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I am religious and believe in free will

70 (27.6%)

I am religious and do not believe in free will

10 (3.9%)

I am not religious and believe in free will

113 (44.5%)

I am not religious and do not believe in free will

61 (24%)

Total Members Voted: 249

[nullBolt]

No matter how you look at it, there is undoubtedly no free will. We are biological automatons with all our functionality pre-programmed. I don't make a choice so much as my past makes the choice for me.

[Grimlocke]

Brains take external stimuli, process them, apply their memories, emotions, bias (lots of those), sometimes logic like causality and prediction, and produce their 'will', as in something they will want to do under said circumstances.

Different people will make radically different decisions under the same circumstances, external stimuli are just one of many ingredients that go into human (or other animal) decision making.

Basically what I'm trying to say is, the brain is where the free will is at. Arguing that it's not because there is no external force making decisions for it... doesn't make much sense to me. Wouldn't that kind of force impede the whole 'free' part of will?

Arguing that free will is unwilling because if you rewind time the exact same choice gets made, to me just means that clearly the person does have a will since they didn't just do something random.

This does illustrate

[TD1]

No matter how you look at it, there is undoubtedly no free will. We are biological automatons with all our functionality pre-programmed. I don't make a choice so much as my past makes the choice for me.

And the first time you made a choice?

[nullBolt]

Brains take external stimuli, process them, apply their memories, emotions, bias (lots of those), sometimes logic like causality and prediction, and produce their 'will', as in something they will want to do under said circumstances.

Different people will make radically different decisions under the same circumstances, external stimuli are just one of many ingredients that go into human (or other animal) decision making.

Basically what I'm trying to say is, the brain is where the free will is at. Arguing that it's not because there is no external force making decisions for it... doesn't make much sense to me. Wouldn't that kind of force impede the whole 'free' part of will?

Arguing that free will is unwilling because if you rewind time the exact same choice gets made, to me just means that clearly the person does have a will since they didn't just do something random.

This does illustrate

That's literally against the concept of free will.

No matter how you look at it, there is undoubtedly no free will. We are biological automatons with all our functionality pre-programmed. I don't make a choice so much as my past makes the choice for me.

And the first time you made a choice?

Biological functions up to that point what compelled me to do it.

[Grimlocke]

Brains take external stimuli, process them, apply their memories, emotions, bias (lots of those), sometimes logic like causality and prediction, and produce their 'will', as in something they will want to do under said circumstances.

Different people will make radically different decisions under the same circumstances, external stimuli are just one of many ingredients that go into human (or other animal) decision making.

Basically what I'm trying to say is, the brain is where the free will is at. Arguing that it's not because there is no external force making decisions for it... doesn't make much sense to me. Wouldn't that kind of force impede the whole 'free' part of will?

Arguing that free will is unwilling because if you rewind time the exact same choice gets made, to me just means that clearly the person does have a will since they didn't just do something random.

This does illustrate

That's literally against the concept of free will.

No matter how you look at it, there is undoubtedly no free will. We are biological automatons with all our functionality pre-programmed. I don't make a choice so much as my past makes the choice for me.

And the first time you made a choice?

Biological functions up to that point what compelled me to do it.

I think what your not quite realizing is that that squishy lump of grey matter is your entire person. Without it, nothing you are exists. Just because its neurological processes (as opposed to what else exactly?), doesn't mean it cannot do free thinking, free decision making and indeed, has free will.

Of course if you set up your concept of free will specifically so that it can only be some magical outside force then yeah of course, magic doesn't exist. I'm not sure what your really trying to prove by redefining the question to fit your answer though.

[Antioch]

Not having free will does not degrade my person. That is again a wrong conclusion if you accept there is no free will.


My brain is made of matter that obeys the laws of physics. Apart from some weird quantum mechanics and other phenomena like the uncertainty principle matter behaves deterministic.


Why would accepting this degrade us?

[Loud Whispers]

Not having free will does not degrade my person. That is again a wrong conclusion if you accept there is no free will.
My brain is made of matter that obeys the laws of physics. Apart from some weird quantum mechanics and other phenomena like the uncertainty principle matter behaves deterministic.
Why would accepting this degrade us?

Cos you're just a drone to be programmed lol, no choice 4u

[nullBolt]

I think what your not quite realizing is that that squishy lump of grey matter is your entire person. Without it, nothing you are exists. Just because its neurological processes (as opposed to what else exactly?), doesn't mean it cannot do free thinking, free decision making and indeed, has free will.

Of course if you set up your concept of free will specifically so that it can only be some magical outside force then yeah of course, magic doesn't exist. I'm not sure what your really trying to prove by redefining the question to fit your answer though.

Of course it does. If I replay my life a thousand times and each time the result is the same, that is not freedom of choice. I have no choice since my path is determined solely by outside stimuli.

If you can know me wholly as a person and then be able to predict every choice I make, then that is not freedom of choice as my path is already determined.

[Antioch]

Not having free will does not degrade my person. That is again a wrong conclusion if you accept there is no free will.
My brain is made of matter that obeys the laws of physics. Apart from some weird quantum mechanics and other phenomena like the uncertainty principle matter behaves deterministic.
Why would accepting this degrade us?

Cos you're just a drone to be programmed lol, no choice 4u

Once again the wrong conclusion that accepting our thoughts obey the laws of physics somehow makes us drones. That our actions are deterministic does not make them meaningless. Our subjective reality is very much real and is as meaningful as you make it to be.

But yes someone CAN stick some electrodes in your head and make you feel/do whatever the fuck he wants.

[Egan_BW]

I think what your not quite realizing is that that squishy lump of grey matter is your entire person. Without it, nothing you are exists. Just because its neurological processes (as opposed to what else exactly?), doesn't mean it cannot do free thinking, free decision making and indeed, has free will.

Of course if you set up your concept of free will specifically so that it can only be some magical outside force then yeah of course, magic doesn't exist. I'm not sure what your really trying to prove by redefining the question to fit your answer though.

Of course it does. If I replay my life a thousand times and each time the result is the same, that is not freedom of choice. I have no choice since my path is determined solely by outside stimuli.

If you can know me wholly as a person and then be able to predict every choice I make, then that is not freedom of choice as my path is already determined.

So you would prefer, instead of being deterministic, that your actions were determined by RNG? Or is there a third option?

[TD1]

Nullbolt, your argument seems to see any decision you make as clear cut. If such and such happens, then such and such is definitely going to happen.

That's not the way the world tends to work. Think of a choice that is ultimately meaningless. You stand in the middle of a bare room, and there are two exits, both identical. It's 50/50 which one you choose - you could, really, choose either. If you replayed your life a thousand times, I have no doubt that you'd pick both exits at one time or another.

[nullBolt]

So you would prefer, instead of being deterministic, that your actions were determined by RNG? Or is there a third option?

It's either or, really. But the reality of it is that we are fundamentally just very complex robots. Our rules are laid out for us.

Nullbolt, your argument seems to see any decision you make as clear cut. If such and such happens, then such and such is definitely going to happen.

That's not the way the world tends to work. Think of a choice that is ultimately meaningless. You stand in the middle of a bare room, and there are two exits, both identical. It's 50/50 which one you choose - you could, really, choose either. If you replayed your life a thousand times, I have no doubt that you'd pick both exits at one time or another.

Are you sure about that? Maybe I'd always pick the right entrance simply because it resonates with me in some way. Maybe I'd pick it because I'm right handed, who knows?

But if you erased my memory every time I'm sure I'd pick the same one every time.

[TD1]

And the brick balanced on the top of a pole always falls the same way, no matter how many times it's replaced on its perch in the same place?

In nature, if there's a 50/50 chance, then both may happen. What makes you think you're different? What ability does being clothed in flesh and being sentient give you to transcend the material?

[Egan_BW]

If all factors are the same, the brick will.always fall the same way. However, in practice, factors are almost never the exact same.

[Antioch]

And the brick balanced on the top of a pole always falls the same way, no matter how many times it's replaced on its perch in the same place?

In nature, if there's a 50/50 chance, then both may happen. What makes you think you're different? What ability does being clothed in flesh and being sentient give you to transcend the material?

Do you think matter suddenly obeys different laws when something is repeated?

Either the experiment set up is the same or it is different there is no "almost the same".