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Author Topic: Wands Race - [Arstotzka] {COMPLETED}  (Read 375631 times)

Draignean

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3975 on: July 20, 2017, 07:55:43 pm »

Chief, I was not a fan of the  F43, and I see this as yet another stack on an overreaching shit sandwich that goes straight from 'broken as fuck hovercraft' to 'bestest air-superiority fighter that manages maneuverability that took real nations half a century'.
...he says, ignoring the fact that our artillery is on par with 20th century artillery and that we have internal combustion engines in the year 944.

Our advantages come from the fact that we can leverage our magic to make technology that won't be available for centuries. The F44 relies on this concept. Our cannons rely on this concept. Our engines rely on this concept.
Basically all of our designs rely on using magic to make technology seemingly far ahead of our time. It makes no sense to suddenly limit ourselves on real-world technology development now.



Damn, I forgot all our cannons were made in two designs after the first one rolled a one for efficacy. You sure showed me with that completely salient point!

Less sarcastically: Magic should not be a way to wish away logic. Maybe you'd like to use it that way, I fear pushing for increasingly stupid amounts of instant progress is going to be the death of us.
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3976 on: July 20, 2017, 08:06:35 pm »

Eeeh. It works and isn't causing issues. It's also supercool and unique! And it lays groundwork for future, more advanced and even cooler control schemes!
That and a joystick probably wouldn't be the best idea since the F44 ideally would have full freedom of movement in any direction and rotation in any direction at the same time.



Gwolfski asked on Discord to be added to the vote for the F44, so I am doing that.
Quote from: Designs
4 - ASAF-F44 Avenger: Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist, helmacon, Gwolfski
1 - Vigilant Sky Cutter: Lightforger
1 Mage-Slayers: RAM
3 - Antimagic Shielding: Kadzar, RAM, Draignean
1 Living Spell: The Watcher of Worlds: RAM


@Draignean: Yes, magic should not be a way to wish away logic. And we're not doing that. The KPD does not "wish away logic". It uses established magic to create the desired effect. We already have mastery with the Blastball - the idea is to use that mastery to achieve flight. Go from "making unfocused explosions" to "applying force" isn't easy of course, but not all designs should be easy.

And the story behind cannons seems to be pretty applicable here. I'd like to point out that the HC1, our first cannon, was envisioned as an Extreme-range weapon.
We got a Medium-range weapon.

Then we got stuff like this.
Okay, we got a cannon now.

And it's (once again) apparently useless.

It has the same range as our wizards and longbows, requires a wizard, and is less deadly than a wizard.

Well, maybe not entirely useless. I hope it has a greater fire rate, but that's it's only benefit. Oh, and maybe magic resistance.

Anyway, our problem was that the enemy engaged at long range, and our cannon has not at all solved that.


Revision : Long range fireballs

Upgrade our fireball spell to attack the enemy at long range.

Moskurg introduced an entirely new field of the war - artillery - with their ballistae. Then we tried to directly beat them in their own game by using our advantages against them with the cannon - a weapon we've never tried before that would only be useful centuries in the future.
The cannon wasn't immediately useful and some tried to convince others to not invest in it because of this. But eventually, because of the nature of our technology and that we kept on working on it, we completely beat Moskurg at their own game and almost won the game because of artillery.
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

RAM

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3977 on: July 20, 2017, 09:08:55 pm »

I do want to do flight computers + auto-aiming (Mindgems) at some point but definitely not now. But using them as a possible solution for the F43 is just a bad idea. As omnipotent as a pilot could be, it won't fix the inherent issues with the F43's propulsion.
Then there's the fact that it has a puny gun, and how it's literally a flying bomb, and much much more. The F43 will take far too many revisions to be directly practical.
I am proposing living spells as a solution for one of the flying machine's many problems. Mainly that of the pilot being ill-equipped to adapt to wind. It would also need to vibrate less. Our existing light cannon is sufficient for penetration at the ranges and angles that an aircraft could achieve. If it is not sufficient then there is no point in getting an aircraft as we can get the same ranges and angles from the ground using larger cannons and still have a cheaper result. We could work on the armament later if it becomes a problem, but at present it is a nonissue and the proposed solution of increasing the calibre is untested and may well not achieve an appreciable change even if it were required. It will only explode if it is shaken too hard or penetrated. It will continue to explode if shaken too hard so long as it doesn't have shock-absorbers and penetration is yet to demonstrate itself as a problem. Armouring the bomb would be desirable, but the thing doesn't fly yet. There is no point to armouring the bomb when it will still explode if it dive into the ground, and it will dive into the ground at the slightest urging. Living spells would have been grand if they had been accepted as our antimagic solution ages back when I first suggested them as such. They would still be a grand solution now. They would also serve for a great many automation tasks, such as automatically maintaining the stability of a floating coffin that would otherwise take the slightest breeze as an invitation to flip upside-down and forcefully pound its jellied contents into the dirt before exploding.

Living spells are a field which could grant a great many advantages, one of which is being a solution to one of the many problems that plague our hypothetical flying machine. It would also need competent propulsion. And to be used against a different enemy.

'Or we could do the mage-slayers and defeat antimagic by killing all the mages that try to use it. A "beat antimagic" design does not have to be purely that with no progress. A revision, on the other hand, pretty much does, has a greatly reduced scope over what it can protect, and can roll badly and just fail with us having no recourse to fix it.
See, this is funny. You say that an AM-Resistance design doesn't have to just do anti-magic resistance, but...
1.) The current propsed AM-Resistance design does just do anti-magic resistance and nothing else. You may have had a point if it did do something else, but it doesn't.
2.) If you really believe that AM-Resistance is this super challenging design (it's not) then that means the design would have to be practically dedicated to it, no?
We have three antimagic resistance designs. Can you admit that you are wrong?
 One of which resists antimagic by killing the mages that are casting it. It adds a discipline of homing projectiles.
 One of which resists antimagic by summoning a pure-magic creature that fights the antimagic. It adds a discipline of spells with independent agency.
 One of which is a cage to adopt into our current designs. that does little else. I agree that it is unambitious but then again, it is necessary to deal with antimagic right now, perhaps unambitious is necessary.

My problem with antimagic resistance is primarily directed towards the concept of it as a "revision" while you state that I object to it as a "super challenging design", with emphasis on the "design" part, which seems wholly inaccurate as an assessment of my position. Can you admit that you are wrong?
 Or perhaps, as you stated earlier, you believe that revisions can be more reliable than designs for achieving identical proposals. I believe that it is a considerable design, but not so much that we can't get creative with its implementation and get minor side-benefits by being clever. as a revision, of course, it will get an inferior implementation if it works at all, and if it doesn't work then we spend the next turn losing everywhere and are defending deep in our home territory with no naval support...
Chief, I was not a fan of the  F43, and I see this as yet another stack on an overreaching shit sandwich that goes straight from 'broken as fuck hovercraft' to 'bestest air-superiority fighter that manages maneuverability that took real nations half a century'.
...he says, ignoring the fact that our artillery is on par with 20th century artillery and that we have internal combustion engines in the year 944.

Our advantages come from the fact that we can leverage our magic to make technology that won't be available for centuries. The F44 relies on this concept. Our cannons rely on this concept. Our engines rely on this concept.
Basically all of our designs rely on using magic to make technology seemingly far ahead of our time. It makes no sense to suddenly limit ourselves on real-world technology development now.
And because all of our designs rely on magic we need to get antimagic resistance working more than anything else. But more to the point, magic is good at doing the impossible. But it tends to have difficulties with mass distribution. World Wars were primarily logistical, they are a truly terrible thing to base our forces upon. We have a scattering of 80mm guns after massive investments in logistics, Meanwhile we can blast their entire army with fireballs by making them really big. You want to make a fighter-plane to fight their airforce. You are limiting yourself to real-world technology. We should be trying to unleash doom-magic to destabilise the air-theatre so that nobody can use it. Limiting ourselves to war-machines is just pathetic. I just don't see how you can campaign so hard for internal combustion engines and artillery and then tell other people to divorce themselves from mundane considerations. Would you be willing to solidify your position on this topic? I mean, honestly, you call the thing the F## interceptor. You literally used U.S.A. fighter designations and named it "interceptor" after the technical term for the role that you want it to perform in modern militaries. But then apparently putting on a magical rocket-motor that works as a film instead of a tube makes it not consistent with "limit ourselves to real-world technology" while saying that "pushing our explosions from discreet undisciplined explosion into a constant unidirectional shaped force film might be difficult" is somehow completely binding ourselves to conventional sensibilities.


We have crystalclads that float, weight and mobility is a nonissue. We have protectors that are built for heft and volume, not agility. We have falcons and wasps? We have no experience at all with flying machines. You want to defeat Moskurg with flying machines, the thing that they have been doing for, well, they developed it from wind magic apparently... Which has been around for a while, and those carpets are not exactly new. Perhaps, maybe, just maybe...
We don't want to go head-to-head against Moskurg in the one thing they've been truly specializing in for practically the whole game. It'd be like if Moskurg suddenly tried making better cannons than us instead of building on their own advantages.
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3978 on: July 20, 2017, 09:12:54 pm »

We actually have experience in flying machines, RAM.

The F43.
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

helmacon

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3979 on: July 20, 2017, 09:17:15 pm »

@ RAM
4 anti magic designs actually. Personaly, I think the S.A.F.E. System us superior to the current proposals, and skills be what we do if we do anti magic as a design.

However, I don't think we should do anti magic as a design. We beat them in infantry, we beat them in artillery, the only place they win is in the air. Even when they didn't have their anti magic shutting our stuff down, they were winning with only the air stuff. We need an answer, and ash air force will help us at sea as well.
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RAM

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3980 on: July 20, 2017, 09:19:32 pm »

We actually have experience in flying machines, RAM.

The F43.
Machines that do not fly are not flying machines.
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3981 on: July 20, 2017, 09:19:57 pm »

It flies.
It just explodes seconds after flying.

You know the idea that you learn more from your failures?
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

Light forger

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3982 on: July 20, 2017, 09:50:17 pm »

CW we really didn't get that much from the F43. let's look at what we got again:
Design: ASAF-F43 Interceptor [1-1, 2+1+1, 4]

The F43 is Arstotzka's first attempt to get a man into the air.

The method of flight is via a very precise PSF-C propulsion method; attempts to create an "on-going explosion" didn't quite pan out, but it is possible to instead fire off a PSF-C four times a second to create a similar effect.  This is referred to proudly as the Kinetic Propulsion Drive.

The craft relies entirely on AAA-level Aethergems (also referred to as "AAAethergems") in order to cut costs.  Because it takes ten AAAethergems to create a single PSF-C, the craft is made up almost entirely of them.  In order to prevent the craft from running out of power, this means it requires 2,400 AAAethergems to allow sections to fire off while others recharge.  The timing of this massive (and I do mean truly massive) AAAethergem array is controlled via a set of complicated copper circuit controls, which are then linked to the command station in the cockpit and a set of igniters on the bottom of the craft.  The igniters generate the PSF-C's against the bottom hull of the aircraft in a wide, even distribution in order to generate lift.  The controls consist of two freely-rotating crystal orbs containing yet two more AAAethergems, allowing the pilot to control the rotation and thrust of the propulsion unit.

The pilots station is covered in a two-part crystal shell, one part of which slides forward to allow the pilot to exit.  Behind the pilot is a sizable crystal sphere in which the gunner sits.  The sphere has sections cut out to allow the gunner to enter and exit via the pilots hatch when the turret is straightened.  The rotation of the turret is controlled physically by the gunner, using his feet and hands to brace against the craft and forcibly turn the sphere.  A single HAC-1 pokes out of the sphere, off-set to one side to make room for the gunner.  We were unable to develop a 20 mm variant in time, but the HAC-1 works just fine.  It is fixed in the bubble, again requiring the gunner to physically turn the entire sphere to aim.  Loading is done by hand, and precise aiming is difficult.  The crystal glass is made of layered crystal to help prevent lightning strikes from killing the occupants, and should be thick enough to prevent bolts from penetrating easily - if at all.  Nickel cooling circuits zig-zag across the crystal canopies to keep the cabin a comfortable 21.1°C for both the pilot and gunner.  There is no crystal armoring elsewhere, however, as the weight of the craft is already so high there are doubts it can lift itself at all.  Regardless, a bomb bay in the center of the craft houses three Explosive Artillery Shells, droppable via a mechanical switch in the pilots station.

The first demonstration is overseen by the King, who is excited to see how his Expense Bonus is being spent.  Ram and Waffles are attending, taking a brief vacation from their honeymoon to oversee the maiden voyage of the F43.

Piloting the F43 are a pair of highly-trained and trusted wizards who helped oversee the construction and development of the craft.  They flash a thumbs-up to the watching crowd and prepare for lift-off.  The launchpad is cleared and on command the wizards fire up the F43.

Immediately obvious is how heavy the craft is.  At 2,400 AAAethergems, the F43 is the size of a small boat.  The PSF-C's fire off rapidly, but the explosions can barely lift the craft more than a couple feet before the ground-effect ceases to provide additional thrust.  The two wizards inside are shaken about as the craft vibrates at four shakes per second, and the entire thing begins to slip laterally.  The pilot, in an attempt to correct the unexpected lateral drift, over-corrects the craft and sends it careening towards the crowd.  He corrects his mistake at the last minute, this time over-correcting it in the other direction and sending it skipping into the ground.  The edge of the craft digs into the dirt and the entire thing flips over.

Luckily, 2,399 of the AAAethergems manage to survive the sudden impact.  The 2,400th AAAethergem sustains a bit more force than the others, however, and promptly detonates.  This explosion ripples to the neighboring AAAethergem, which likewise explodes, which detonates its neighbors.  In the span of a half-second the entire F43 explodes in a violent but spectacular chain-reaction of fireworks, raining bits of twisted metal and crystal on the horrified crowd.  Thankfully, no one is hurt save for the two exploded wizards in the F43 and dozens and dozens of maimed bystanders and a stray dog who happened to be nearby during the event.

The King is, quite frankly, disappointed by the crafts..."lackluster" performance.

Until the serious control, stability, propulsion, and thrust-to-weight issues are solved, the F43 is unusable and little more than a frightening proof-of-concept. 

Surprisingly, the F43 is merely Expensive.
We got,
  • Some knowledge in linking a crap ton of aethergems together
  • Some knowledge in using PSF as a propulsion system
  • Crystal cockpits
  • An unpowered ball turret
  • Some climate control
You know what we didn't get?
Stability, the craft is utterly uncontrollable
A powered turret they are using fast moving aircraft an unpowered ball turret isn't going to cut it.
A decent powerplant unless the KSP is 2-3x more efficient then our current PSF we are going to have weight issues
Armor the craft is literally made from explosives and is completely unarmored except for the cockpit/turret. Which unless we want it to explode the moment it get hit which means we will need to add more weight
Also vibration issues, the craft was shaking a lot already and once you add more power your going to need to add in more supports which means yet more weight.

We simply don't have a power source strong enough to do this type of craft at the moment. Which is why I want to use a faux lighter then air craft. No only should it's lift engine be more efficient but, thanks to magic we can remove the issue with mundane airships. Further more we can bake in what we learned from the F43 into our later designs easily so it's not wasted.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2017, 09:54:07 pm by Light forger »
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3983 on: July 20, 2017, 09:59:07 pm »

Well. Literally everything you've mentioned has been covered in detail in the F44 design with reasoning for why doing so is possible, but let me answer you here.

Power Generation
1.) We already doubled the power output of Aethergems.
2.) We can use A-size (or AA) Aethergems instead of AAAethergems, increasing power output even more thanks to the Expense Credit and the Aethergem revision.
3.) Something I've made very clear in the F44 proposal is that an intentional side-effect of the improved KPD is significantly greater energy efficiency as instead of just constantly detonating PSF-Cs beneath the craft we're just applying precise forces where they're needed. If efficiency isn't increased, then that means we got a low enough roll that there's no hope for the design anyways.

Propulsion - This is the first time we've used Blastballs as actual propulsion. We can use what we've learned here in the effects of Blastballs and their practicality in propelling a craft combined with our literal mastery of Blastballs to create something much better. The F43 suffers from stability issues because it's just powering itself via tons of explosions beneath it. We're using our experience in applying Blastballs as propulsion to make something much better.

Armor - Due to the greatly reduced number of Aethergems in the F44 we'll be able to armor the stuff. Crystal is already pretty light and we've already cut the weight of the F43 in half. Again, read the F44 design.
Weight - Weight is no longer a problem since we upgraded Aethergems. See Power GEneration as well.
Turret - "An unpowered ball turret isn't going to cut it." But we're not going to develop a powered guided turret here because that's out of scope. Maybe later, but you have literally zero basis for this assumption that an unpowered turret is going to cut it. The AS-HAC-1 is already great at hitting their vehicles and is unpowered as well. Its only problem is that it can't pierce the armor.
Vibration Issues - No, we do not need to add supports or the like. Vibration issues come from the crude PSF-C propulsion, which will no longer be done.
Stability - See above. Stability comes from the propulsion method.
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

Light forger

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3984 on: July 20, 2017, 10:15:34 pm »

Learn from what Moskurg just learned when they rolled a 6 on their design and, due to their weak power plant their aircraft still came out slow. We may have doubled the strength of our aethergems but, the last time we tried this the aircraft was so underpowered it needed ground-effect to get off the ground.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2017, 10:24:03 pm by Light forger »
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3985 on: July 20, 2017, 10:46:28 pm »

The flaw is not a weak power plant.
The flaw is a horrendously energy-hungry engine.

You know the HA1, right? And how it takes three mages to fire one shot? This is because the HA1 uses three PSF-Cs to fire its projectile.

And now take the KPD Mk. 1 present in the F43. It casts 4x PSF-Cs every single second. That is extremely inefficient. Luckily for us, the ideal KPD doesn't use PSF-Cs. It uses its own "spell" to work. And since we're making this spell from the start, we'll have more control over it.

Right now the KPD is like if you tried to make a rocket that worked by shooting missiles right under it to "fly". This is not energy efficient. The blasts go out in all directions, take lots of ammunition/supply (and in our case, power), and just generally don't help.
But with the Mk. 2 aimed at with the F44, this will hopefully no longer be the case. We'll build off of our experience with attempting to use Blastball-based continuous propulsion to make something much better at its job. Instead of just blowing something up in all directions beneath our craft, we just apply the right amount of force needed.


Also no. The aircraft couldn't get off the ground before the Aethergem revision.
For free, we upgrade the AAAethergems in the F43 to this newer variant and cut the required gems down to 1,200.  This decreases the weight of the craft, but it still suffers from stability, control, and vibration issues and is still unusable at the moment.
The problems are stability, control, and vibration. Note how he says "still suffers from stability, control, and vibration." Because we eliminated weight as a (serious) problem, but still had other issues preventing practical flight.
All caused by the current "spam explosions and hope it works" KPD.


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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

RAM

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3986 on: July 21, 2017, 12:34:04 am »

Power Generation
1.) We already doubled the power output of Aethergems.
2.) We can use A-size (or AA) Aethergems instead of AAAethergems, increasing power output even more thanks to the Expense Credit and the Aethergem revision.
3.) Something I've made very clear in the F44 proposal is that an intentional side-effect of the improved KPD is significantly greater energy efficiency as instead of just constantly detonating PSF-Cs beneath the craft we're just applying precise forces where they're needed. If efficiency isn't increased, then that means we got a low enough roll that there's no hope for the design anyways.
1: That was in a revision, the design itself did not achieve anything, and that development did nothing for the design. It might be a little easier now but it still fundamentally fails to prioritise what is important to actually having a functional design(stable propulsion) and a better generator won't change that.

2: The expense credit makes things cheaper, not smaller or more powerful. The D-cells might work, but they might be too large to fit, and I suspect that they are still inferior to the AAA-cells in terms of power generation compared to volume as the larger ones started at a MASSIVE level of inefficiency in that regard. So it is possible that they might be cheaper, but they will not be any more likely to get the thing off of the ground. The revision, on the other hand, might help, but again, it is just a weight saving. The craft currently doesn't have a working engine, so no amount of reducing weight will get it off of the ground using existing technology. So please recant the "the Expense Credit and " portion of the statement.

3: Yet another example of going out of ones way to make a design worse. The focus is to get the thing working and to get it stable. We made precisely zero progress towards the propulsion system. We had small frequent explosions before and we have small frequent explosions now. ABSOLUTELY ZERO PROGRESS HAS BEEN MADE TOWARDS PROPULSION! If e want to avoid the risk that we could be at this same design forever then we need some explicit prioritisation of getting the propulsion itself to work and be stable. Not that we want this design to work, it is hopelessly outmatched given the circumstances, but if we did then we would need to prioritise what is important to make it work. You shoot the design in the foot by saying that it should make it a priority to be more efficient, as though power-generation were the primary obstacle to getting something to fly when all it can do is flip upside down and explode. You can feel free to mention that "hey, since it is only pushing into one direction, rather that exploding in all directions, it ought to be more efficient, right? As in: pointing out a side effect that would give us a free bonus for being clever. But asking them to make it a specific priority when you make no mention at all of the importance of actually doing the thing that we COMPLETELY failed to do last time that we tried this exact same thing is a mistake. Just repeating the same flawed project over and over again, hoping to roll well...

This is an ongoing problem with these designs. They keep telling the G.M. exactly how effective everything should be. That is what dice are for. we can try explaining why things might work really well, explaining why the design seems to be clever and easy, but saying that "yes this is definitely a SUPER-DUPER-MASSIVE-TOTHEEXTREME!!! improvement to our SUPERAWESOME magic!!!$$$!!!" is not going to play out well. It just isn't our place to decide the effectiveness of things. If power efficiency is difficult then spending all our time on that might get us a penalty and doom the project. Saying "this is really good because it ought focus the force more efficiently and be super-stable because it pushes constantly and only in the direction that we want, so it is REALLY important that we get it working, even if it means ending up with a janky prototype that isn't efficient at all and don't have time enough to install it onto a vehicle" Would be much more productive, because it would prioritise what is important, rather than desperately trying to save face by insisting that it work to specification or not work at all.

Propulsion - This is the first time we've used Blastballs as actual propulsion.
Wrong. We have been using it to propel bullets and pistons and already knew all we needed to about using them to flip stuff over. We made zero progress on this front. The design was a complete failure at progressing propulsion magic.
our literal mastery of Blastballs
We have, like, two spells. Yeah, we have done lots with fireballs, but this is the edge of that. fireballs go to a place and explode into a ball of flame. We took out theflame, it was pretty simple. Now the design is looking to A: reshape the explosion to apply in only one direction. We have zero experience shaping the blasts, far less refining them down to a single controlled vector. B: a constant effect. We have only ever made discrete explosions, channelled fog might help here, but it is from conjuration and this is force magic derived from thermal magic, it is a big cross-discipline trek. C: conforming it to a surface. Again, zero experience, at best webs attach to surfaces. D: being a manifest magical field. This is a bit esoteric and maybe even semantic, but there is a definite concern here that we are trying to make a purely magical substance with a physical presence. Volume with no mass, as it were. Probably consistent with fireball's fire, but still a concern. This is a completely unprecedented application of magic and the design foolishly treats it as an assumption, even after we clearly failed to get it once.
Weight - Weight is no longer a problem since we upgraded Aethergems. See Power GEneration as well.
Weight only makes the difference between good and bad, at the moment it is doubtful that it will be at all, even if we do have the misfortune of voting to use an airforce against the sky itself and a loitering armada.
Turret - "An unpowered ball turret isn't going to cut it." But we're not going to develop a powered guided turret here because that's out of scope. Maybe later, but you have literally zero basis for this assumption that an unpowered turret is going to cut it. The AS-HAC-1 is already great at hitting their vehicles and is unpowered as well. Its only problem is that it can't pierce the armor.
A light turret would leave the operator exposed to lightning and ballistae. A heavy turret would be unworkable. If the force-film actually works then it might, potentially, be usable on little tabs to rotate the turret. If the design is more than "get this propulsion to work, and maybe stick it on a chassis while at it" then it will probably fail. If it succeeds then we will have a nice target for the enemy that completely controls the sky, and can develop it further to have a nice target with some shiny bells and whistles for the enemy that completely controls the sky. Without the propulsion it is nothing, and we have already seen, last turn, conclusively, that the propulsion is in doubt, because we literally tried to do the propulsions and it literally did not happen and there was literally zero mention of learning anything about propulsion from the disaster.
Vibration Issues - No, we do not need to add supports or the like. Vibration issues come from the crude PSF-C propulsion, which will no longer be done.
Clearly the tornadoes, squalls, lightning, ballistae bolts, and rough landings will not cause any vibration. Certainly, I could believe that they would have to be in trouble before exploding, but it would still be nice to have some insurance. Not that we would need any insurance if we just gave up on the project completely.
Stability - See above. Stability comes from the propulsion method.
The propulsion method is just pushing. What precise mechanism does the propulsion use to ensure stability? As near as I can tell it is basically a constant unidirectional force applied to all downward surfaces. There is no part of that that actually corrects a tilt, meaning that the pilot has to do so manually, in the middle of a storm, with whirlwinds... And if it flips far enough then they lose any way to right it si it just plunges to its explodey doom. Yes, it would gain much stability as a firing platform, but as a vehicle it would gain almost none. And they would be trying to shoot while being constantly jostled while being shot at by lucky strikes.

But hey, if we are so desperate to throw away our design, lets at least have some hope...

S.M.-944 "Steeple Belle" Sky Hunter
This is shaped like an upside-down full-helm with a short stump of an inverse-topped umbrella sticking out of it.

 We spend a great deal of time on the propulsion, based upon the observed pulse of force around an explosion. We focus on extracting and maintaining this pulse until we can go from a spherical explosion into a thin film of perpetual pushing, or "force film". Essentially, we end up with the surface of a wedge-section of explosion that is flattened out and perpetuated for as long as needed. We hope to have it generated to instantly coat a surface and continue to push directly against that surface for as long as it is active. Given the extreme focus and consistency of this effect, it is hoped that it will be abundantly stable and efficient. Converting this to circuitry ought to be fairly familiar territory so we hope to be able to produce a design incorporating it.

The design has a large crown hat atop it with panels to project the force film is specific directions. Being mounted at the top of the craft and directed away from the centre, it is hoped that it will be akin to the craft hanging from a string, and thus inherently stable, unlike our recent tragic disaster. This "hat" is connected via a solid crystal stalk and each panel of the hat can be powered separately, allowing steering by way of depowering the sections that are propelling away from the desired direction. We hope to have short, rounded, vertical "wings" out the sides with force film projected upon them when rotation is desired. If time permits we would further like to investigate the possibility of a weighted "skirt" that would constantly spin, with a counterforce pushing against it to keep the 'Belle stable, but this is likely too mechanically involved for the scope of the initial project.

The pilot is mounted in a bulbous section at the bottom, laying down on their stomach after having strapped themselves onto the "bed" using leather straps through designated holes. They are slightly inclined to ease looking forwards and have a rotating mounting with a small hand-mirror to aid in observation through the transparent lower-section of the vehicle, which they enter feet-first. it is operated by moving a lever towards a direction to reduce power in that direction while continuing to push away from the opposing direction. There is also a lever to increase or reduce overall power to the force film(with a clear label as to the point at which firing the cannon becomes impossible, we hope to institute a separate generator and storage system for our magical supplies so that the cannon can store power separately and continue to fire past this point, just at a lower rate, but at present the force film sadly consumes the storage before charge enough for the cannon can be accumulated) and one for the rotational controls.

There is a forward-mounted gunner with a hack-uno permanently mounted on a ring at its centre-of-gravity. It can relatively easily be rotated over about 40 degrees although looking down the sights can be difficult at extreme angles. The gunner wears stuffing in their ear for the entire duration, which is fine given that nobody could ever hope to hear anything in the conditions that they will be dying through. Communications with the pilot are achieved through strings linked to tabs, that mark directions and alerts. Such as "Kegger left" "opportunity up" "collision behind" just by pulling their own tabs. The back is consumed by a large bank of universal magical sources(U.M.S.).

The whole thing is armoured evenly with transparent crystal where the crew are. Visibility out the back and top are minimal, but we hope to refine that in later versions. We plan to keep the armour light enough that it can exceed the altitude of any kegger design, but failing that we will attempt to armour it enough to withstand a ballistae bolt at close range, if it can hold such weight aloft. Of course, all of this is dependant upon getting the propulsion magic working, without that the design would be useless anyway.

There! Looks ugly but actually works, as much as the ridiculous notion of building a flying machine in the current situation could hope to, which equates to "a complete failure, but better than some others". Antimagic is still the hugely more important priority.

The flaw is not a weak power plant.
The flaw is a horrendously energy-hungry engine.

You know the HA1, right? And how it takes three mages to fire one shot? This is because the HA1 uses three PSF-Cs to fire its projectile.

And now take the KPD Mk. 1 present in the F43. It casts 4x PSF-Cs every single second. That is extremely inefficient. Luckily for us, the ideal KPD doesn't use PSF-Cs. It uses its own "spell" to work. And since we're making this spell from the start, we'll have more control over it.
I find it difficult to believe that you do not understand that what you are saying is ridiculous. Our biggest guns fire very small projectiles along very concentrated tubes and they only need to move, Their orientation is handled automatically by their motion. That the unmentionable disaster could get aloft and maintain its orientation(well, it did neither of those things, but its pitiful efforts were adorable in their own way) with such ridiculously low power requirements is, quite frankly, wrong! I suspect that it had numerous such engines and was still ridiculously efficient.
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I shall be eternally happy. I shall be able to construct elf hunting giant mecha. Which can pour magma.
Urist has been forced to use a friend as fertilizer lately.
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Draignean

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3987 on: July 21, 2017, 12:40:20 am »

RAM, we've made our points. There's no point in going further, and quite frankly it makes reading this thread absolutely painful.

If he's right, we get to shrug our shoulders and have a great little ship. If he's wrong, then we get a nice healthy I-told-you-so and can work on our own line of differently insane technology.

Let it be.

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I have a degree in Computer Seance, that means I'm officially qualified to tell you that the problem with your system is that it's possessed by Satan.
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andrea

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3988 on: July 21, 2017, 12:40:43 am »

Quote from: Designs
5 - ASAF-F44 Avenger: Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist, helmacon, Gwolfski, Andrea
1 - Vigilant Sky Cutter: Lightforger
1 Mage-Slayers: RAM
3 - Antimagic Shielding: Kadzar, RAM, Draignean
1 Living Spell: The Watcher of Worlds: RAM

Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3989 on: July 21, 2017, 12:46:04 am »

Because people are stupid and can't even recognize genius when they see it, I've removed Linkgems from the F44.

You'll all regret this!
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!
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