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Author Topic: Brexit! Conversation Continued  (Read 182570 times)

Neonivek

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #990 on: January 10, 2017, 11:01:15 am »

Quote from: Good ol' Nige
Good to see that the government have replaced a knighted career diplomat with... a knighted career diplomat.

The implication being that having someone who knows what they're doing in an unprecedented political move is a bad thing.
No, the implication being that having national interests decided by the self-interested in unprecedented political moves is a bad thing. It is the battle of career politicians interested in advancing their own careers regardless of national interest that got us with such unprecedented political moves as Brexit in the first place XD

Also Russia is sending Theresa May Pepes. I am not making this up, MEME WAR NOW

Dang people who make politics their career! Don't they know that experience isn't necessary in politics? Worse yet their self-interest will do terrible things such as... forcing them to do a good job.

Thankfully Faraday is only a politician for a short period of time and then he is planning to retire. Notice how he isn't doing a good job? That is how you know. *joke... because I need this apparently*

To be honest I don't see how it is in a politician's best interest to screw over the country... I guess it could be like that one president who basically screwed over his country in a way that looked good (Because it caused a very brief golden age... Selling everything will do that)...

Can someone explain that?
« Last Edit: January 10, 2017, 11:07:20 am by Neonivek »
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martinuzz

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #991 on: January 10, 2017, 01:09:12 pm »

I didn't know she fancied Latino old men
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Pepe, best president ever.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #992 on: January 10, 2017, 01:53:44 pm »

Dang people who make politics their career! Don't they know that experience isn't necessary in politics? Worse yet their self-interest will do terrible things such as... forcing them to do a good job.
Neo, sometimes it's wise to at least make an attempt at understanding what is being discussed before declaring your own opinion

Thankfully Faraday is only a politician for a short period of time and then he is planning to retire. Notice how he isn't doing a good job? That is how you know. *joke... because I need this apparently*
To be honest I don't see how it is in a politician's best interest to screw over the country... I guess it could be like that one president who basically screwed over his country in a way that looked good (Because it caused a very brief golden age... Selling everything will do that)...
Can someone explain that?
Some words are prudent here, they are the words of are basel Nyjal Faraday. A young man asked him a question, I can't remember the exact wording, however it can be paraphrased as thus:
"I am very interested in politics and would be interested in becoming a politician so I can represent my country; how do I get into politics? How do I get work experience with MPs or Lords?"
The advice Nigel Farage gave him was profound: Get a job, make his own money, learn how the world works, and I mean in every sense of the word works. Only after all that, consider going into politics.
The alternative is become yet another career politician.
The reasoning is simple; I have talked to a great many workers who say that in a lot of cases there is a discord between what is taught and what is reality, particularly in business and finance. I personally too have seen insane cases in the education system where though it is broken, though solutions are readily available, it is impossible to push meaningful reform because of the ideological positions of the teachers. Couple that with the insular nature of Western Universities that enforces homogeneous ideology and broaches no dissent, you get a dangerous situation where the leaders we can choose have no understanding whatsoever of how the people they represent think, belief or work. They cannot solve the problems of people they know nothing of, they cannot be relatable to people they know nothing of, they cannot represent the people they were elected to represent, thereby violating the only legitimacy they have to exist on taxpayer funds.

However the problem goes deeper than that.
As we entered the post-war era the House of Commons stopped being dominated by workers and tradesmen and started being dominated by career politicians. The typical trajectory of the career politician begins with a child under private tutorship to meet the demanding requirements of accessing elite private secondary schools. Upon entering these schools whose funds are far beyond the means of normal people to pay, they emerge with the highest odds possible for entering an Oxbridge or Russel league Uni at a minimum. Upon graduation they are able to secure work placements with Lords, MPs and civil servants whom they have already known since they were a teenager, whom they have potentially already been given work experience given that these secondary schools and Unis coordinate work placements for their students and alumni. Then they must pick which borough to be their seat; note, I did not say pick which party - the party doesn't matter, what matters is your electoral odds of winning in that borough, that decides what party you're in. Gain favour in the party, you get given a safe seat to represent. From then on it's upwards, accepting gifts, job placements, speeches, promotions, earning enough lucrative sums to fund the next generation's tutorship, and the process begins anew - if they're even spending their own money, and not spending donations or state expenses.

Consider this. A third of MPs in the House of Commons went to private school and a tenth went to Eton. The average salary of a person in the UK is £26,500 a year, British families need to make around £25,000 a year just to survive, a single year's worth of school fees for one pupil at say Eton or Westminster is £33,000. This is not just for MPs, 71% of senior judges, 62% of senior armed forces officers, 55% of top civil servants, 36% of the Cabinet, 43% of newspaper columnists all being from privately educated backgrounds. If you want to push an agenda onto the entire country, decide the curriculum for its future leaders in a handful of schools. Normal people cannot afford anywhere near any of the tools required to access such an elite system. This is an easily abusable system for a select minority of the UK to decide the destiny of the UK; they ignore that their power ultimately rests with the UK's people at their peril. Look at the two principle populists that are threatening in equal measure to destroy the UK or the EU; the SNP and UKIP. Most of SNPs MPs were educated in state schools, most of UKIPs MEPs never went to University, then consider how more Labour and Tory MPs got their degrees from Oxbridge than all other Unis combined, how can MPs say they represent their voters when they resent them and have no understanding whatsoever of their struggles? They live in idealistic worlds where they have spent their whole lives powerful and wealthy from childhood, it's an impossible endeavour. Thus such a system is naturally unstable and liable to extreme revolt.

But it gets worse.
Why does it seem so objectionable to have elite families command the nation, producing career politicians? Well, what is a career politician first and foremost? Well, it's a politician who pursues politics as a permanent profession of theirs. If you ignore my previous criticisms, on paper it can seem wonderful to have an established aristocracy who are raised with all the experience and intellectualism required to be a commander. Trained with excellent rhetoric, multilingualism, musical aptitude, athletics, scientific proficiency and philosophy, with experience and personal training from established politicians - it seems logical that such persons are the best suited to be leaders. I can speak from firsthand experience that their lists of talents are not exaggerations or lies, they truly do possess the skills they claim to possess.

Here it gets worse. A career politician concerned with politics as their profession is first and foremost concerned with maintaining and advancing their career, not the nation. They literally have no other choice, it is what pays their bills and maintains their elite social status. This means they must be willing to use every tool at their disposal, every person at their disposal, every connection at their disposal, the only thing that is indispensable is their career path. To put it in terms you may better empathize with, David Cameron did not campaign on the promise that he would deliver an EU referendum because he wanted the UK to leave the EU, he campaigned on the promise because he believed it would ensure his career would be maintained.

Combined together these factors all produce a horrifying situation, where high ranking officials and supposedly representative elected politicians are all schoolmates and have loyalties to one another regardless of what political aisle they sit on. They promote one another as they naturally trust the people they know already, and on a quid pro quo basis they in turn are promoted. Thus in spite of their elite intellectualism, the system produces ineffable sums of corruption where people are rewarded by corporations or foreign governments with lucrative jobs after their British career ends, and it produces politicians who are woefully inappropriate for leadership. See such things as Tony Blair become the Middle East peace envoy or Boris Johnson become for the foreign secretary for some extreme examples. Leaders that exist outside of the already established networks made in schooldays must then act ruthlessly and muster their own zealous following, hence why the four principle movers of British politics; Theresa May, Nigel Farage, Jeremy Corbyn and Nicola Sturgeon have constantly and immediately sought about purging and removing from power the elite in their ranks. For the elite career politician their loyalties are to their friends and themselves, not the countrymen they can scarcely empathize with. Contrast this with a working citizen who stands for election in their county, not because their county is a safe seat, but because it's their county. They represent their country not because they got the best advice from spin doctors and future colleagues but because it is their country, and they really do represent it. They want to serve, not command, and as we all know the greatest leaders are born from those who first learned how to follow.

It's been an overdue purge and it's still a long way from being completed. Democratic leaders must be selected without nepotism, corruption, favoritism, and represent the country and stand on their own merits - when they finish and their merits are exhausted, or their loyalties conflicted, retire or return to their career. Having a small boy's club of elite children control the future is liable to end in worse political fiascos than the ones we have already witnessed. As it stands the weaknesses in the system are obvious, if you have enough capital at your disposal you need only lavish a select few with gifts, donations and job placements to buy their loyalty, and with it the whole political system. Thus the option for those left who do not want to merely vote for the lesser of two corruptions must vote for any alternative available - and given how liberals reacted to the uprisings of populists, communists, nationalists and conservatives all over Yurop, it would be prudent to stop trying to make more Blairs and Clintons.

Thus when you hear are based Nige sneering at our government replacing a knighted career diplomat with a knighted career diplomat, you hear such noble titles; Knighthood awarded for gallant service, a career professional with in depth expertise in international diplomacy - we just hear "some bloke who is a family member, friend or fundraiser for the party". We no longer see anything professional in the conduct of the professional politician. The British public's relations with Whitehall mandarins is strained to say the least; Sir Ivan is yet more proof of the dubious loyalties of professional politicians, it is fortunate that our negotiations were in the end, not to be conducted by a pro-EU unelected official

Neonivek

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #993 on: January 10, 2017, 02:56:24 pm »

Neo, sometimes it's wise to at least make an attempt at understanding what is being discussed before declaring your own opinion

Sorry let me fix that

Dang people who make politics their career! Don't they know that experience isn't necessary in politics? Worse yet their self-interest will do terrible things such as... forcing them to do a good job *Joke, because this was apparently REALLY REALLY needed.*

O_o

But thanks for answering my question. I'll sift through it later, there is just so much here.

Initial thoughts:

Though I will say that at the least end... You need political experience and understanding... Or else you end up with a bunch of nincompoops. So this hostility still perplexes me because how do you even get a middle ground between "Career Politician" and "Not a politician"... There isn't exactly part time politicianing except at the low end town councils.

Though it seems less like "career politicians" are bad... So much that, that particular brand of them are bad... a sort of self-perpetuating corruption.
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Neonivek

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #994 on: January 10, 2017, 03:19:01 pm »

His point isn't that the people in politics should have no political experience, but that the current route of "career politicians" from birth to death leaves them entirely removed from the realities of the countrymen they claim to represent.

It isn't that. It is, as I said... where is the middle ground realistically?

It almost feels like Career Politician is a buzz word... So I suspect it isn't so much an opposition to the idea of someone either choosing, being indoctrinated, or becoming a politician for their career... But rather a specific flavor or clique of politicians.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2017, 03:22:38 pm by Neonivek »
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Neonivek

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #995 on: January 10, 2017, 03:25:37 pm »

Well, the way he defined it is a person whose sole source of income is from political jobs, and always has been since they've been needing to provide for themselves.

Someone who isn't a career politician is a person where, say, keeping their job as MP isn't a matter of putting bread on the table.

So... someone who isn't independently wealthy or has supporters who can pay for their needs.
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Neonivek

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #996 on: January 10, 2017, 03:32:29 pm »

Or someone who has another career path they can fall back on.

We aren't talking about Pro Sports stars who left their education and leave sports battered and bruised only to find they don't really have any viable career.

We are talking about educated, sometimes highly educated, people whose jobs often require deep knowledge of demographics, economics, business, and other aspects.

A Career Politician seems like a kind of person who could have another career if they wanted to.

So I don't think it is the whole "another career path to fall back on" aspect... If anything that is probably considered a knock against them... because if they mess up, messing up the country, they can just take another job. (it is often the criticism presented to similar people, that this is another job and they will just get another one after)
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Neonivek

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #997 on: January 10, 2017, 03:45:44 pm »

When I say "alternate career path" I mean one outside of the job of corporate executive or other job usually given to former politicians for the sake of them being politicians. A career path that they worked towards before they attained their political position.

I know that is what you meant, I stand by what I said. I don't mean careers in other countries, I just mean careers outside of politics.

So I don't QUITE think "Ability to fall back into a new career" is something included in the definition at least not as written. Unless I am mistaken and there is actually a tendency for career politicians to be unable to get a job after their careers are over.

---

Also why do I keep calling Nigel... Mike Faraday?
« Last Edit: January 10, 2017, 03:49:49 pm by Neonivek »
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Neonivek

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #998 on: January 10, 2017, 04:03:30 pm »

I'll jump out of the black hole that would be bringing American Politics into this (Especially since... Well... It isn't like the non-career politicians in the US are less corrupt... by a mile)

To me there is one quote that says more about the issue the UK has with career politicians more then "They don't care about the EU, they care about their careers" (which honestly... Meh...)

Quote
They promote one another as they naturally trust the people they know already, and on a quid pro quo basis they in turn are promoted

That there is a sort of intellectual/political imbreeding among the career politician path, that actively prevents people who attempt to become politicians through other paths.

A politician's club.

It speaks more about the folly in what it has become
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AntRib

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #999 on: January 10, 2017, 05:23:16 pm »

Lol didn't expect seeing this thread here.
I believe Brexit is another opportunity to see the rest of the world for the british pensioners. The June 2016 referendum has both short-term and long-term implications for current and future British retirees. UK pensioners have oft opted for acquiring property and spending their days in Spain, Portugal or Malta, which have unquestionably comprised the top three EU retirement destinations among British citizens for years.
 Keeping in mind the UK’s two-year severance with the EU, British pensioners may entertain plans to travel farther afield to seek out more affordable accommodation with less paperwork. In fact, those Brits who are looking to travel to warmer climes while still using their stored sterling may find a retiree’s respite in such British Overseas Territories as the British Virgin Islands or Gibraltar (https://tranio.com/). For those current or future wanderlust-filled pensioners who are still keen to capitalise on sterling’s strength, however, it becomes ever clearer that international travel to non-EU countries is the most strategic recourse to a weakening pound in a post-referendum economy.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2017, 01:29:36 pm by AntRib »
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Carpe Diem babe!

Loud Whispers

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1000 on: January 10, 2017, 07:04:47 pm »

Dang people who make politics their career! Don't they know that experience isn't necessary in politics? Worse yet their self-interest will do terrible things such as... forcing them to do a good job *Joke, because this was apparently REALLY REALLY needed.*
Experience is necessary to do well in most things, politics is no exception. Your mistake is in assuming the only people in the world who have experience are elite families, which is evidently false, especially in light of the innumerable aeons the UK has been run as a great power without the existence of intellectual elite commanders. I would have no issue with their self-interest if their self-interest forced them to do a good job - as it stands, it doesn't. Perhaps you missed my reference to Tony Blair and Boris Johnson, or was unaware of why they were extreme examples. Tony Blair is responsible for much of the destruction of the Middle East on the falsified grounds that they had developed WMDs, and was rewarded with a £500,000 salary in the private sector and appointment to the UN as the Middle East peace envoy. No one would deny that Tony Blair lacks talent or education, but he is woefully inappropriate for the job. Boris Johnson likewise is talented and well-educated, but is diplomatic toxin; no more is this clearer than with how one week he was writing poems about Erdogan fucking goats and the next week he was in Istanbul discussing Anglo-Turkish relations. This whole network of interconnected elite families of great talent may produce great people, but they are so often woefully inappropriate for leadership. As explained before their self-interest does not force them to do a good job, it does the opposite, forcing them to abuse the system they are supposed to uphold and work towards neutralizing the people they are meant to serve. A great example would be the Labour party for example trying to do their best to destroy the influence of Labour unions (the trade unions) within the Labour party. I'll repeat that: Labour MPs, working to destroy the influence of the Labour Unions, in the Labour Party. The Conservative party was not any better, doing its best to marginalize the Tory backbenchers who were actually conservatives. The whole EU referendum is easily the most illustrative example on this whole affair.

David Cameron believed that leaving the European Union would introduce a £40B black hole in our public spending budget, that pensions for the elderly would have to be abandoned, that the NHS would have to be privatized, the defence budget would have to be cut by a billion sterling, that a new recession would permanently cripple the British economy, that the decision would be irreversible and the UK would have to accept EU law with no say, that Jihadists would have open access to the UK, that three million jobs would expire immediately upon exit, that trade deals would be stagnant and nonexistent, that the UK would be torn apart by separatists, that Russia would invade all of Eastern Europe, that leaving the EU could allow it to be taken over by Nazis and incur genocide and WWIII - and despite believing all this, chose to run on the basis of delivering an EU referendum to the British public.

Why? Because in all his intellectual mastery, he determined that this was the method that would ensure his career advancement. He analyzed all the scientific polls, they all said the pro-EU side would win. He orchestrated a campaign using all the paralegal methods and established connections he had available to him, he exploited the psychological fears averse to change, averse to the unknown, and all to ensure his career advancement even though he was sure if he lost, the country would be destroyed. Not ruined, destroyed.
Still, he did it because all of his expert advisers told him it was a safe victory, all evidence pointed to how on paper, there was simply no way Leave could win. Thus we see the perils in effectiveness of politicians who do not live in reality and have never lived in reality, where they do not understand how the people they represent think, behave or believe - both in Labour and Conservative parties. It is ludicrous to argue that this system forces politicians to be good at their job when they're willing to gamble with the very existence of our civilization just to advance their career, and they fail miserably because their education and connections are no substitute for actual work experience.

Though I will say that at the least end... You need political experience and understanding... Or else you end up with a bunch of nincompoops. So this hostility still perplexes me because how do you even get a middle ground between "Career Politician" and "Not a politician"... There isn't exactly part time politicianing except at the low end town councils.
The middle ground between "career politician" and "not a politician" is an MP. Someone whose experience and expertise comes not from reading and talking about the subject matter but living and applying it in reality. Thus, it is very sage advice those seeking to become politicians, to first seek their own career.

Though it seems less like "career politicians" are bad... So much that, that particular brand of them are bad... a sort of self-perpetuating corruption.
The system creates the brand, excising the current brands of career politicians whilst ignoring the process that creates them would merely bring you back to square one at a later date. It's a massive vulnerability that is currently in the process of being exploited, if you do not see this as bad, I would like to know why.

It isn't that. It is, as I said... where is the middle ground realistically?
MPs who are not career politicians.

It almost feels like Career Politician is a buzz word... So I suspect it isn't so much an opposition to the idea of someone either choosing, being indoctrinated, or becoming a politician for their career... But rather a specific flavor or clique of politicians.
Less feelings, more facts. I put a lot of effort into explaining clearly everything, it's very rude to ignore it all in favour of your own unfounded feelings :|

We aren't talking about Pro Sports stars who left their education and leave sports battered and bruised only to find they don't really have any viable career.
We are talking about educated, sometimes highly educated, people whose jobs often require deep knowledge of demographics, economics, business, and other aspects.
A Career Politician seems like a kind of person who could have another career if they wanted to.
So I don't think it is the whole "another career path to fall back on" aspect... If anything that is probably considered a knock against them... because if they mess up, messing up the country, they can just take another job. (it is often the criticism presented to similar people, that this is another job and they will just get another one after)
Thus in spite of their elite intellectualism, the system produces ineffable sums of corruption where people are rewarded by corporations or foreign governments with lucrative jobs after their British career ends, and it produces politicians who are woefully inappropriate for leadership.
This really says it all. Please read a post before responding to it Neonivek, otherwise discussion is literally impossible. Highly educated does not equal highly knowledgeable, because they have been insulated to such an immense extent so many have fallen afoul because they are detached from reality. Which is a shame. As to the repercussions of failing, no. If you read my post you would see, and the likes of Blair for example prove you can destroy continents and still be rewarded with voluminous bounties of money and job posts.

To note, in the US (since it does work differently here) I do support term limits for most, if not all positions in the entire government (had to rethink single-term limits across the board, since there is benefit to seniority in politics). Hence, I don't really see the issue of a "fall-back job". Hell, I see it more as a benefit- they won't compromise the ideals that they were voted in on just to keep their job.
Term limits I find can often make things worse; instead of an elite class of politician families you just end up massively empowering an elite class of donor families who have an easier time buying politicians who can't stay long enough to effect any long term agendas, only short term crowd pleasing and corporate service

To me there is one quote that says more about the issue the UK has with career politicians more then "They don't care about the EU, they care about their careers" (which honestly... Meh...)
I agree with you but the minimal amount of effort you put into your posts is making me give up. Just, meh.

That there is a sort of intellectual/political imbreeding among the career politician path, that actively prevents people who attempt to become politicians through other paths.
A politician's club.
It speaks more about the folly in what it has become
It's like I'm talking to Rogal Dorn

ChairmanPoo

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1001 on: January 10, 2017, 07:16:33 pm »

Lol didn't expect seeing this thread here.
I believe Brexit is another opportunity to see the rest of the world for the british pensioners. The June 2016 referendum has both short-term and long-term implications for current and future British retirees. UK pensioners have oft opted for acquiring property and spending their days in Spain, Portugal or Malta, which have unquestionably comprised the top three EU retirement destinations among British citizens for years.
 Keeping in mind the UK’s two-year severance with the EU, British pensioners may entertain plans to travel farther afield to seek out more affordable accommodation with less paperwork. In fact, those Brits who are looking to travel to warmer climes while still using their stored sterling may find a retiree’s respite in such British Overseas Territories as the British Virgin Islands or Gibraltar. For those current or future wanderlust-filled pensioners who are still keen to capitalise on sterling’s strength, however, it becomes ever clearer that international travel to non-EU countries is the most strategic recourse to a weakening pound in a post-referendum economy.

Am I the only one who was puzzled by the lack of ads in AntRib's post?
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1002 on: January 10, 2017, 07:23:32 pm »

Huh, that is surprising. Are you kitchenrobit AntRib?

AntRib

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1003 on: January 11, 2017, 07:30:19 am »

Sounds agressive!
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Carpe Diem babe!

hector13

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1004 on: January 11, 2017, 08:46:19 am »

Quote from: Good ol' Nige
Good to see that the government have replaced a knighted career diplomat with... a knighted career diplomat.

The implication being that having someone who knows what they're doing in an unprecedented political move is a bad thing.
No, the implication being that having national interests decided by the self-interested in unprecedented political moves is a bad thing. It is the battle of career politicians interested in advancing their own careers regardless of national interest that got us with such unprecedented political moves as Brexit in the first place XD

Would rather like to suggest the unprecedented situation was brought up 'cause of populist politics from UKIP, which forced Cameron to say he was going to do the referendum in the first place for fear of splitting the conservative vote. I do agree that he wouldn't have called for it if he didn't think he was going to win, but he also wouldn't have called it if he really didn't have to. He didn't necessarily do it for his own career, but to eliminate issues that would threaten the Tories in the election.

Cammy then - though this is my biased speculation - refused to plan for a potential Leave vote 'cause he was intending all along to quit if he lost.

Fakeedit: having read over the preceding paragraphs, I can certainly see why you say he did it for his career, rather than the good of the country. Will have to change my mind without editing anything since I'm using my phone and can't be bothered :p with the exception of the initial point on why the EU referendum came up. It was Nige :o

As an aside: are diplomats/other civil servants considered politicians? Based purely on the letter from Sir Ivan, he seemed to be a dude who took the job seriously. I don't think the U.K. is going to be able to negotiate the terms of its exit from the EU and a trade deal in two years. It took Canada six years to negotiate its trade deal with the EU, and that's without having to unravel 40 years of politics at the same time.

I also have to disagree with your assertion the SNP are populist :p but, again, I'm biased like that. They did win a majority in the Scottish parliament in a system designed to make majorities difficult to achieve. They also received the most votes in both the seat and list votes in the last Scottish election.

It may be too early to say if their Westminster romp was a populist thing or that Scotland thinks that the  British parties don't have a clue wtf Scotland wants from politics. The EU referendum makes me think/hope it's the former.
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