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[Superdorf]

Did some experimenting in BeepBox today.

https://soundcloud.com/superdorf-993493855/onions

[Quaksna]

Ohohoho a new fighter has joined the fray! Cool to see you here as well, Superdorf.

That's some sweet experimenting there, only at the end it fell apart, too much unrelated stuff stacked on. Yet still, strangely enough, it felt like onions

[brewer bob]

Did some experimenting in BeepBox today.

Had to test it out, but...

I've never learned how to use a piano roll (same with reading sheet music). Feels so awkward after being used to a tracker interface for several decades. So I gave up trying after a couple minutes.

Also, nice experimenting you got there with BeepBox, but agreeing with Quaksna about the end part.

[Superdorf]

Thanks guys!

I don't have a great sense for how to structure a piece of music, so I'm not surprised it fell apart somewhat towards the end... I usually get about 40 seconds in, then lose the thread. Any tips for extending a composition in a way that makes sense?

[Quaksna]

A single idea can be extended quite a bit, but you have to have some notion of what it actually is, the sort of "identity" of the song, that you will then build it around. Can be a motif, a specific harmony (like a set chord progression), then you apply some variations, perhaps transpose it at some point (move the whole thing to another pitch, retaining the distances between the voices, or use that opportunity to change it somehow), invert it, let the accompanying instrument play the theme and vice versa... Then you can have perhaps some section serving as the main theme, that would follow each of the variations that'd keep it interesting, that can extend a track quite a bit. I myself avoid repetition often to an unnecessary extent, and write different parts for every say, chorus or a verse of a song, but songs can handle identical sections, if something new gets introduced every so often.

Whatever you do, always listen to it and make sure it fits. Whether you work in chords or mere intervals, you have two intstruments or ten in a composition, there needs to be harmony. Nowadays you can get all kinds of futuristic effects and sounds that can kind of muffle potential discord, but that's all it is, compensating for a flaw in the idea. Sound is important but so is the form, if not anything let an odd element have intent at least. Best to stick to basics, create what you can grasp, understand, developing yourself into more ambitious ideas over time.

I don't know how much terminology I can throw around, if it'd help I could demonstrate some structural ideas on the latest orchestra song, just need to know which way it would prove useful for you - sheets, keyboard, or just the track with notes and timestamps.

You pretty much did have a sound structure in that one minute, beginning with one instruments, layering additional voices in time, when the main theme is complete, you can start playing around with new sections. You don't need to stick with the same idea in a single song either, a lot of fun is to be had in having multiple distinct parts and coming up with ways to put them together.

 

[BikeRacks]

Hadn't heard of beepbox before, nice share!

Getting out of the riff/snippet/~40 seconds phase is tough stuff. For me joining a band back in the day helped (no longer in it though) since I got to see how others went through the process. Also spend time analyzing music you like. Instead of listening purely for enjoyment instead listen to how things flow and repeat and when instruments are coming in and out; can go a long ways. 

In the end do what you like and what works for you. There are no rules.

[Quaksna]

There are no rules.

What bullshit 

I'd rather say there are rules, they can be broken, but you better do not until you have a good grasp of them, that is to understand their function and therefore how to utilize them or take advantage of their absence. I'll give an example, in classical music having multiple voices move simultaneously in parallel fifths or eights is considered a mistake. For a long while, I didn't quite understand why, as I felt it rather natural to maintain such intervals, and there is a reason for that - freqency wise, those are te closest you can get to the original tone, the most harmonic combination. And that is exactly the issue there - if you limit your composition just to these or make it consist too heavily of such, you rob yourself of the richness and fullness you can achieve with other tones. It is not that it wouldn't work neccessarily, only it's the dullest, most basic thing that can be done. And upon that realization, it ultimately allowed to put more thought into the compositions, it is never at an expense. And there are ways these older methods can be utilised - it carries sort of ancient, "medieval" sound, so if that's what you're going for, the knowledge of these less realized practices can help. In the end, you can't make people like music, but there is value in the craft, and perhaps a lot of people lack the means of appreciating it, on account of being ignorant most likely, so you can sell them just about anything, and our contemporary culture certainly doesn't help there, there's so much more to strive for.

So that's a better way to look at it, they are guidelines to work within, until you can ascend above them. But they are not to be avoided, one won't reach anything good by just ignoring them.

[BikeRacks]

Music is art man. 2 minute songs, 20 minute songs. Intentionally bad production or dissonance, constant repetition or no repetition or record 60 minutes of insect noises (see Tribes of Neurot - Adapation & Survival) . Our guitarist played with his left hand upside down (so similar to a keyboard or steel guitar) allowed him to do things other people couldn't. You don't have to break the rules but it can definitely lead to innovation or something unique.

Lots of folks have different ways of learning, some are self taught, some had instructors, some know tons of music theory, and there are some great artists that don't know hardly any music theory at all. In the end if you like what you hear, then keep doing it.

Plenty of rules/practices that Dwarf Fortress doesn't abide by whether be the graphics (particularly before the steam release) or balance, and probably behind the scenes in the code but we still love it.

[Quaksna]

Yes, and art is craft man. Therefore if it is to be of quality it requires skill and effort, especially the former. If you give up on the idea that's not even settling for less, just indolence. Being "unique" is far from enough. I for one fail to see how the insect noises are music at all, sure there is an intent, the idea is competently realized you could say, but outside of lyrical poems, why is it a song suddenly? Because you listen to it? If art is reduced to nothing but mere self-expression, what is so special about it? How is it meaningful exactly? Of course you can attempt to do as you please, but is it worth it? Well apparently not, given how too much of what you hear now is but wasted potential.

All I'm trying to say - the stuff is there to help you create something worthwhile. So if I am to give advice, passing this notion that there are no rules is pretty much the wrongest thing to say, not useful at all. Creativity, variety, I'm all for it, but the work has to be tempered, lest no one is ultimately to enjoy it.

[brewer bob]

I very much have to agree with Quaksna on this. "There are no rules" is bad advice. Music (like all art) has rules, they can be broken, but in order to break them you have to know what you are doing.

I'm self taught and know very little of music theory, but I wish that someone would have told me to go read/study that theory when I was still learning (heck, I'm still learning). Would've saved me a load of years spent banging my head on the wall.

[MeimieFan88]

Hey guys! Haven't posted here in a while. I released my newest (Melodic Bass) track a few days ago, check it out here

Stylistically I've been loving exploring the whole Melodic / Color Bass genre, which is super fun and innovative especially in terms of sound design and arrangement. Part of what I love about it is the unpredictability and newness of it all, while maintaining a really catchy flow / groove. Freshness backed by fundamentals!

Regarding the discussion about rules in music, I do think they exist but are also subjective at least to a certain extent. Music is what sounds good to human ears, and every person has a unique pair. My advice would be to focus on what sounds good to you, and develop in that direction as much as possible. It helps a lot to learn from others though (especially if you find that you really enjoy their style) because brains are more similar than they are different. What one person enjoys, another is more likely to as well due to objective qualities in sound and how it's heard by human ears. But there are definitely differences in taste. Like there's some music out there I don't enjoy as much as others do, and vice versa. Doesn't mean one is necessarily better than another. Like I can tell a LOT of skill went into the making of certain songs, but the style may just not be my cup of tea. Anyway again I'd say the most important thing is to focus on what you love, because your individual taste is something experientially intimate and undeniable to you, and is most reliably your true north!

[Quaksna]

That's some sick track there! A little hard to pick out some of the voices at times, but the lead carries it through well, it's more I'd have to listen to it a couple more times to get hold of all the instruments. Could do without the effects, but if that's the style of the day, sure. That's exaclty what you describe though - it has its own bells and whistles, but the fundament is sound, the underlying composition strong enough on its own. In my philosophy form is the dealbraker rather than color of the sound, for this very reason, a good composition you can "perform" in various ways, there's a reason why rock/metal covers of pre-existing songs are popular - it doesn't affect the original composition, the idea, but can magnify the package overall, point at the craftsmanship that was put in. It is hard to rank the appreciation of the whole package, that's where I feel the subjectivity enters and again, for most people that is all that matters, but the composition itself can definitely be evaluated and compared.

The problem I find with going on with which you as the composer like, if you're to carry on on the path, that likely won't last, and that's just how things are, but the better focus I find in what others not just can, but will enjoy, because such a guarantee is achievable. It is a matter of how serious one is about the whole deal I suppose, but it is worth more pusuing something long-lasting and purposeful, rather than amusing yourself for a fleeting while.

I had changed my mind somewhat recently regarding what role the color/timbre/instrument plays in the composition, it is clear to me that is an immensely powerful asset in the overall idea. Sometime around last Christmas, I think, I've remade Man's Calling into a classical four-voice arrangement, yesterday I've finally gathered enough recordings to cover the song, it is spliced, has a bunch of errors, for the thing has four pages and I am a pretty useless performer, so it took some time

Here it is, could've used better registration but does the job. Now this was highly experimental, by the standards I've set these few posts it has a lot of iffy spots, mostly caused by my at that time obsession to make each voice it's own thing, and while every single one does have a nice "melody" on its own, I am not quite good enough to put them together, at parts you can hear the tones clashing somewhat harder. I've tried to limit it to ninths at most, but it doesn't work as good here.

Now there was a way to weaponize such philosophy, however. I've bought me some orchestra samples, and did an arrangement for that. There, by choosing the right timbre, dividing the parts accordingly, I was able to draw most for that intention, ill-fitting for a single instrument, but fully realized here. Added some parts on top, and turned out much better, I am definitely to play around with this setup for some time now, have a few projects going on in a similar vein.

Here is the "final" orchestra version. Hope you enjoy.

[BikeRacks]

MeimeFan88, kinda curious how are you creating/recording the vocals, I'm assuming that's not you singing in various parts? I dig the synth lead that comes in at 1:55, simple but intense.

Quaksna, sounds great as usual

"there's a reason why rock/metal covers of pre-existing songs are popular " <- I don't think that's entirely because of the quality of the composition, I think much of that is because people like hearing stuff they are already familiar with. I mean....rock/metal covers exist for Justin Bieber 

[Quaksna]

"there's a reason why rock/metal covers of pre-existing songs are popular " <- I don't think that's entirely because of the quality of the composition, I think much of that is because people like hearing stuff they are already familiar with. I mean....rock/metal covers exist for Justin Bieber

Yeah good point xD Should've framed that better, regardless of popularity it just works in those cases of solid form  - no matter the ensemble, and some genres can be swapped like this remarkably easily as a result. Of course most people just like a particular sound, locked within a genre, which is a very plain way of appreciating music, but whatcha gonna do.

I think I'm tweaking the orchestra just a bit still, the tempo should be swift but needs to chill in some parts. That's why you need a conductor 

Also wondered about the voice in that meimie song

[brewer bob]

I mean....rock/metal covers exist for Justin Bieber

Well, that's because Bieber's music (whether he composed it himself or not) is professionally made and his songs are generally quality (pop music) compositions. Even if we don't like his music (though mostly the dislike seems to be more directed at his person), it doesn't make it technically bad.

But yeah, popularity plays a big part in why covers are made.