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[Vector]

Hypothesis:
Mafia didn't perform a mafiakill last night.

Evidence:
Nobody died, from my POV the only possibility a kill would have happened but failed would be if mafia tried to kill me and Jack protected it, but NJW's claim counters this unless exactly Tric is the would-be killer. In addition, mafia should attempt to kill Jack here every time as they are the doctor. Not me.

Speculation:
Mafia making two town players lovers, but also not killing anyone that night sounds reasonably balanced for this setup.

EuchreJack

Stop. We can talk through this.

Looking at things, I can hope they could clear it up(they being Vector/Met). Met might be a vig, in which case we could save the poison kill. Hence him considering it 'death heavy'. With Lover that would certainly track.

This is a reasonable conclusion. Met also asked for a tracker to follow them N2 to confirm them which makes me think Met could be a N2+ one-shot vig or something.

I'm starting to get a picture of this setup. Maybe FoU gave town a bunch of ways to kill while mafia are trying to make town self-destruct each other with their abilities?

I like this speculation post.

Same question with Vector. Who did you target if so? That's really the only other option we have.

I didn't do anything or target anyone. My role is 100% passive.

[NJW2000]

Spoiler: replies to Vector (click to show/hide)

Claim: I Watched ToonyMan. He was visited by TricMagic and EuchreJack.[/i]

Possibly there would have been an advantage from holding some of that back, maybe claiming watcher instead, but eh, I think I'd have had to lie about my role or something and I don't like that kind of gambit.

I am having a really hard time understanding how these two statements work together.

I'll assume that's a question, as you bothered to post it in the thread. Looking back, I do see that this wasn't particularly clear. Briefly, I wasn't sure if there might have been advantages to just claiming watcher and making other people fill in some of the facts I could confirm themselves - for example, as it turns out, this could have been useful in telling us whether Roden actually tracked Jack or is just saying he did. I decided that I should just put all the information I had on the table, as actually extracting value by withholding information might have required a weird gambit like this one, and that sort of thing can blow up in one's face.

I think analyzing the end of day is still helpful even with mechanical claims.

 - snipped quote -

I really don't understand why it's so weird to ask about EoD wagons at the start of D2 when -- note -- I was the first to post and there was no mechanical information available.

Ah, but of course it's weird, because I was not the first one to post and I did have mechanical information available ~

Seriously though, it was just a very specific question about a handful of players, which I may have misinterpreted as more unusual than it actually was - I thought you wanted me to base my answer on information available at the end of D1. Not that you assumed I'd be in exactly the same position as you information-wise, and still basing my play on EoD fluff. Met's response to finding out they wasted a load of my time by failing at reading comprehension was "triggered lol", so I'm not exactly primed for people making good use of my time this game. In any case, while it may have helped you in your reads, it did lead to a weird hitch in the flow of the game in which I was talking about reads from the end of D1 at the same time as mechanical information from the night. Jack seems to have been quite worried by some of my posts for the wrong reasons because of this.

Now that those essential matters are out of the way, let's get to the interesting bit: who we eliminate.


I know Euchre and Tric actioned Toony and nobody else did. Euchre claimed to jailkeep Toony and Tric claimed to redirect him to Jack. Toony and Tric claim to have been made delayed-lovers.

Three possibilities present themselves. I don't think anything else can have happened unless someone has a ninja matchmaker role or something.

    1) Toony and Tric are in cahoots and lying to us. This would be nuts mafia play, but is possible.
    2) EuchreJack made them lovers - simple and very plausible
    3) Tric Lovers'd themselves with Toony. Not completely implausible: town!Toony is unlikely to be eliminated if he kills scum, while Scum!Tric potentially taking Toony out with him would be attractive to mafia.

(I don't think Toony can have actioned the lovers'ing, as both EuchreJack and Tric's claimed actions would have interfered with Toony lovers'ing Tric, and I assume two scum max)

On the basis of this, I think killing EuchreJack would be a good plan. Then killing Tric, if Jack flips town - Toony can fire his kill before he dies easily enough, if that's a concern.

I don't think there's anything I'm missing. Other people can't necessarily use this reasoning unless they trust my watch results, but right now my plan is to vote Jack.

If anyone spots any holes in my logic, please do point them out.

[EuchreJack]

Looks at Meta and Jack. To note, my ability does require I pick two targets. The first which I'm redirecting, and the second which is the new target. And Meta, we already went through this, read the thread. Not just pop in, claim a death-related role, then pop out. I remember the game with the necromancer claiming Medium.

Thanks Tric.

Since we're in mylo if Toonyman and Tric are not lying mafia, mafia is one within NJW/EJ.
Or maybe we need to lynch FallacyofUrist as a bastard GM.  I'd like to see the worse version when this is all over.
Anyways, the thought occurs to me that NJW and myself should crossvote, and Toonyman should poison anyone that tries to untie the vote.
The theory is that if one mafia exists within NJW/EJ and we're in mylo, then only mafia would untie the vote, so killing them gets us out of the losing state.

So: NJW

Additionally, I can help more as Jailkeeper:

I am hereby committing myself to use my Jailkeeper ability on Tric or Toonyman.  I will decide my target randomly, either through a flip of a coin, a RNG, or some other way.

This helps Town because should the mafia team be Tric and Toonyman, I have a 50% chance of stopping their kill.  Or should the mafia team be anyone else, they have to either try the double kill at 50% odds of success or kill someone else.

This is an alternative plan to NJW's since I believe Tric, Toonyman, and myself to be town.
It also interfers with NJW's plan, and since I think NJW is 66% truthful mafia, I like that.

[EuchreJack]

@Toonyman: How much leeway do you have on your ability's day use? I mean, could you submit it after the vote? Otherwise my plan has the flaw that it creates a snipe hunt, wherein mafia could put in their vote 2 seconds before the deadline.

[FallacyofUrist]

@mod if a player is targeted by a jailkeeper are they targetable by any other actions at night?
@are you using Normal Action Resolution to determine the order of night actions this game?

A base Jailkeeper ability, as per the wiki, would only protect the target from kills specifically.

Yes, unless you mean something else.
Caveat: The nature of this game's setup means oddities in the resolution are unlikely but possible.
(Considering it's useful information for newer players, I'll probably put this link in my original post for any future mafia games I run.)

[Vector]

Thank you for the explanations NJW.

Reads.

Toony - I am almost certain that Toony is town, based solely on daygame. This reads overwhelmingly like Toony's town game to me.

NJW - I'm neutral on NJW at this point. It's possible that he's scum (I haven't seen him as scum before) but I also think at this point that's tinfoil hat thinking. There are better targets.

Met has done nothing particularly town or scum in my point of view. If they are scum, they are lurking scum over proactive scum. Claims a role having something to do with the dead in a game with open flips and no deadchat, which is a little weird.

Roden is also lurking.

Euchrejack has been freaking out a lot any time that people suggest that the scumteam is EJ/Tric. Also self-voting which is just... extremely fucked up if they're a town doctor/roleblocker.

Tric revealed being lovers'd with Toony and tied D1, along with pinging my scumdar earlier for sounding fairly reasonable. Claims redirector.



Additionally: If Toony/Tric is town/town, I think it would be better to let the scum take them out. There's absolutely no reason why they need to suicide today when the scum could instead grab a double kill or leave them alone for the wifom.

If they're town/scum, then there's another scum available and that scum wants to keep Toony alive (or Tric... I guess). This is honestly pretty good, too.

If they're scum/scum lovers then Toony is offering to daykill Tric AND himself? why. What would that possibly get them other than killed. Sure they could have something in their pockets but this is ONLY lylo/mylo if one of them is town, so they would need some other way to kill a couple people tonight after the daykill + lovers move failed to resolve.


If Tric is scum I'm fairly confident his partner is EuchreJack.

Otherwise I think the team is Roden/Met.

My opinion at this point is that if this is LYLO/MYLO, everyone should claim, since it will help us root out the scumteam through fakeclaims. I'll continue the trend: I'm an ascetic with some restrictions. For example, I'm NKable.

[EuchreJack]

So I'm confused by Redirector, maybe someone could answer the following:
If the tracker were to target the Redirector redirecting Player A's action onto Player B, what would their results be?

[EuchreJack]

@Vector: Are you still voting NJW2000?

[TricMagic]

Right. At this point not sure what your gameplan is jack. I get getting out of this.. But I don't really understand how.

As for Vector. He's NKable. And immune to lovers. Does that mean Lovers isn't a mafia thing? Or does it mean we have an SK in play? Or does mafia have both lovers and a night kill.(Which would likely be 1-shot)

If the middle, that means Met is lying through his teeth. Or Vector is the one lying and is mafia with NJW. Mets too suspicious.

[EuchreJack]

Euchrejack has been freaking out a lot any time that people suggest that the scumteam is EJ/Tric.

....

If Tric is scum I'm fairly confident his partner is EuchreJack.

Otherwise I think the team is Roden/Met.

My opinion at this point is that if this is LYLO/MYLO, everyone should claim, since it will help us root out the scumteam through fakeclaims. I'll continue the trend: I'm an ascetic with some restrictions. For example, I'm NKable.

Nice try Vector, but I'm not taking the scum bait.  I'm heavily scum reading you for this.  If anyone else thinks the scum team might be Tric and myself, I'd love to hear the explanation.

[EuchreJack]

Right. At this point not sure what your gameplan is jack. I get getting out of this.. But I don't really understand how.

I'd like to see a no-lynch, followed by mafia killing someone that isn't you or Toonyman.  It also puts town in a good spot D3, as opposed to the ELO that both of your deaths would entail.

[TricMagic]

Looking at that.. I'd think it would be vector. A Jack/Tric team means that scum loses now and here. I have no issue being poisoned if it means Jack also dies. Or the other way round. Either way Mafia is revealed. The only issue is if NJW is lying here. And the scum team are you and NJW.

Right. At this point not sure what your gameplan is jack. I get getting out of this.. But I don't really understand how.

I'd like to see a no-lynch, followed by mafia killing someone that isn't you or Toonyman.  It also puts town in a good spot D3, as opposed to the ELO that both of your deaths would entail.

Not the worst idea. Not the best, but not the worst. Issue with it is of course if someone dies we are in a worse spot, not a better one. That leaves us with 6 people, and if Toony uses their poison and we'll both town, we'd lose that day anyway.

Too many moving parts, and if one goes wrong they all do. Will Aesthetic return a Action Failed if you try to Jail him?

[EuchreJack]

Too many moving parts, and if one goes wrong they all do. Will Aesthetic return a Action Failed if you try to Jail him?

I think so, as would any other action.  I can't roleblock or save Vector.

Suspicious that Vector would say:

I'm an ascetic with some restrictions. For example, I'm NKable.

Since the definitions provided on mafia wiki explicitly state that an ascetic can be night killed.  But maybe I just missed 10 years ago when ascetic was created and it was immune to the NK.

[EuchreJack]

Right. At this point not sure what your gameplan is jack. I get getting out of this.. But I don't really understand how.

I'd like to see a no-lynch, followed by mafia killing someone that isn't you or Toonyman.  It also puts town in a good spot D3, as opposed to the ELO that both of your deaths would entail.

Not the worst idea. Not the best, but not the worst. Issue with it is of course if someone dies we are in a worse spot, not a better one. That leaves us with 6 people, and if Toony uses their poison and we'll both town, we'd lose that day anyway.

Too many moving parts, and if one goes wrong they all do. Will Aesthetic return a Action Failed if you try to Jail him?

Also, when I said better, I meant its better to have one dead townie than two dead townies.  Most plans seems to risk two dead townies, even if one dies later on.

[EuchreJack]

@NJW: Do you know if a watcher sees an Ascetic that visits another player?