coincidence' and ' made from scraps' isnt all that large.  the part i dislike, as somebody who wants good lore, is that they need more perfect soldiers.  the power creep is annoying.
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nenjin

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Re: WH40K discussion thread: TTS is dead: so long, and thanks for all the bolters.
« Reply #12129 on: November 11, 2022, 07:19:14 pm »

It's a needless, from a lore perspective, escalation. And I feel like it devalues the heritage of regular space marines while still trying to loan it to a new idea.

And I mean clearly, GWS realizes that narratively, foibles are what set SMs apart from each other. Perfecting those differences out of the gene pool makes for boring protagonists, something SMs already suffer from.

Sorry, I'll stop crapping on primaris. Thanks for the lore dump.
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Grim Portent

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Re: WH40K discussion thread: TTS is dead: so long, and thanks for all the bolters.
« Reply #12130 on: November 11, 2022, 07:58:55 pm »

I think Cawl makes an appearance in the Heresy novels, but he's just a tech-acolyte at the time rather than a master Biologis.

The timeframe of the beginning of the Primaris Project was after the 2nd Founding, which is after the HH novels stop, so the project itself isn't in it. Cawl got shuffled some marines and resources that would otherwise have been used to make chapters out of the loyalist legions when the legions were split.


The main purpose of the primaris was to give GW an excuse to make marines with better proportions. The traditional versions proportions in miniatures have rightfully been mocked for a long time, but changing it without an explanation just results in people complaining anyway, so might as well go all out and tie it into a big shakeup of the status quo.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2022, 08:01:25 pm by Grim Portent »
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Re: WH40K discussion thread: TTS is dead: so long, and thanks for all the bolters.
« Reply #12131 on: November 14, 2022, 10:59:18 am »

Primaris were so unnecessarily fisted into the setting. They could've just started selling "Truescale Marines"TM instead of saying "oh yeah btw there were extra legions of untainted upgraded space marines chilling around for 10,000 years, also space marines can be upgraded to Primaris as well." All the interesting things they could do with interservice rivalry, tech heresy, more manpower, they don't just skip right past it all and say "nah it's cool they've always been there just no one was looking."

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Re: WH40K discussion thread: TTS is dead: so long, and thanks for all the bolters.
« Reply #12132 on: November 14, 2022, 01:06:44 pm »

I don't think I've ever heard anyone like primaris honestly. It's just so badly implemented and lame. They're spacier space marines! As if the setting and especially the imperium didn't already have the issue of ever escalating elitier elite units even more badass and amazing than the last! Buy now! Just, ugh.

I might not like everything about the new squats, erm, 'leagues of Votann' but at least it's fresh and with potential and still let's them sell new overpriced plastic armymen.
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Re: WH40K discussion thread: TTS is dead: so long, and thanks for all the bolters.
« Reply #12133 on: November 15, 2022, 10:00:13 am »

They're spacier space marines!

They're kinda not though?  They lack alot of the tactical flexibility normal space marines have, if anything they're more like eldar aspect warriors than marines.  Whole squads that get one gun and do one thing.  Also what kind of space marine can't use a drop pod.

Also having half your chapter use entirely unique guns, vehicles and armor must be hell for the chapter quartermaster...
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Re: WH40K discussion thread: TTS is dead: so long, and thanks for all the bolters.
« Reply #12134 on: November 18, 2022, 12:25:12 am »

Yeah, Primaris suck.
But hey, GW needed to do something to revitalize their line and print more money. I'm not terribly opposed to all the new lore that got created due to the Primaris. And since I'm never spending one cent on any GW figurine, I guess I can't complain too much.
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