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I am religious and believe in free will

70 (27.6%)

I am religious and do not believe in free will

10 (3.9%)

I am not religious and believe in free will

113 (44.5%)

I am not religious and do not believe in free will

61 (24%)

Total Members Voted: 249

[Frumple]

Except it's clearly not when you're already assuming the (at least general) validity of things like the bible. It's just got the standard issues of reporting involved with anything that concerns the afterlife and whatnot.

[Orange Wizard]

There are cases where it's invalid. This isn't one of them. This is a pretty clear "things are exactly the same regardless of the existence of this added feature, so it's best to assume this added feature doesn't exist" application of occam's razor.

That's not how religion works

[TempAcc]

How exactly does one phenomena completely preclude the other, though? There's phenomena that support a wide variety of theories on the subject. Just like we can say there's no fundamental support for personality apart from the brain's physical and chemical structure, because there are personality changes when said structure is altered, others say that the brain transmits stimuli in two ways, both from the soul and from the outside, and when its structure is altered, it may then become unable to interpret certain stimuli from either side, while not affecting the soul, kinda like Frumple said. None of the current methods and technology available can fully prove either hypothesis, so believing things are one way or another until then, is essentialy a matter of belief :v

Except a lot of people seem willing to take belief as fact, not unlike certain religious fundamentalists. Two sides of the same coin, one intentionaly interpreting available incomplete evidence as absolute, other disregarding available evidence altogheder, but not fully proven wrong either, and in the end we have Stephen Fry trying to fistfight the ghost of Martin Luther, while I'm throwing popcorn at them.

What I'm saying is, we need to keep trying to learn more things while keeping our minds open to all possibilities, so we don't end up throwing away certain hypothesis away simply because it doesnt fit exactly into what little we know.

And, as we've seen time and time again, Occam's Razor is about as infallible as plastic surgery on Michael Jackson.
FAKEEDIT: ninjas

[smirk]

But that's about the point where you can believe literally anything. If the universe looks exactly the same regardless...

Aww, c'mon. Are you saying you don't like P-zombies?

Also, seconding OW. In a sense, religion is believing literally anything.

[Calidovi]

There's such a great standing behind the concept of the soul that it's no longer a factor in making an option more complex. It's too ingrained within people's minds for analyses concerning such things to be handled objectively by said people.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I realize that this can easily be a given, but I had a hard time phrasing it so I'm not throwing it away.

[Putnam]

I believe there's a little extradimensional goblin that keeps my heart beating. Obviously it can't keep doing it if the heart's damaged. The chemistry in cardiac cells that has them beat also matters, because if that stops the goblin can't keep it beating; all that chemistry is just a receiver for the goblin beats.

It's basically philosophical zombie bull.

But that's about the point where you can believe literally anything. If the universe looks exactly the same regardless...

Aww, c'mon. Are you saying you don't like P-zombies?

Also, seconding OW. In a sense, religion is believing literally anything.

i wrote my complaint above before reading this post, for posterity

[Rolepgeek]

That was before we got hard evidence that one's entire person is stored in the brain (which the Greek philosophers naturally thought was an organ for cooling the blood), though.

That is also incorrect. Feedback mechanisms in other parts of the body are very much a part of you and your personality, as is, I would personally argue, much of your physical self, particularly the spinal cord. People can go insane from having their gut bacteria being wonky. The brain is not the self. And besides that, you could quote easily see the soul as an animating force, or a manifestation of the physical aspects of mind and soul, if you're spiritually inclined. Proof that the brain is the primary determinant of personality is not the same as prior against a soul.

Also, what advice do we give people who are hot-blooded, rash, and angry all the time? Use your head.

Also, science today has metric shittons of problems with replication and non-bias, as even something as simple as what beliefs you had prior to the experiment can fuck up your results, even if both of you used the exact same procedure and continually checked in with another researcher with an opposing viewpoint. So it's really not that hard to think Occam's Razor might be wrong here. Sometimes it is.

Also, brain is just a little bit less understood than the heart. Just a little. Also only a little bit more complex.

[Egan_BW]

Soul is the thing that my brain does.
If my brain is damaged, it can no longer soul properly.
If my brain is disassembled , it can no longer soul at all.
If my brain were then reassembled, it would presumably then be able to soul again.
The mechanism by which my brain souls is not fully understood, but this will likely.change in the future.

Are those some acceptable definitions?

[Frumple]

Soul is the thing that my brain does.
If my brain is damaged, it can no longer soul properly.
If my brain is disassembled , it can no longer soul at all.
If my brain were then reassembled, it would presumably then be able to soul again.
The mechanism by which my brain souls is not fully understood, but this will likely.change in the future.

Are those some acceptable definitions?

Not really? Souly bits are clearly not all the brain hypothetically does, nor does brain damage necessarily entail souly malfunctions. It's pretty easy (well, relatively speaking) to take a hard knock to the noggin' and just no longer be able to not piss yourself, ferex, no personality changes (save the entirely expected ones, that have nothing to do explicitly with the damage itself, caused by regularly soiling yourself) involved.

It'd be more like,
Soul may be a thing that my brain does.
If my brain is damaged, it's possible it will no longer soul properly.
Rest as previously, except that annoying period between likely and change is purged in fire and bloodshed and your family cursed unto the tenth generation for your sin. Gotta' keep dat shit holy text appropriate.

[Egan_BW]

Heh, phone keyboards are hard.

Well, I feel like it's easier to just say that the ability to pee is a part of your soul, just one that you don't care about much, than to try to find a nice line between personality and not personality. We're already fudging it a bit by just talking about the brain, and not the whole nervous system, and all the inputs to the nervous system, and all of our environmental factors on out behavior, and all the factors on those factors, and generally the universe as a whole.

[Loud Whispers]

Mother Teresa tried to brainwash Hindus to become Christians and fuelled a violent Indian insurgency, claim BJP leaders


uh oh, hindi breeki

[TD1]

I think it's fairly likely that MT was trying to convert as many people as possible while she was there.

Hardly seems like news.

[TempAcc]

MT was a sister of battle, you should be glad she didn't just set on fire.

Seriously tho, I'd be ok if someone tried really hard to convert me into noodle worship/chaos magic/subgenius/scientology after saving my life or somesuch. I'd just be like LOL SURE then run away, but run away thankfuly :v

[Descan]

Mother Theresa was an asshole.

[Tomasque]

 *Shady look*

 Religious questions thread