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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 2605342 times)

Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3540 on: October 02, 2020, 03:02:20 am »

Let's take an example, say, Japanese.
Worldgen produces a mountain range called "The Mountains of Slaying". OK so fans using whatever system you're talking about quickly translate mountains and slaying in the word lists. But:
1) We need the code to tell the program to drop "the".
2 We need the code to tell the program to swap mountains and slaying into "slaying mountains".
3) We need the code to drop "of" in some cases, but not always.

None of that is "fan inputted translation". It's code that tells the game to obey the grammatical rules of Japanese (in my example, the very easiest ones). That code isn't in the game. That code won't be added by fans to the game.

Not saying it's impossible, but it requires Toady to write an engine in which fans can input their own languages' grammatical rules in addition to words. And, well, quick glance of Google Translate shows that they can't do it properly yet so expecting Toady and some Dwarf Fortress fans to whip up something in their "spare time" is pretty optimistic.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2020, 03:09:50 am by Shonai_Dweller »
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3541 on: October 02, 2020, 03:12:29 am »

Expanding on my previous UI feedback:
If key bindings are not going to be displayed by the UI except through tool tips, I'd suggest an in game toggle that switches between using icons and key bindings, If the default character tile set is used, it would do nothing (probably greyed out).
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A_Curious_Cat

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3542 on: October 02, 2020, 03:55:14 am »

Let's take an example, say, Japanese.
Worldgen produces a mountain range called "The Mountains of Slaying". OK so fans using whatever system you're talking about quickly translate mountains and slaying in the word lists. But:
1) We need the code to tell the program to drop "the".
2 We need the code to tell the program to swap mountains and slaying into "slaying mountains".
3) We need the code to drop "of" in some cases, but not always.

None of that is "fan inputted translation". It's code that tells the game to obey the grammatical rules of Japanese (in my example, the very easiest ones). That code isn't in the game. That code won't be added by fans to the game.

Not saying it's impossible, but it requires Toady to write an engine in which fans can input their own languages' grammatical rules in addition to words. And, well, quick glance of Google Translate shows that they can't do it properly yet so expecting Toady and some Dwarf Fortress fans to whip up something in their "spare time" is pretty optimistic.

Gettext works similar to printf.  The main difference is the difference is that while,

printf("The %s of %s\n", "Mountains", "Slaying");

prints:

The Mountains of Slaying

gettext("The %1$s of %2$s\n", "Mountains", "Slaying");

will (depending on system settings) look for "The %1$s of %2$s\n" in a message catalog and replace it with a suitable translation.

For example, the message catalog could contain the following two lines:

msgid "The  %1$s of %2$s\n"
msgid "%2$sの%1$s\n"

gettext would simply replace the first line with the second resulting in:

SlayingのMountains

As you can see, gettext is definitally capable of doing things like "dropping the 'the'" and rearranging words.  There's also the ngettext function that deals with plurals.

This also demonstrates one potential drawback:

It would only translate strings that were included directly into the game (i.e. in the source code).  Something else would need to be done for strings that are sourced from the raws.  I would suggest creating a new type of raw entry that would contain a translation of (one or more) string(s) from elsewhere in the raws.

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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3543 on: October 02, 2020, 04:21:05 am »

Still not seeing the "translators simply enter the translation" easy localization system. Just some code you've made. You expect translators to enter code for every variation on a sentence that could be generated?
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voliol

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3544 on: October 02, 2020, 07:38:00 am »

Still not seeing the "translators simply enter the translation" easy localization system. Just some code you've made. You expect translators to enter code for every variation on a sentence that could be generated?
The "message catalog" A_Curious_Cat is talking about is something akin to a raw file. People already edit those, and they're not really "code" per-say.

It would also greatly surprise me if Dwarf Fortress generated sentenced according to English grammar, as that would be a pain to code compared to using a bunch of templates, that Tarn (being a grammatically superior human being) can manually "generate" in grammatically correct English. One such template would be "The %1$s %2$s the %3$s in the %4$s %5$s[1]!" that, along with its siblings
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
and their armed cousins
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
compose a great percentage of all combat logs, and similarly many other composite sentences can be simplified into only a few templates, that can be translated freely.

Having written all that, I realize the problem lies in whatever words fill the templates, as some languages will be expecting versions of the word that simply isn't available, say an object/subject distinction for the noun "you", or for a raw creature, and this isn't really something you can go by by just rearranging words or changing what's in between them. Or another case form, or a definite form (instead of "the") etc. etc. I was going to bring up some examples of successful fan translations into English (i.e. Mother III), but English is a inflection-light language, which makes it a very friendly language to translate into using templates. Doing the reverse, translating from the syntax-heavy/inflection-light English into a more inflection-heavy language (say, German, Japanese is surprisingly inflection-light regarding the critical nouns and pronouns) ought to be way harder. You might be right after all.

[1] %5$ is whatever comes after the main attack, be it blocking, bones bruising or lightly tapping the target. As it is a subordinate clause, and afaik all languages have them, it can be dealt with separately (using similar templates) and then pasted into the final string.

squamous

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3545 on: October 02, 2020, 06:10:10 pm »

Regarding something like the semi-procedural dragon-generating system that's been discussed as a potential thing that could happen in the future, will that be available in the raws for modders?

« Last Edit: October 02, 2020, 07:20:30 pm by squamous »
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Lenin0Grib

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3546 on: October 03, 2020, 12:09:19 am »

Thanks Toady for answer.
In Russian community we have translation of dwarf fortress in russian. But how I understand it was very difficult for translate(mean hack code for translate). It not grammary correct, but it help easy for understand many texts in game. And if it will be possible to translate not harcode blocks of text like mode. For exmaple
names
Urist = Урист
Likot = Ликот
Ubendeb = Убендеб
Hide dead come ! = Прячьтесь, мертвые идут!
end ect.

So it no so imposible like you think. Yes it not correct grammaticly, but it possible.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2020, 12:14:13 am by Lenin0Grib »
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3547 on: October 03, 2020, 12:21:41 am »

Regarding something like the semi-procedural dragon-generating system that's been discussed as a potential thing that could happen in the future, will that be available in the raws for modders?
The intention is to have, as far as possible, everything like this in the raws eventually.

Of course, "eventually" could be decades from now, so probably "Maybe, sounds good" is the best answer you can hope for right now.
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I! RIAKTOR!

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3548 on: October 03, 2020, 12:51:23 pm »

When will be update 47.05?
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Eric Blank

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3549 on: October 03, 2020, 12:54:18 pm »

Whenever it's finished. Last estimate I recall was end of the year or next spring sometime.
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Criperum

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3550 on: October 03, 2020, 02:16:57 pm »

Thanks Toady for answer.
In Russian community we have translation of dwarf fortress in russian. But how I understand it was very difficult for translate(mean hack code for translate). It not grammary correct, but it help easy for understand many texts in game. And if it will be possible to translate not harcode blocks of text like mode. For exmaple
names
Urist = Урист
Likot = Ликот
Ubendeb = Убендеб
Hide dead come ! = Прячьтесь, мертвые идут!
end ect.

So it no so imposible like you think. Yes it not correct grammaticly, but it possible.
If it's grammatically incorrect then it's not localized properly. Also you've chosen quite simple examples. How about the fact that to make the word localized properly in russian you need to know the gender of this word. Also all adjectives related to this word has to know the gender and some verbs also. And i'm not talking about cases. And other languages hvave completely different issues that also has to be handled. That's why it is low priority. After all we have google translate that uses huge amount of resources and smart people to work and still the result is desired to be much better.
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3551 on: October 04, 2020, 03:30:45 am »

When will be update 47.05?
That's a question that won't get an answer. DF releases are made when they're done.

There are essentially two possible scenarios:
1. There won't be any more 0.47.X releases. Instead the next release will be the Premium one, which probably would be called 0.48.01 (or 48.01), as it contains major UI differences compared to the current release, and thus really need a higher major number, even if the contents according to the naming rules still only really qualify it for the 0.47.X. Toady has done the unusual thing to say that he aims for that to happen before the end of the year.

2. Toady tests out the parallel development process and produces 0.47.05 to get some wider feedback on stress adjustments, possibly with some needs tweaks as well. If that happens it probably couldn't be later than the beginning of December in order to get and process feedback into the Premium release. It would have to happen earlier than that if the process should allow for another iteration.
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clinodev

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3552 on: October 04, 2020, 06:55:27 am »

When will be update 47.05?
That's a question that won't get an answer. DF releases are made when they're done.

There are essentially two possible scenarios:
1. There won't be any more 0.47.X releases. Instead the next release will be the Premium one, which probably would be called 0.48.01 (or 48.01), as it contains major UI differences compared to the current release, and thus really need a higher major number, even if the contents according to the naming rules still only really qualify it for the 0.47.X. Toady has done the unusual thing to say that he aims for that to happen before the end of the year.

2. Toady tests out the parallel development process and produces 0.47.05 to get some wider feedback on stress adjustments, possibly with some needs tweaks as well. If that happens it probably couldn't be later than the beginning of December in order to get and process feedback into the Premium release. It would have to happen earlier than that if the process should allow for another iteration.

Tanya X. Short of Kitfox recently confirmed that "the next major "update" is indeed the first Steam release.", if that's any help. I admit I'm hoping for something more like your #2. I know from recent interviews that Tarn is fully cognizant that the need to provide a functional game is higher than ever, and I'm hopeful all parties realize that if the outcry for stress changes has died off, it's primarily because many players have quit playing for now in hopes of a refined Premium release.
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3553 on: October 04, 2020, 08:25:37 am »

A #2 wouldn't be a major release, so it wouldn't contradict Tanya's statement.

The reason for the posting about stress has died down could also be caused both by people having said what they have to say and gotten tired of repeating the same thing over and over, as well as Threetoe's thread being a very clear indication that they intend to address the issue before the Premium release.
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ror6ax

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3554 on: October 05, 2020, 03:26:46 am »

Quote
Toady has done the unusual thing to say that he aims for that to happen before the end of the year.

Wait, did he really say this? I was mentally preparing for next year's summer...
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