Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: [1] 2 3 4

Author Topic: Why not crossbows?  (Read 20555 times)

MagicGuigz

  • Bay Watcher
  • [magical]
    • View Profile
Why not crossbows?
« on: October 19, 2008, 05:05:43 pm »

I was just wondering why one would use anything else than crossbows.

I mean, a single crossbow bolt can puncture something like 2 organs.  Elite Marskdwarves can shoot something around a gazillion bolts a second.

Also, ennemies can barely ever reach an army of Marksdwarves.  Having wardogs accompany Marksdwarves (as meatshields) only makes ennemies ashamed of their own existence, while even Hammerlords can get killed by bad luck.

So...don't crossbows seem a little overpowered? (Oh yeah, also considering being in full plate and having a shield doesn't seem to diminish shooting skills in any way...).  The "it needs ammo" argument just doesn't seem to balance things up.
Logged

Squeegy

  • Bay Watcher
  • I don't really have any answers for you.
    • View Profile
Re: Why not crossbows?
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2008, 05:16:16 pm »

Trust me, the 'it needs ammo' thing makes a whole lot of sense when you're on a map with no trees and no wildlife.
Logged
I think I'm an alright guy. I just wanna live until I gotta die. I know I'm not perfect, but God knows I try.
Kobold Name Generator
⚔Dueling Blades⚔
Fertile Lands
The Emerald Isles

shadow_archmagi

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Why not crossbows?
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2008, 05:19:16 pm »

Trust me, the 'it needs ammo' thing makes a whole lot of sense when you're on a map with no trees and no wildlife.

That only matters for the FIRST siege, though.

Yes, crossbows are insanely overpowered etc etc.
Logged
invention is every dwarf's middle name
that means that somewhere out there theres a dwarf named Urist Invention Mcinvention.

Tormy

  • Bay Watcher
  • I shall not pass?
    • View Profile
Re: Why not crossbows?
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2008, 05:21:40 pm »

Eheh, yes, ranged weapons are overpowered. This is a known problem for a very long time now. I am pretty sure that Toady will balance this, perhaps when he will work on the combat arc, or maybe even before that.  ;)
..some related topics:
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=23789.0
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=14293.0 [lol I've created this topic  ;D]
« Last Edit: October 19, 2008, 05:24:40 pm by Tormy »
Logged

MagicGuigz

  • Bay Watcher
  • [magical]
    • View Profile
Re: Why not crossbows?
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2008, 05:49:03 pm »

I see...I thought there might be a reason...

Cool.
Logged

Untelligent

  • Bay Watcher
  • I eat flesh!
    • View Profile
Re: Why not crossbows?
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2008, 06:27:02 pm »

Fortunately, crossbows (or rather, the pointy bits they shoot) are almost complete useless against skeletons and other fleshless entities, mind you.
Logged
The World Without Knifebear A much safer world indeed.
regardless, the slime shooter will be completed, come hell or high water, which are both entirely plausible setbacks at this point.

Doppel

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Why not crossbows?
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2008, 07:44:44 pm »

I don't really think they are that overpowered. Surely not considering that (normally) its not exactly "easy" to make steel bolts. I think everyone is just so used to playing in optimal conditions considering land features and thus take top-notch crossbows and plenty a steel bolts for granted.
I do think its just far too easy to train legendary marksdwarfs though. Imo, i would rather make them take trice the time to achieve legendary. (or even longer) Just imagine then having a legendary marksdwarf, it would actually mean something.
(obviously trading for said items is a topic on its own)

edit: Rate of fire might be too fast though, halving it would be a good fix.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2008, 07:47:07 pm by Doppel »
Logged
Doppel has been ecstatic lately. He took joy in playing DF lately. He slept on a rough cave keyboard recently.
He is a member of the Dwarf Fortress Forums.
Doppel likes the color Dark Blue, cats for their aloofness and girls for their silky soft brea beards.
He appreciates art and natural beauty.

Marlowe

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Why not crossbows?
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2008, 08:36:55 pm »

When you get to  ten or more marksdwarves it becomes really difficult to keep them supplied with training bolts, and the melee specialists start to seem a lot more attractive.

Also, markdwarf training doesn't seem to help a dwarf much. It really only seems to help them with rate of fire and shooting through fortifications from a distance. Accuracy doesn't seem to change that much, and physical stats don't get trained.

Logged

(name here)

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Why not crossbows?
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2008, 09:08:23 pm »

It IS pretty easy to obtain steel bolts in vast quantities. i don't even have flux on my map, and haven't ordered any, but am STILL rolling in them. if reloading worked, i could lock my marksdwarves in their little room and obliterate an entire seige with a vast storm of steel bolts.
Logged
Only in Dwarf Fortress would you try to catch a mermaid to butcher her and make trophies out of her bones 

Stromko

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Why not crossbows?
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2008, 10:09:48 pm »

I'm pretty sure that ranged weapons did receive one 'nerf' already, it seems like it's a lot easier to deflect them with shields nowadays. Also it's still important to have strong, armored and skilled melee dwarves in front of your marksdwarves just to absorb enemy ranged fire. Marksdwarves cost resources and micromanagement to train and keep equipped, melee dwarves pretty well run themselves until somebody gets an arm broken.

I don't think it's the lethality that makes crossbows such a necessity in any army now, legendaries one-hit kill or disable things all the time, and a dwarf that's trained only with crossbows misses out on some major defensive skills. The rate of fire right now just gets a bit too insane, such that one with a full quiver gets about thirty chances to get a kill while the enemy takes eight steps.

All the same though, this might get fixed (or at least the issue changed entirely) when the wound system is revamped nearabouts the next release.
Logged

EvilCheerio

  • Bay Watcher
  • Whats Candlejack doing h
    • View Profile
Re: Why not crossbows?
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2008, 04:56:15 am »

you know, i just realized, while crossbows in real life are indeed one of the most acurate and powerfull weapons of their time, they should have atrocious reload times, in fact, an enemy should force should probably be able to close the gap between only a few shots assuming they start out far away
Logged
Delicious wine biscuits
 A real dwarf can survive on meals consisting of Wine, beer, and more wine.

Il Palazzo

  • Bay Watcher
  • And lo, the Dude did abide. And it was good.
    • View Profile
Re: Why not crossbows?
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2008, 05:10:18 am »

enter the Chinese repeating crossbow aka 'ten bolts in fifteen secs crossbow'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhuge_Nu
you never know which sort are the dorfs using
Logged

EvilCheerio

  • Bay Watcher
  • Whats Candlejack doing h
    • View Profile
Re: Why not crossbows?
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2008, 05:14:38 am »

i know about those too, i was just assuming that dwarves wouldn't have those, either for lack of invention or because they're not dwarf enough
Logged
Delicious wine biscuits
 A real dwarf can survive on meals consisting of Wine, beer, and more wine.

Il Palazzo

  • Bay Watcher
  • And lo, the Dude did abide. And it was good.
    • View Profile
Re: Why not crossbows?
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2008, 05:21:18 am »

invention is every dwarf's middle name
Logged

EvilCheerio

  • Bay Watcher
  • Whats Candlejack doing h
    • View Profile
Re: Why not crossbows?
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2008, 05:24:46 am »

that means that somewhere out there theres a dwarf named Urist Invention Mcinvention.
Logged
Delicious wine biscuits
 A real dwarf can survive on meals consisting of Wine, beer, and more wine.
Pages: [1] 2 3 4