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Author Topic: LGBTQ+ Thread  (Read 53648 times)

Rolan7

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Re: LGBTQ+ Thread
« Reply #930 on: August 31, 2023, 03:14:47 pm »

Ohhhh, are there any pre-colonial records of Ugandan homosexual practices?
The people of that area, like many in Africa (and Scandinavia), passed their histories on orally.  From what we know this was very effective at keeping knowledge intact and alive in the face of centuries.  It did less well against deliberate and violent procedures to wipe it out.

You might as well look at the Christian Norse writers who recorded syncretic, "corrected" versions of the old stories in order to figure out whether there were Norse Homosexual Practices.

Sorry if this comes off a bit aggressive but like...  The answer is "Probably not anymore", and I'm trying to assume you somehow didn't already know that when you asked the question.  Like, I don't consider myself a historian, particularly not of African history (I even just now fell in the trap of acting like the entire continent is one culture lmfao) but even I correctly guessed that Uganda did the oral history thing.  I even checked :o

Anyway you know what we do have records of?  The bloodthirsty fucksticks who went over there only a decade or two ago and pushed for these laws using colonial influence.  I cited some of those records.
The fact that they felt the need to do that suggests to me that the Ugandans weren't sufficiently homophobic previously.  Maybe that answers your question.

I'm so bad at coming out lol, but I think I stumbled into a good experience today?  I barely slept last night but my mom's friend needed computer help again, so I downed a big soda and went over there.  We recovered his passwords (again lol) and got all his contacts synced to a new phone, via cable, it was all very cool.  He was extremely happy.  I was too.  He called me a "booger" and a "genius".

In my altered state I found myself immensely relieved he didn't call me a "young man" this time, and I kinda blurted that out.  He didn't seem to get it.  So we sat and had a nice conversation about nutrition, and diabetes, and then I explained that while most of my family takes insulin I take estrogen.

that got through lol

And he kinda reacted... perfectly?
He was a bit surprised- fair, because I've always dressed masc around him.  But he didn't *say* that.  He said he was happy for me, that he certainly didn't have a problem with it...
And then he started talking about how there are so many bigots these days, and (this is the part that surprised and touched me) that they don't make sense.

I kinda expected the liberal "Well I don't get it but you have a right to do whatever crazy thing" brand of tolerance.  It's... not the worst.  Instead he made a point that bigotry is *wrong*, and that bigots have lost sight of our common humanity.
like, waow *_*

And I got to talk about the friends I've lost to the fascist pipeline... but also how I've found new friends who *escaped* from that sort of thinking.  We're faced with fear and hatred, and we offer forgiveness.  Our enemies are still people with the ability to grow and change.  Like many of us did.

It felt really good to get that out.  I think a lot of classic-libs see bigots and queer people as two equal sides in a war- a message the fash constantly push in memes- but a bigot can always stop being a bigot.  Forgiveness obviously isn't automatic but at least it's possible.  Trying to ingratiate oneself to someone who hates you... goes poorly, in my experience.  (and I didn't even get that sweet grift money...)

anyway I'm exhausted but I'm really glad I told him.  Wasn't expecting it to go bad, but I wasn't expecting it to go so well either.
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MaxTheFox

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Re: LGBTQ+ Thread
« Reply #931 on: September 01, 2023, 03:26:08 am »

Ohhhh, are there any pre-colonial records of Ugandan homosexual practices?
Their last king before colonization was openly bi and nobody cared.
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Caz

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Re: LGBTQ+ Thread
« Reply #932 on: September 01, 2023, 07:55:46 am »

Ohhhh, are there any pre-colonial records of Ugandan homosexual practices?
The people of that area, like many in Africa (and Scandinavia), passed their histories on orally.  From what we know this was very effective at keeping knowledge intact and alive in the face of centuries.  It did less well against deliberate and violent procedures to wipe it out.

You might as well look at the Christian Norse writers who recorded syncretic, "corrected" versions of the old stories in order to figure out whether there were Norse Homosexual Practices.

Sorry if this comes off a bit aggressive but like...  The answer is "Probably not anymore", and I'm trying to assume you somehow didn't already know that when you asked the question.  Like, I don't consider myself a historian, particularly not of African history (I even just now fell in the trap of acting like the entire continent is one culture lmfao) but even I correctly guessed that Uganda did the oral history thing.  I even checked :o

Anyway you know what we do have records of?  The bloodthirsty fucksticks who went over there only a decade or two ago and pushed for these laws using colonial influence.  I cited some of those records.
The fact that they felt the need to do that suggests to me that the Ugandans weren't sufficiently homophobic previously.  Maybe that answers your question.

I'm so bad at coming out lol, but I think I stumbled into a good experience today?  I barely slept last night but my mom's friend needed computer help again, so I downed a big soda and went over there.  We recovered his passwords (again lol) and got all his contacts synced to a new phone, via cable, it was all very cool.  He was extremely happy.  I was too.  He called me a "booger" and a "genius".

In my altered state I found myself immensely relieved he didn't call me a "young man" this time, and I kinda blurted that out.  He didn't seem to get it.  So we sat and had a nice conversation about nutrition, and diabetes, and then I explained that while most of my family takes insulin I take estrogen.

that got through lol

And he kinda reacted... perfectly?
He was a bit surprised- fair, because I've always dressed masc around him.  But he didn't *say* that.  He said he was happy for me, that he certainly didn't have a problem with it...
And then he started talking about how there are so many bigots these days, and (this is the part that surprised and touched me) that they don't make sense.

I kinda expected the liberal "Well I don't get it but you have a right to do whatever crazy thing" brand of tolerance.  It's... not the worst.  Instead he made a point that bigotry is *wrong*, and that bigots have lost sight of our common humanity.
like, waow *_*

And I got to talk about the friends I've lost to the fascist pipeline... but also how I've found new friends who *escaped* from that sort of thinking.  We're faced with fear and hatred, and we offer forgiveness.  Our enemies are still people with the ability to grow and change.  Like many of us did.

It felt really good to get that out.  I think a lot of classic-libs see bigots and queer people as two equal sides in a war- a message the fash constantly push in memes- but a bigot can always stop being a bigot.  Forgiveness obviously isn't automatic but at least it's possible.  Trying to ingratiate oneself to someone who hates you... goes poorly, in my experience.  (and I didn't even get that sweet grift money...)

anyway I'm exhausted but I'm really glad I told him.  Wasn't expecting it to go bad, but I wasn't expecting it to go so well either.

Aw that's such a nice interaction.
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Great Order

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Re: LGBTQ+ Thread
« Reply #933 on: September 01, 2023, 08:00:43 am »

Ordered some t-shirts, but this time they're women's relaxed fit.

I'm uh... actually doing something to move towards femme that isn't a cheap women's jacket I keep in my closet (Ironically) or underwear. Feels less momentous than I'd imagined.
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Re: LGBTQ+ Thread
« Reply #934 on: September 01, 2023, 08:15:51 am »

Ohhhh, are there any pre-colonial records of Ugandan homosexual practices?
You might as well look at the Christian Norse writers who recorded syncretic, "corrected" versions of the old stories in order to figure out whether there were Norse Homosexual Practices.
'Christian Norse writers' meaning the Saga writers? If it's good ole Snorri, it's hard to tell whether he let his Christianity run rampant in the Prose Edda. Undoubtedly it cropped up. I seem to recall he prefaced the Edda by saying 'hey this is Pagan malarkey but it's important to understand the kennings told here. They have literary value, whether for studying other Norse literature or creating your own, soooo....'

Which, again if I recall it correctly, suggests to me a fair degree of adherence to the original oral (or even literary, hello Poetic Edda!) sources.

Anywho, yea, some Very Serious scholars have done exactly that. Looked at Christian saga/poetry sources for evidence of Viking homosexual practices, I mean. The sources show homosexuality to be permissible if one is the 'active' partner. The sin being submission, not entirely homosexuality. Which of course is contra to Christian teaching.

Quote
Sorry if this comes off a bit aggressive but like...  The answer is "Probably not anymore", and I'm trying to assume you somehow didn't already know that when you asked the question.  Like, I don't consider myself a historian, particularly not of African history (I even just now fell in the trap of acting like the entire continent is one culture lmfao) but even I correctly guessed that Uganda did the oral history thing.  I even checked :o

Ah! I read the tone correctly then; you were being aggressive.
I'll answer shortly, then. As a historian, I can tell you that we're capable of extracting a wonderful wealth of meaning from incredibly biased sources. Hell, the more biased the better. Though of course it takes a deft hand to tease out the information. Whoo, postmodernism.

And besides which, not all sources are textual. Though I perhaps should have used a more general term than 'records.'

Quote
Anyway you know what we do have records of?  The bloodthirsty fucksticks who went over there only a decade or two ago and pushed for these laws using colonial influence.  I cited some of those records.
The fact that they felt the need to do that suggests to me that the Ugandans weren't sufficiently homophobic previously.  Maybe that answers your question.

Nahhh, not really mate. It touches on the edges of my question but completely misses its essence. Which is all good; text is a vague medium at best.

I'll look into it myself in a bit. Seems like an interesting rabbit hole.
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Great Order

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Re: LGBTQ+ Thread
« Reply #935 on: September 01, 2023, 09:17:53 am »

Hang on, wasn't the thing about "topping" being OK also present in Greek and Roman religion/culture? Like, topping is manly, but bottoming is effeminate?
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Starver

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Re: LGBTQ+ Thread
« Reply #936 on: September 01, 2023, 09:55:42 am »

There's the "<something something> immature youth <yada yada> the elder 'patron' <blah blah>" element, which might have meshed with who could be pitching/receiving. Both acceptably(/expectantly) so, but only in the 'right' circumstances. At least openly. Behind closed doors, anything (or nothing!) could be going on, in defiance of social expectations.

That said, acceptable practices probably varied decade by decade[1] and geographically[2]. "Greek and Roman" covers a lot of ground, and attitudes[3], and the baseline surely varied a lot. And then of course the individuals who were openly either staid or scandalous outliers, as I'm sure can be teased out of historic documents/fragments by any actual classicist with the yen to do so.


[1] when you had certain Emperors, fashions might change, or the stance of the various priestly authorities changed, etc, as the figureheads and authoritative trend-setters inevitably changed .

[2] Each Greek city state had - at various times - its own collection of expectations and allowances, or a Roman port might find itself generally more a syncratic mix of everything going compared to other more insular settlements.

[3] From the pious to the hedonistic. Or, because of some of the flavours of gods, piously hedonistic!
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Maximum Spin

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Re: LGBTQ+ Thread
« Reply #937 on: September 01, 2023, 03:33:36 pm »

Their last king before colonization was openly bi and nobody cared.
It's way more complicated than that. There's no evidence that it's true, he's accused of raping male peasants as part of his extensive tyranny, and it's tightly meshed with the propaganda of missionaries trying to overthrow his strongly pro-pagan administration. So the whole thing is dubious.
Hang on, wasn't the thing about "topping" being OK also present in Greek and Roman religion/culture? Like, topping is manly, but bottoming is effeminate?
Roman, yes. It was actually illegal for a Roman citizen to allow himself to be penetrated. That was what foreigners were for. There are some great literary scraps about this; Martial in particular.
The Greek case is more complicated; they had a clear concept of effeminacy, the "cinaedos", but this didn't apply in the context of a 'normal' homosexual relationship, and they also considered butt stuff to be wrong in general, but not specifically unmanly. It would be mostly wrong to have the impression you described of the Greeks.
What Starver's saying is largely irrelevant.
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Starver

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Re: LGBTQ+ Thread
« Reply #938 on: September 01, 2023, 04:00:03 pm »

What Starver's saying is largely irrelevant.
...but even you say that the ancient(ish) world has no monolithic sense of social mores. Please don't pretend to 'understand' what I say, as you argue against what I didn't. At least you could complain that I don't explain myself well enough and/or drift away from the point - that'd be fair enough, as I'm sure others would more readily agree, including me.
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Re: LGBTQ+ Thread
« Reply #939 on: September 01, 2023, 04:08:38 pm »

...but even you say that the ancient(ish) world has no monolithic sense of social mores. Please don't pretend to 'understand' what I say, as you argue against what I didn't. At least you could complain that I don't explain myself well enough and/or drift away from the point - that'd be fair enough, as I'm sure others would more readily agree, including me.
Well, there is simply no monolithic ancient world in the first place (classical Greek and classical Rome aren't even the same time period), but that doesn't mean we can't say anything and don't know anything. I'm not arguing against anything you said. You don't appear to have said anything.
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Strongpoint

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Re: LGBTQ+ Thread
« Reply #940 on: September 01, 2023, 04:40:21 pm »

Hang on, wasn't the thing about "topping" being OK also present in Greek and Roman religion/culture? Like, topping is manly, but bottoming is effeminate?

Romans yes. Greeks... it was more complicated. Especially if we remember that there was no unified Greek culture. City-states were quite different.
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Re: LGBTQ+ Thread
« Reply #941 on: September 01, 2023, 05:01:57 pm »

Especially if we remember that there was no unified Greek culture. City-states were quite different.
Mmm, yes, this is also true, but mostly people only care about Athens because that's what we know the most about, and a lot of what we do know about the others comes from Athenians. Athenians never shut up about anything.
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Re: LGBTQ+ Thread
« Reply #942 on: September 09, 2023, 05:33:40 pm »

Especially if we remember that there was no unified Greek culture. City-states were quite different.
Mmm, yes, this is also true, but mostly people only care about Athens because that's what we know the most about, and a lot of what we do know about the others comes from Athenians. Athenians never shut up about anything.
I personally think Thebes is underrated. The city was universally credited as the scummiest and most bastard-filled den of wretched villainy for centuries. But it was a military power that crushed Sparta and a cultural powerhouse that made a great deal of the poems and epics the Athenians stole the credit for, and the most ancient of the Greek city states. Xenophon's anabasis is 100% a must read for how fun he characterises each citizen of their city state. The Spartan general Clearchus is so war-hungry he got exiled from Sparta, and every piece of gold he acquires he just uses to recruit more soldiers. Everyone loves him. Proxenus the Boeotian is skilled at gaining promotions but utterly indifferent to actually leading his men, and no one respects him. Menon the Thessalian is such a wretched villain, that the only reason he makes friends with anyone is because friends are really easy to rob. Xenophon the Athenian himself, wasn't even supposed to be one of the generals there, essentially going as a student on his gap year abroad (after cheating the oracle by asking when should I join the expedition rather than if I should join the expedition). But due to unfortunate circumstances Xenophon ends up winning an election. Each of the Greek city states brings their own specialties to the fore. Guys whose specialties are light infantry peltasts, cavalry specialists - even Rhodian slingers. There's so many brilliant moments.

-A moment Cyrus, the Persian Prince, gets down in the mud to help get the wagons unstuck. His Persian nobles join him, proving they are not like his brother Artaxerces.
-A moment where a Persian noble doesn't get why Cyrus is putting this much effort into recruiting the Greeks. They have 70,000 Persian soldiers with them, so why would 10,000 Greeks matter? One of the Greek generals (I think it's Clearchus, but I may be wrong) gives the signal and the whole mood in camp changes at once. The Greeks immediately form a phalanx and at another signal, begin marching towards their Persian allies in the camp. At another signal they break into a sprint and all of their allies LEG IT. I don't remember the conversation afterwards but I imagine it had a lot of Cyrus going "I told you so lmao."
-A moment where Xenophon gets reported to the council of elected-officers to explain why he threatened to murder one of his fellow soldiers. Xenophon confesses and says he would absolutely murder him, because he caught the man trying to leave one of their wounded for dead. The elected council side with Xenophon and fine the man who accused him.
-One of the most legendary speeches ever. Spoilers:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

-Sometimes you get really cute moments where someone proposes a really good idea. Like one lad proposed using inflatable bladders to cross the Euphrates and they all nod, doing feasibility and agreeing it could work. Then someone points out the Persians would just wait for half the army to cross and then attack, and they'd be in great danger, so they moot the idea. But I like that the Greeks are always coming with out of the box solutions, coming up with pragmatic testing of those solutions, and they're always willing to listen to literally anyone in their army because the hierarchy is very loose and even the top commander and basic soldier is just an equal amongst equals.

-The diversity of the Greeks' specialties and personalities makes their 10,000 strong army incredibly tenacious, resourceful and adaptive. No matter what problem they come up against, they always have the perspectives of soldiers, criminals, merchants, philosophers, thinkers, rulers, diplomats and tradesmen pooling all their brains together to come up with the most straightforward/cunning/decisive/fair ways to deal with a problem.

Spoiler: more spoilers (click to show/hide)

Starver

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Re: LGBTQ+ Thread
« Reply #943 on: September 19, 2023, 03:49:48 am »

I'd just like to say that, as far as I can see this analysis (or at least as summarised) means absolutely nothing except how strangely average everyone is.

34% deteriorated, 29% improved and 37% neither. If anything, it's strange that so many didn't (self-report, note you) any significant change. Most people have changes all the time, outwith anything so specific. It almost couldn't be more like everyone just flipping a three-sided coin (just 44 times!). How is this newsworthy (prior to peer review, of the 're-review'), but I can see it being seized upon by those who need some 'proof' of something or other.

I just want to get in there first and express my doubt that it fulfils any particular agenda. (If anything, maybe "is fairly neutral" gets a look in, but you don't really get extreme status-quoists, in this sort of debate.)

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Rolan7

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Re: LGBTQ+ Thread
« Reply #944 on: September 19, 2023, 07:44:06 am »

It also means nothing because it's a reanalysis of 2011 data which somehow claims a much more negative conclusion, and hasn't been peer reviewed, yet the BBC is pushing it as important new information to inform policy and parent's decisions.  They use much more neutral language than the Daily Mail but there's literally no substance here, and a clear agenda.

To their credit they do admit this, halfway down:
Quote
The study is small - just 44 young people. And because of the way the original study was designed - without a control group - experts can't infer cause and effect or say these changes in wellbeing were caused by being on puberty blockers.
Gee, I wonder why they didn't use a control group.  Could they not find trans children without PB in the UK??  (this is a joke, the NHS lets most trans kids and adults suffer in absurdly long waiting lists).

PB are not supposed to improve mood over time, they are supposed to prevent irreparable harm to trans bodies.  They're better than the alternative (literal body horror), so they deliberately didn't study that.  Instead they discovered that trans kids growing up in TERF Island tend to stay unhappy, wait, actually become unhappier!  Wow!!  so glad they dug up 12-year-old data for this.

Reminder that PB have been used on cis kids since the 1980's, yet here the BBC is quick to call them "controversial".  They're only covering the discourse, right?  (and lending credence to it)

Anyway, here's a 2017 study of 104 non-binary youths:
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2789423
So yeah- when you compare trans kids on PB to trans kids forced to suffer through a puberty that...

Okay I'm actually a little overcome with emotion right now, sorry.

PB have been used since the 1980's and they don't magically become dangerous when "off-label".  This "reanalysis" is a fascinating bit of political science, but PB literally save lives and improve outcomes, and they're safe.

(they also don't sterilize anyone in these doses, in case we still have to say that.  You can overdose on vitamin A, dosage is important.  PB don't cancel puberty, they pause it and wear off naturally.)
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