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Author Topic: Method for transporting magma up z-levels without pumps  (Read 130414 times)

GavJ

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Re: Method for transporting magma up z-levels without pumps
« Reply #165 on: July 02, 2014, 08:57:56 pm »

I find it easiest for a one-time thing to just make a trench with a grate in the bottom and a drainage area and one pump. Fill with empty minecarts, flood, then drain. Ta da! Only need 2 filled minecarts per magma tile up above sufficient for one workshop each. Depending on how convenient iron is, just make enough to do it all once, or use fewer carts and do it a few times. Have dwarves just carry them up the stairs by hand. This is terrible for industrial scale moving magma, but since that's not usually the goal here, it's good enough for workshops, and takes less human and dwarf time to set up.

The newton's cradle sounds great for a continuously filling reservoir though
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greycat

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Re: Method for transporting magma up z-levels without pumps
« Reply #166 on: July 02, 2014, 09:07:08 pm »

I find it easiest for a one-time thing to just make a trench with a grate in the bottom and a drainage area and one pump. Fill with empty minecarts, flood, then drain.

That is the method I've had the most success with so far.  I still need to work out some kinks, and it's been a while since I've tried.

Quote
Ta da! Only need 2 filled minecarts per magma tile up above sufficient for one workshop each. Depending on how convenient iron is, just make enough to do it all once, or use fewer carts and do it a few times. Have dwarves just carry them up the stairs by hand wheelbarrow.

Fixed that for you.  When I learned dwarves could load a minecart full of magma into a wheelbarrow and transport it to a stockpile, not needing a whole track system... without !!Fun!!... I was just floored.

Quote
The newton's cradle sounds great for a continuously filling reservoir though

I tried that once, but I didn't use impulse ramps.  (I've never actually built an impulse ramp yet.)  I just had a regular track-ramp, going down about 3 Z-levels.  My way... did not work.  The incoming minecart didn't have enough momentum (or kinetic energy, or whatever the game models) to knock a magma-full minecart up out of the trench.
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PainRack

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Re: Method for transporting magma up z-levels without pumps
« Reply #167 on: July 02, 2014, 10:41:10 pm »

I find it easiest for a one-time thing to just make a trench with a grate in the bottom and a drainage area and one pump. Fill with empty minecarts, flood, then drain. Ta da! Only need 2 filled minecarts per magma tile up above sufficient for one workshop each. Depending on how convenient iron is, just make enough to do it all once, or use fewer carts and do it a few times. Have dwarves just carry them up the stairs by hand. This is terrible for industrial scale moving magma, but since that's not usually the goal here, it's good enough for workshops, and takes less human and dwarf time to set up.

The newton's cradle sounds great for a continuously filling reservoir though

Could you elaborate??you meant a trench where magma flows into it or a magma waterfall dumps its magma into the trench and minecarts
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GavJ

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Re: Method for transporting magma up z-levels without pumps
« Reply #168 on: July 03, 2014, 02:18:12 am »

I find it easiest for a one-time thing to just make a trench with a grate in the bottom and a drainage area and one pump. Fill with empty minecarts, flood, then drain. Ta da! Only need 2 filled minecarts per magma tile up above sufficient for one workshop each. Depending on how convenient iron is, just make enough to do it all once, or use fewer carts and do it a few times. Have dwarves just carry them up the stairs by hand. This is terrible for industrial scale moving magma, but since that's not usually the goal here, it's good enough for workshops, and takes less human and dwarf time to set up.

The newton's cradle sounds great for a continuously filling reservoir though

Could you elaborate??you meant a trench where magma flows into it or a magma waterfall dumps its magma into the trench and minecarts

A minecart fills with magma if it is in a square full of magma. It doesn't have to move INTO or OUT of that square on its own, however. It can just sit there without moving while you flood the tile with magma and then drain the tile of magma, and you'll be left with a cart full of magma still sitting there where you left it. Without ever building a single track.

Basically, you're flooding a minecart stockpile with magma, then draining it off again.

Quote
Fixed that for you.  When I learned dwarves could load a minecart full of magma into a wheelbarrow and transport it to a stockpile, not needing a whole track system... without !!Fun!!... I was just floored.
Sorry there's a chance I might have had temperature disabled in the settings when I did it by hand. My bad.
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Dwarf fortress in 50 words: You start with seven alcoholic, manic-depressive dwarves. You build a fortress in the wilderness where EVERYTHING tries to kill you, including your own dwarves. Usually, your chief imports are immigrants, beer, and optimism. Your chief exports are misery, limestone violins, forest fires, elf tallow soap, and carved kitten bone.

MeMyselfAndI

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Re: Method for transporting magma up z-levels without pumps
« Reply #169 on: July 03, 2014, 09:42:09 am »

I tried that once, but I didn't use impulse ramps.  (I've never actually built an impulse ramp yet.)  I just had a regular track-ramp, going down about 3 Z-levels.  My way... did not work.  The incoming minecart didn't have enough momentum (or kinetic energy, or whatever the game models) to knock a magma-full minecart up out of the trench.
You need the impulse ramps or the cart will not have enough momentum to push the other cart out of the hole, yes.
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Larix

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Re: Method for transporting magma up z-levels without pumps
« Reply #170 on: July 03, 2014, 01:08:02 pm »

Fiddling with it a bit, i find that an ordinary single-impulse-ramp setup _usually_ ejects the cart just fine, without the need to get it pushed:

Code: [Select]
#####      ##M##
═▼▼▼═      #═╗═#
..#..      #####
z+1        z0

M- magma inlet. Preferably a flow-fed trench, no pump.
It seems that the acceleration from a ramp is enough to push the cart out of the trench if there's no more than 6/7 magma on the up ramp. Since the cart's loading already picks up one or two magma, normal liquid flow will normally put the up ramp under the threshold sooner or later. You could use other connections, but this setup allows to have a setup where carts enter from east and leave loaded to the west; without the impulse ramp in the trench, the cart could leave in either direction.

If you feed the trench with a pump, it could re-fill before the cart gets out of the trench. As far as i can tell, smashing extra carts into it doesn't reliably dislodge a "swamped" leading cart.

My favourite design uses a single-tile trench (which means there's no acceleration inside the loading tile):

Code: [Select]

##.##      ##M##
╝D▼╝╝      ##═##
.....      #####
z+1        z0

This requires two minecarts. The first must be dumped or otherwise brought to rest in the trench - just throwing it in from the east over the impulse ramps accelerates it too much - it will pass through the trench but won't pick up magma (too fast). When it stands still, it'll pick up magma, and when now another cart is smacked into it from the east, the cart inside the trench will leave - very slowly, gets accelerated by the impulse ramp to the west and moves on normally. The pushing cart will roll "down" the impulse ramp, with too little speed to make it back out of the magma, stands inside and picks up magma.

For testing, i sent the carts over a dumping track stop and cycled them back into the pit; they "pumped" one 2/7 bit of magma every 130 steps, which already overtaxed the supply of a long 1-wide feeding tunnel. Shutting the door at D stops the operation and primes the system for the next go: all you need to do is haul the "upside" cart (on the impulse ramp, unsuccessfully pushing the one inside the trench) back to a pushing route stop, open the door again, and give another push. That's also the easiest way to start the system for the first time - close door, throw in a cart, open door, throw in the other cart.

PS: and you can move your loaded minecarts up automatically, via escalator, abusing the reverse of the impulse ramp bug - a long slope of single-connected ramps, which erroneously acts like flat track. Only consideration is that it only works with a very limited range of very low speeds. A dwarven push is just right, but a high-speed roller is already too fast. This takes a lot less construction and planning than impulse ramp or powered elevators, but the cart also takes quite a bit longer to arrive.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2014, 01:17:37 pm by Larix »
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fricy

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Re: Method for transporting magma up z-levels without pumps
« Reply #171 on: July 03, 2014, 01:16:50 pm »

Fiddling with it a bit, i find that an ordinary single-impulse-ramp setup _usually_ ejects the cart just fine, without the need to get it pushed:

Code: [Select]
#####      ##M##
═▼▼▼═      #═╗═#
..#..      #####
z+1        z0

M- magma inlet. Preferably a flow-fed trench, no pump.
It seems that the acceleration from a ramp is enough to push the cart out of the trench if there's no more than 6/7 magma on the up ramp. Since the cart's loading already picks up one or two magma, normal liquid flow will normally put the up ramp under the threshold sooner or later. You could use other connections, but this setup allows to have a setup where carts enter from east and leave loaded to the west; without the impulse ramp in the trench, the cart could leave in either direction.

That method only works for me if there a bridge at the magma inlet, not a trench. Haven't tested the design with a pump, because I was trying to find a powerless design, but according to my tests a bridge is essential to get the cart out, otherwise it just oscillates in the pit.

Larix

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Re: Method for transporting magma up z-levels without pumps
« Reply #172 on: July 03, 2014, 01:27:40 pm »

Could be length of the feeder trench - as far as i can tell, getting the exit tile below 7/7 is crucial to push the cart out. Atomsmashing the lava is a neat way to achieve this (doors should work just as well as bridges), but longish trenches also are rather slow to refill, so tend to create sufficiently low magma by fluctuation fairly reliably.

The single-wide trench works very nicely for me. I ran into the concept during my research into fluid cannons. I built both water and magma cannons based on it, it's the fastest reload method that i know of and very reliable to boot.
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fricy

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Re: Method for transporting magma up z-levels without pumps
« Reply #173 on: July 03, 2014, 01:41:56 pm »

It must be the fluid level then, all my test were run with 7/7 magma in a 3x1 pit, same basic design.

My favorite is a 2x1 pit (with ramps), a powered pump keeps it filled, and transmits power to a roller on the exit ramp. Build a trapdoor or a bridge above the input ramp, and when you need carts filled just drop them onto the input pile from above.

Diomedes

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Re: Method for transporting magma up z-levels without pumps
« Reply #174 on: August 11, 2014, 08:31:42 pm »

I tried this but my whole pillar disappears into the magma. At the first cavein auto pause I indeed see that the piston has dropped 1 Z level and that magma transporter on top. Am I supposed to use a trick to automatically restore support instantly so it only drops one z level.
When unpaused it all collapses into the magma cistern.

I even tried giving the pillar a side bulge that would cavein only one level before hitting rock, but that smashed open a channel of several z levels.
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khearn

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Re: Method for transporting magma up z-levels without pumps
« Reply #175 on: August 11, 2014, 08:56:38 pm »

You don't drop the piston into the magma sea, you have to dig a cistern with a solid floor above the magma sea and put magma into it. By solid floor I mean that the rock under the floor isn't mined out, so a cave-in won't just go through it.

# P #
# P #
# P #
#~I~#
#####


# - Wall
P - Piston
I - support
~ - Magma

So the piston falls one level and hits the floor that the support was built on top of. If your cistern is multiple z-levels deep, the piston will fall that many levels.

   Keith
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Diomedes

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Re: Method for transporting magma up z-levels without pumps
« Reply #176 on: August 11, 2014, 08:58:19 pm »

I said I have a cistern.

I thought you could do both a sideways and botton support. I did a sideways support. So I need one magmafree (the one that disappears when you trigger the lever-connected support) floor tile in the magma cistern?
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GavJ

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Re: Method for transporting magma up z-levels without pumps
« Reply #177 on: August 12, 2014, 03:00:38 am »

I tried this but my whole pillar disappears into the magma. At the first cavein auto pause I indeed see that the piston has dropped 1 Z level and that magma transporter on top. Am I supposed to use a trick to automatically restore support instantly so it only drops one z level.
When unpaused it all collapses into the magma cistern.

I even tried giving the pillar a side bulge that would cavein only one level before hitting rock, but that smashed open a channel of several z levels.
During a cave-in, every single tile falling acts as a disconnected, individual entity. They do not check side support as they fall. You seem to be experiencing difficulties due to misunderstanding this. Side bulges, side support, bottom support only for a portion -- none of these can work. Side bulges can work for initial triggering, but not for "catching" anything.

You must have a full, NATURAL (or cast obsidian) wall underneath every single 1x1 column of your pillar. Constructed floors or constructed walls above semi-molten rock are no good, and anything to the side of the pillar is irrelevant.

Generally, the easiest way is to find an area of the map where a natural column of rock extends into the great magma sea. Often, these also extend to pillars through the caverns, making it the least effortful spot. Then just channel down below the surface of the magma sea (but still dry and not semi-molten,since you're in a column of normal rock), and then dig a little flooding channel before you drop your piston.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2014, 03:04:41 am by GavJ »
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Dwarf fortress in 50 words: You start with seven alcoholic, manic-depressive dwarves. You build a fortress in the wilderness where EVERYTHING tries to kill you, including your own dwarves. Usually, your chief imports are immigrants, beer, and optimism. Your chief exports are misery, limestone violins, forest fires, elf tallow soap, and carved kitten bone.

sniper_231996

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Re: Method for transporting magma up z-levels without pumps
« Reply #178 on: January 28, 2023, 02:33:03 pm »

I made a 3x3 pillar, I dropped the piston, magma moved a little, I used the obsidian caster to make top obby with bottom drained, now the dwarves don't dig the obsidian and don't dig at the bottom. What do you suggest to solve the problem? The wall is rough hewn warm wall. at bottom it is all clear but they won't dig the pillar after first pump. What do you suggest?
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mightymushroom

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Re: Method for transporting magma up z-levels without pumps
« Reply #179 on: January 30, 2023, 10:32:34 am »

That sounds like temperature calculations have been toggled off. So, the affected tiles remain forever hot as magma, which is too hot for dwarven safety regulations. Check your settings.
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