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What's your opinion on free will?

I am religious and believe in free will
- 70 (27.6%)
I am religious and do not believe in free will
- 10 (3.9%)
I am not religious and believe in free will
- 113 (44.5%)
I am not religious and do not believe in free will
- 61 (24%)

Total Members Voted: 249


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Author Topic: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion  (Read 580342 times)

MaxTheFox

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #7335 on: June 14, 2023, 09:31:58 pm »

Yeah also I don't want to destroy radical atheism.
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Rolan7

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #7336 on: June 14, 2023, 10:27:40 pm »

Hm.  I don't want to destroy Christianity, I just have concerns-
oh gods I sound like a TERF
abort! abort!
Let's all continue to tolerate each other :)
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She/they
No justice: no peace.
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This one didn't want to be who they was. On the Surface – it was a dull, unconsidered sadness. But everything changed. Which implied everything could change.

Strongpoint

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #7337 on: June 15, 2023, 12:40:00 am »

Quote
Everyone has beliefs now that they didn't have as a child.  How did they develop?  Usually observation of the world around oneself, hypothesizing, testing those hypotheses, and refining them based on the results.  Communication with others is also a big factor, as it gives us other perspectives and views to consider.

I know, but it is not what MaxTheFox described. "When I decided I didn't want to be an atheist anymore (very personal reasons)" Max said. It is a very different thing. She made a decision to change her beliefs and did so. I fail to understand how it works.


If you would ask a theist me, a person that existed not so long ago, why I believe my answer would be - "I personally feel divine presence during prayer. I know God (later, in my transitioning phase, - an egregor) is there and it is your problem that you are spiritually blind."

And I didn't choose to stop believing. I just got more and more evidence that that feeling was nothing but a creation of my own mind and has no supernatural causes. Not only I didn't choose it, I resisted.
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McTraveller

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #7338 on: June 15, 2023, 07:56:42 am »

Raises an interesting question: How you "feel" about something, shouldn't really influence what you believe, though, should it?  There are many things I believe but I don't like.  Faith is deeper than sentiment, isn't it?

Is this a unique... heh... belief?
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TD1

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #7339 on: June 15, 2023, 08:02:37 am »

Faith is meant to be separate from sentiment, but in practice isn't.

The only reason for belief to exist is sentiment - hope, fear, loneliness.

Answering these sentiments, people (and probably some animals) call on something beyond and distant from themselves. It is meant to be non-empirical yet present.

But in reality, the face and character of the divine is never fixed. Never even slightly empirical. Always founded in sentiment.
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Rolan7

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #7340 on: June 15, 2023, 09:26:52 am »

Raises an interesting question: How you "feel" about something, shouldn't really influence what you believe, though, should it?  There are many things I believe but I don't like.  Faith is deeper than sentiment, isn't it?

Is this a unique... heh... belief?
Sounds Calvinist I think.  "Life isn't fair.  Most people are predestined to go to Hell.  The best we can do is accept that reality"
It's a nightmare, but I've always had an odd respect for it.  I've often expressed my suspicion of religion that seems to "update" itself based on modern cultural morals.  That's one thing if a religion was founded from the start with a principle of discovering and adapting to hidden truths...  But most mainstream religions seem to promise certainty and an unchanging foundation, then change anyway to survive.

That's a tricky subject because I *want* religions to adapt to progressive values so people don't have to be bigots.  That's a good thing.  It just doesn't inspire confidence in the religion's timelessness.  Yet even some variants of Christianity do seem to value adaptation and discovery, so I can get behind them.  (Oh right I need to check out the Universalists nearby, I bet they're running events this month!!)

I'd also like to clarify something from my monologue: Christianity wasn't the reason I felt broken and wrong.  At least, I didn't think so at the time- Nowadays I blame homophobia on patriarchy, which I blame on the dominance of Abrahamic religion, etc etc whatever.  I was aware of homophobic preachers, especially in politics, but that wasn't the kind of church I was trying to join.  Nobody in that group was judging me for being girly or badmouthing gays around me.

No, that internalized homophobia came from secular public school... blame where it's due.
And what I wanted from church, from a personal relationship with Jesus, was to have something to live for.  I didn't like myself, and I couldn't live for a family that was falling apart, so "Okay I'll dedicate myself to a higher power".  Maybe that would involve continuing to repress myself like I had been, and that was okay.  Maybe it wouldn't require that!  I was ready to find out.

When my prayer "was rejected", yeah, I kinda felt like maybe I was too trash.  Or just too different.  This worked for so many people, especially desperate ones.  Even if it was just a social phenomenon, why wasn't it working for me??  I *thought* differently from other people and I was so tired of working around that, trying to act normal (masking).  It certainly wasn't a point of pride.  It was exhausting, and it was keeping me from this almost universal source of comfort and community.

...
I'm glad nobody suggested that being rejected was part of God's greater plan for me.  I know it's possible, and I don't mind you thinking it, but it would have hurt to hear you say it.  I still try to contextualize my life in that way sometimes, just to check.  I don't see it yet.  I feel like my lack of faith led me to some unhealthy behaviors, and I can't even say "at least I survived" because I don't feel like all of me did.  But I am glad I'm alive, and finally being myself, now.
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She/they
No justice: no peace.
Quote from: Fallen London, one Unthinkable Hope
This one didn't want to be who they was. On the Surface – it was a dull, unconsidered sadness. But everything changed. Which implied everything could change.

Strongpoint

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #7341 on: June 15, 2023, 11:07:01 am »

Raises an interesting question: How you "feel" about something, shouldn't really influence what you believe, though, should it?  There are many things I believe but I don't like.  Faith is deeper than sentiment, isn't it?

Is this a unique... heh... belief?

It shouldn't but it does. I don't like the that I am mortal. I don't like that people who I love are also mortal. This is why it was extremely hard for me to accept that there is not enough evidence to believe in some kind of soul or afterlife. It isn't even likely. At best, it is possible (and then it likely has nothing in common with man-made mythology)
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Egan_BW

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #7342 on: June 15, 2023, 06:55:45 pm »

I don't get it. Death is one of the most comforting things there is. Would you really rather be the playtoy of something greater than you, a thinking force you can never really understand, which doesn't let you die?
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MaxTheFox

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #7343 on: June 15, 2023, 10:20:00 pm »

I don't get it. Death is one of the most comforting things there is. Would you really rather be the playtoy of something greater than you, a thinking force you can never really understand, which doesn't let you die?
The concept of experiences ending forever is too horrifying for me. So yes I would, not letting me die is a favor. I value the continuation of experiences over some hypothetical freedom for myself to die.

Considering my faith is not absolute and I am not 100% sure I will definitely take any life-extension treatments I can afford when they become available. I want to delay finding out for as long as possible.
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Woe to those who make unjust laws, to those who issue oppressive decrees, to deprive the poor of their rights and withhold justice from the oppressed of my people, making widows their prey and robbing the fatherless. What will you do on the day of reckoning, when disaster comes from afar?

Strongpoint

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #7344 on: June 15, 2023, 11:29:27 pm »

I don't get it. Death is one of the most comforting things there is. Would you really rather be the playtoy of something greater than you, a thinking force you can never really understand, which doesn't let you die?

I understand that there are many atheists who are quite comfortable with mortality and I envy them. I am not one of those. I do want to continue existing. What is more important, I don't want to lose my loved ones forever...

But yeah, ceasing to exist is very much preferable to eternal slavery to the evil tyrant described in the Bible. Especially if I'll know that billions of people are suffering in hell (not that I, a blasphemer, have a chance to avoid hell :D)
« Last Edit: June 15, 2023, 11:31:27 pm by Strongpoint »
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Egan_BW

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #7345 on: June 15, 2023, 11:33:38 pm »

Yeah, but it's unlikely that human beliefs have anything to do with the real afterlife, if there is one. So it's not like anyone is getting out of hell.
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Strongpoint

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #7346 on: June 16, 2023, 12:09:44 am »

Yeah, but it's unlikely that human beliefs have anything to do with the real afterlife, if there is one. So it's not like anyone is getting out of hell.

IMO, the Afterlife is possible only if some higher intelligence (God, gods or aliens or whatever) is interested in that and does something like copying the contents of the brain to a "cloud storage". Not that there is a single piece of evidence pointing at this.
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jipehog

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #7347 on: June 16, 2023, 12:30:27 am »

I understand that there are many atheists who are quite comfortable with mortality and I envy them.

People say many things that may or may not be true, but as the saying goes 'there are no atheists in foxholes'.. 

Humans are adaptable and we have many coping mechanism, of which religious beliefs are just one of.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2023, 12:34:50 am by jipehog »
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MaxTheFox

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #7348 on: June 16, 2023, 02:08:44 am »

Yeah, but it's unlikely that human beliefs have anything to do with the real afterlife, if there is one. So it's not like anyone is getting out of hell.
I lose nothing from sticking to one faith really. "What if you're wrong" is like... well no shit. Then I am wrong. I am taking the chances with what feels right to me.
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Woe to those who make unjust laws, to those who issue oppressive decrees, to deprive the poor of their rights and withhold justice from the oppressed of my people, making widows their prey and robbing the fatherless. What will you do on the day of reckoning, when disaster comes from afar?

Grim Portent

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #7349 on: June 16, 2023, 09:58:00 am »

I understand that there are many atheists who are quite comfortable with mortality and I envy them. I am not one of those. I do want to continue existing. What is more important, I don't want to lose my loved ones forever...

But yeah, ceasing to exist is very much preferable to eternal slavery to the evil tyrant described in the Bible. Especially if I'll know that billions of people are suffering in hell (not that I, a blasphemer, have a chance to avoid hell :D)

To me non-existence sounds rather peaceful. The complete cessation of all sensation and myself. There's a lot I'd like to experience in my life, but it's not like I'm going to regret what I missed out on when I'm dead, and the end of my internal monologue* sounds pretty good tbh, even if I won't be around to enjoy the peace and quiet. No anxiety, no depression, no anger, no sadness, no hunger or pain. Just nothing, not even a me to experience the nothing.

*I have one of those internal monologues that never stops. I find it hard to imagine anything else, but I am told that's not the case for everyone.
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