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Author Topic: The NEW Future of the Fortress  (Read 304803 times)

umiman

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2205 on: May 26, 2009, 10:11:29 pm »

They don't need to have the same traits, but immortal creatures can't exist without motivation, much less lead. If not, what's the point of their existance? Even if their motivation was just to exist, the very act of existance is in of itself the motivation for existance.

What does this mean? We ourselves have no real idea what it means to be evil, but we can personify demons to be evil. However, even if their sole purpose of existance was to penetrate Japanese school girls in strange ways, then they are no more evil than a typhoon is evil because it killed hundreds of people.

However, this is only true if demons existed in the same format as a natural disaster. However, we know that demons take the helm of civilizations in Dwarf Fortress. This means that they have a reason for existing beyond that of themselves (how can you be a leader, make any decisions, if you don't have a purpose?) and if they are to be compatible with a civilization, you must be compatible in mind. This means they must grasp logic (or at least goblin logic). This all means that while immortal, demons clearly have thinking minds which aren't too different from goblins.

The proof for this is simple. No matter how much we try, we cannot control an ant hive like a hive mind can because our methods of thinking are not compatible. Similarly, we are currently unable to give orders to jellyfish because we don't know how since we just cannot communicate at our level of technology (or maybe we do right now, I dunno). The point is that if demons and goblins had different levels of thought that are completely seperate from each other, relationships could not be formed and demons could definitely not lead.

So, again by extension, since we know it's possible for goblin and humans to coexist, therefore it must be so that human and goblin minds must be able to understand each other. Therefore, after this long list of extensive logic, demons must be logical in similar ways to humans. And as such to dwarves.

And to save you time, I will point out how this argument is flawed:
1. What if demons are leaders just like how some cultures consider the wind to be a leader? Then bleh. Goblins are stupid.

2. Suppose demons and goblins actually have completely seperate mindsets. Maybe goblins are actually just leading themselves and demons are just tagging along as an excuse for goblins to do what they want to do anyway. Then bleh. Goblins are stupid.

Willfor

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2206 on: May 26, 2009, 10:48:58 pm »

Toady has commented on the fact that vanilla goblins are social darwinist* anarchists who basically follow the person who they think is strongest. Since they kidnap the children of stronger (physically) races, those children have the potential to climb their way to the top of goblin society through strength. Since demons tend to be the strongest when they arrive in some place, they can quickly climb to the top of a goblin society simply by being themselves.

*not the exact phrasing, but I thought it fitting.
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Dae

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2207 on: May 27, 2009, 04:05:58 am »

So much about why goblins follow demons.
About what are the demon's motives, perhaps their logic has the same base as the goblin one : the strongest is the best. So they want to be the strongest. So they want to fight, either to train or to show their strength. So they want to attract warriors. So they raise hate towards themselves by making all sorts of awful acts. And then, as time went by, they just caused pain for the hang of it.

Or, if they are a personnification of one and only emotion, they might be quite unstable. So, yeah, sort of crazy. Perhaps by ruling something, their mind feels less crazy. You know, having something real to use as a crutch.

We could as well say "Shut Up, It's Magic", but it's no fun.
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CobaltKobold

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2208 on: May 28, 2009, 11:55:21 pm »

[snip] Therefore, after this long list of extensive logic, demons must be logical in similar ways to humans. And as such to dwarves.
Also, commutation transitivity does not work with all operations-1 is within .5 of 1.5, 1.5 is within .5 of 2, 1 is not within .5 of 2.

As for the communication, you need the concept of "I am a threat" (generally communicable with pure body language and/or demonstrations) and the concepts of tasks that you want the other guy to do. Language barriers are generally surmountable with enough effort. And when they're trying to kill you, you will learn.
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PTTG??

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2209 on: May 29, 2009, 11:33:09 am »

RE: Demon Morality, a while back I put up a thread about some of this, and I got some interesting feed-back from Deathbane in particular.
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=28146.0
Mostly I discuss what is hypothetically "happening" in the prehistory of the world, or what kind of society would actually work like goblins do. Of course, that all ties in with how demons behave, and we go into a section on "why demons are evil", which is, basically, they choose to be.
Of course, currently they do what they do because the raws say they do.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2009, 04:43:10 pm by PTTG?? »
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Neonivek

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2210 on: May 30, 2009, 08:36:25 pm »

I am probably the only one here but I am really aching for a stronger definition of what makes a Megabeast or Semimegabeast (assuming they arn't simply there for game definition)

Though I realise it will never be answered. It is somewhat driving me a bit batty.
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Untelligent

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2211 on: May 30, 2009, 09:13:20 pm »

At the moment, a megabeast is a relatively powerful monster of very limited quantity that lives in caves, attacks towns during worldgen, and will attack your fort when it becomes large enough.

A semimegabeast is similar, only they won't come to your fort in Fortress mode.
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Neonivek

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2212 on: May 30, 2009, 09:16:37 pm »

At the moment, a megabeast is a relatively powerful monster of very limited quantity that lives in caves, attacks towns during worldgen, and will attack your fort when it becomes large enough.

A semimegabeast is similar, only they won't come to your fort in Fortress mode.

Yeah that is as far as it goes but is there a wider definition? So that if Toady made 100 more megabeasts we would see more things in common between them other then that.

What makes something a very powerful Semimegabeast instead of a megabeast? and stuff like that.
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Mel_Vixen

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2213 on: May 30, 2009, 09:22:21 pm »

Mega beasts seem never to occur in groups (not counting demons to this) therefore semi-megabeasts like GCS come in small groups.
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Neonivek

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2214 on: May 30, 2009, 09:24:34 pm »

Mega beasts seem never to occur in groups (not counting demons to this) therefore semi-megabeasts like GCS come in small groups.

Except Giant Cave Spiders, Nightwings, and Harpes are not Semimegabeasts and neither are powerful creatures like Demons. (though Demons are powers)

At least as far as I know

Meaning there is something bigger here beyond just power.

The only pattern so far is that Megabeasts are all size 20 death machines and Semimegabeasts are somewhat large humanoids with intelligence.
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CobaltKobold

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2215 on: May 31, 2009, 02:20:44 am »


 Nano Fortress would be sweet. They really force you to take advantage of every level. That is, unless a massive magma pipe is in the way or something. That REALLY teaches you how to manage your z-levels.

 Then there is Dwarf Manager. Useful as hell.

Nano Fortress would be really easy to add, and would be good for many purposes; you could, for example, use the 1x1 embarks to scatter little shrines around the world.
A little late to the party, but embarkanywhere.
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Toady One

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2216 on: June 04, 2009, 08:06:28 am »

Since it seems we're having a lull in the action in this thread, I'm going to take the opportunity to close it down.  The other FotF thread has become fairly broad in terms of the discussion, so next-version talk/questions can be consolidated there.
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