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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page  (Read 878038 times)

Mel_Vixen

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #2370 on: December 03, 2010, 05:20:40 am »

Just beautiful. heh good enough for economy schools i would think.

I hope all the data makes it into the XML and gets some filters. I mean its nice to see all that traderoutes but i would like to see the flow of certain goods, say diamonds or metals.

These Maps are pure gold. The help with war, economics heck one could use them to remote-controll other civs and start wars between them just by influencing the right values. The so called "Butterfly"-effect comes to mind you would need just the right time an place - oh that would be some wonderfull shemes for demons. 

Any Plans to make the civ-leaders aware of this network (in parts)? Will civs or entitys try to actively search for new resources and tradepartners? 

I also noticed that a number of the dwarfen civs (on the middle-sized island) didnt trade at all not even between theyr own settlements. Bug/Feature?

edit:

 
  I notice some of the trade routes go over water. Will there be some kind of sea travel anytime soon?
 
 
  This is pretty much a given.  It'd probably be easy enough to fudge some   numbers in world gen to get world gen "trade boats", what we don't know   is how boats would work in Dwarf/Adventure mode.
 

Well these traderoutes could also be realized via the caverns. The entire world sits on a giant interconnecting cave system so i would guess you could use certain shortcuts to get around oceans rivers and Mountain-ranges - kinda like the way through Moria in LOTR.   
« Last Edit: December 03, 2010, 05:24:06 am by Heph »
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LoSboccacc

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #2371 on: December 03, 2010, 05:26:35 am »

 so, if there are path over water and if there are no actual ship travelling and ports and such, can we assume caravans are abstracted away from the world map? if that's the case, isn't there no caravan raiding in adventure mode? (apart from abstracted away caravan raiding, that is)
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MrWiggles

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #2372 on: December 03, 2010, 05:29:32 am »

I assume roads will be effected by trade routs, right?

Where did you notice this? oO

Nevermind, noticed the ninja update by ThreeToe.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2010, 06:37:29 am by MrWiggles »
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Brisk

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #2373 on: December 03, 2010, 05:44:06 am »

If in adventure mode we kill all the farms that feed into a town will the town suffer?
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Glanzor

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #2374 on: December 03, 2010, 06:12:38 am »

Those maps are pretty interesting. The different colours seem to depict different types of civilizations.
Are the purple cities dark fortresses? Does that mean the goblins actually trade this time?  
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Lord Shonus

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #2375 on: December 03, 2010, 06:36:16 am »

Looking over the maps posted in the devlog, I've noticed that there are many potential trade routes unused, and several of the marked sites are not connected.

With that in mind, how does the game determine the connections? Is it simple distance combined with relations? Is there something more complex going on?
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VDOgamez

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #2376 on: December 03, 2010, 08:12:18 am »

After seeing these maps, I came to the deeply disturbing realization that the Dwarf Fortress world generation is pretty much exactly the same as the planetary simulation program I have been working on for the last year. This new step pretty much takes the cake, because it looks like an exact duplicate of the diagrams that I have from the initial planning stage of my program where I worked out the algorithms for city placement, national borders, and intra/international trade routes. Not to mention the fact that the terrains themselves look disturbingly similar to the ones my program is generating. *Wears tinfoil hat*
What kind of algorithms are being used for determination of the trading patterns of cities, civilizations, and species?
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Mel_Vixen

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #2377 on: December 03, 2010, 08:35:03 am »

VDO toady uses your algorithms for a greater good. now look at the small redlight in the upper left corner of the screen for 30 seconds *Flash* 8)

You have never written any world economy simulation. There wasnt a group of short bearded agents at your Computer to copy any of your nonexisting data. The sudden feeling of deja vu stems from the fact that you wear pants.
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nenjin

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #2378 on: December 03, 2010, 09:06:49 am »

Forget economic theory. Those trade route maps and the flow of civ and fort specific items and goods that will go through them is beautiful enough to make an anthropologist cry.
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Footkerchief

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #2379 on: December 03, 2010, 10:58:32 am »

I notice some of the trade routes go over water. Will there be some kind of sea travel anytime soon?

Already asked recently:

Toady, as 31.19 will be the Caravan Arc, does that mean we'll get boats too? 



so, if there are path over water and if there are no actual ship travelling and ports and such, can we assume caravans are abstracted away from the world map? if that's the case, isn't there no caravan raiding in adventure mode? (apart from abstracted away caravan raiding, that is)

It hasn't been implemented yet, but it's planned:

Quote
Adventurer Role: Trader
    [...]
    * World economy
          [...]
          o Replace dwarf mode generated caravans with actual caravans
          o Improved dwarf mode trade agreements
    * Ability to lead a trade caravan
          o Ability to load stuff onto pack mules
          o Ability to hire bodyguards
          o Wagon/wagon teams (might do some teleportation travel with them to avoid annoyances for now)
          o Being able to trade from wagons, large markets might have people to move objects more quickly
    [...]
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Psieye

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #2380 on: December 03, 2010, 12:13:37 pm »

Those maps are pretty interesting. The different colours seem to depict different types of civilizations.
Are the purple cities dark fortresses? Does that mean the goblins actually trade this time?
Seems to me goblins are also using sprawl of sorts to keep their fortresses fed. Also, I do hear that even back in 40d it was possible for goblins to trade. These lines represent POTENTIAL trade routes so it's more likely that most of the time they won't actually trade.

Toady, will player built fortresses need to pay attention to the trade network to get caravans? As in, will the embark screen point out stuff like "no human town is close enough to you to send caravans"?
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TurnpikeLad

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #2381 on: December 03, 2010, 12:50:14 pm »

These new trade routes are amazing.  It'd be great if Tarn sat down with a historian and discussed how these things usually form and sustain themselves in real life.

It seems like there's a maximum distance between "hubs" beyond which there will be no trade... look at the isolated little group of cultures in the far right of medium region 1.  I understand the typical hamlet/town trade, where raw materials come in to the city and then finished goods go back out, but when it comes to trade between city hubs I wonder what criteria the game uses to decide where to set one up and what those cities are going to be trading.  For example, if that little country on the other side of the world has some rare kind of plant or metal, will cultures eventually set up a much longer trade route?  Will cultures that trade directly to faraway lands, cutting out the middleman, get a better deal on the merchandise than cultures that rely on an extended trade network where distant goods must change hands many times?

Also, I wonder how trade routes are set up in world gen, how static they are over time.  Are they recalculated every year, or every century?  If a town expands its hamlets and gains access to a kind of resource, will it cease its trade with a distant town which previously was providing them that resource?  Is there a concept of discovery, where a culture might have too little information about another culture and so would not be able to trade with them, or are all cultures assumed to be aware of the relative availability and value of goods all over the world?

This stuff is just really interesting to me.
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TurnpikeLad

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #2382 on: December 03, 2010, 12:55:50 pm »

Oh yeah, I also can't wait to see what the NPC dwarven hamlets and fortresses will look like now.
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Mephansteras

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #2383 on: December 03, 2010, 01:29:53 pm »

Hmm. Some of the hamlets don't seem to connect to anything. Are those ruins, or just isolated hamlets?
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monk12

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #2384 on: December 03, 2010, 01:34:23 pm »

Does the simulation account for the value of the goods being traded when determining the length of trade routes? Does the simulation account for how risky the trade route would be when trading, and do trade routes that regularly lose their caravans "dry up?"

It's one thing to go over the mountain and across the sea for the same leather and metals you could get at home- its quite another to do so for an extremely rare material, like Silk and Spices in the Far East for a real world example. Similarly, rampant piracy can shut down even the most lucrative of trade routes, while simultaneously driving up prices due to the reduced supply. Sometimes the increased risk even makes the prices go up so much that the route is more valuable than before, and so continues to be used- look up the Greek Pirates in the Roman Empire before the Romans got sick of their shit.
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