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[Fniff]

Things I liked about APB:

I liked the character creation system, and I liked the fact that the players were always the driving force and that without the right number of players, the game wouldn't work properly. I think you could basically play WoW without needing more players then your average guild.

[PTTG??]

There are two great absurdities in MMO design today; firstly, the more defensible separation of storyline and gameplay that brings about such strange things as a newly-minted character of a young knight being unable to ride a horse for quite some time, or of someone finding a hat but being unable to wear it due to being insufficiently experienced.

The second and more problematic absurdity is that every player will do the same quest repeatedly; the world is saved, yes, but it is saved again and again by different people who do the same things. Several times an hour, a small group of heroes changes through the gates of the Dark Castle weilding the ONE TRUE BLADE OF KRANDOOR- which appears to exist in quatum supposition with the thousands of other copies of that blade in the hands of other heroes- then they strike down the Dark Lord in a mighty battle consisting of standing in front of him swinging a sword for several minutes. The land is saved again and the villian utterly and irrevocably destroyed until the next group comes in five minutes later. And despite being killed a thousand times over, new characters will still face the devious feind's legions and see the works of the Dark Lord themselves just the same.

Simply put, the problem with MMOs is that they aren't actually massively multiplayer; you might play with a few close friends, but your interactions with strangers boil down to you seeing them hack into wildlife in the distance, and them swearing at you in a poor aproximation of the english language.

We recall a shared vision of "cyberspace" when internet connectivity first started to reach the mainstream. In this vision, the virtual worlds we inhabited were extremely open-ended, and notably, ones that we could have permanent effects on.

Further, the characters players dream to create are not merely new faces for the same old cast of characters. Few players truely want to select one of a set of fixed background stories, with a predetermined adventure ahead of him. And yet now, every new character in an MMO seems to be stamped out of one mold or another, the only difference being a few cosmetic differences.

MMO combat too is dreary. Not only is progression reliant on the constant whir of grinding, but combat itself is only remotely attached to the player's actions. In essense, the writers determine what your character will say, and the game designers determine what they will do. The player is effectively only allowed input when they select the character's name. Progress Quest's creator would be proud.

I propose this MMO- something I hope you will find to be different from the norm.

The setting is a group of humans transplanted to some harsh alien setting; a desert or icy distant planet, or some strange space-based construction. Despite the science-fiction setting, the world itself is mundane, for the human colonists were plucked out of today, with no advanced scientific knowledge or even very many tools. In this harsh place, they have to collect the very scarce resources and use them to survive and thrive. Not only will they progress their character, they will advance their group, building things and collecting resources they will share.

Building is abstract- there are specfic structures the players can build which require some kind of basic item (to build a forge, players must find or make an anvil, for instance). Also required is a deal of energy- gathered by fighting the various enemies and sometimes by burning fuels and such.

Energy is liquid and temporary- it constantly enters the system and is expended. Objects such as computers and anvils and weapons and so on are tightly limited, as are resources used to make them.

Even weapons have a very limited presense- a sword may be dropped, but someone else may pick it up. They cannot be permanently created or destroyed; one might take an anvil and melt it for metal, but there's only so many tons of each basic material and basic components, and that metal may soon enough be used for tools elsewhere.

Character advancement is also quite different; you will not become attached to a character. Life is cheap, and death is permanent. Those who have played rougelike games will be familiar with the concept. This is compensated for by the fact that characters do not become much more powerful over time- instead, they become more specialized. When you create a character, you select one of a small variety of classes. They might include Soldier, Crafter, Farmer and perhaps a small spectrum of other very wide classes. If you select Soldier, your next step might be to pick a particular weapon to specialize in. As you work- defending your settlement, going on the attack, and even simply serving as a guard on a peaceful caravan trip- you gain experience. This accrues much faster than in other games, and soon you gain the option to specialize. Maybe you learn to be an expert Sniper, or how to use some kind of heavy explosive. Once you select this pecialty, your character gains some new strength, in many cases a totally unique ability, but gains potentially new weaknesses as well.

[werty892]

I think you would like Haven and Hearth.

Something I've wanted to see for a long time.  An FPS deathmatch where your only weapons are a grappling hook, portal gun, gravity gun, and the environment. 

With extremely high speed movement.

[hemmingjay]

I came up with a game design last night. It's called Locked In.

It's set in a mansion that is loaded with valuables. 8 Guests and two inspectors are locked in for a "night". The thieves have to steal a certain number of objects and hide them in their "cache" spot without being caught. However, there is a camera system that inspectors can tap into(but can also be temporarily disabled). Inspectors can work together and have a to way radio, so they can work together on foot or one in a video booth guiding the other, or both alone.
Thieves randomly leave evidence behind but can decrease the odds temporarily through mechanics like wearing gloves, however, gloves only last for 45 seconds and are then visible hanging out of their pocket for 1 minute(necessary mechanic for balance). There are a series of tools that can be used but there is always a counter balance. For example, a thief wears gloves to avoid leaving fingerprints but then an inspector sees them walking with gloves out of their pocket and follows them to their cache and busts them.

I've got a lengthy design document but I imagine it will take me years to balance everything better.

[Xantalos]

PTTG:
I remember reading a short story kinda similar to yours. It was basically where the players got dropped onto (virtual) Mars with basically nothing but a few tools and were able to build a functionin economy around it.

[Tsuchigumo550]

I'd like a game based around Pokemon's Underground from Gen 4 fleshed out to be more than just a feature.

Imagine a three-tiered gameplay setup. Stage one is a prep stage, player interaction is limited to small amounts of sabotage and petty theft, as everyone gathers riches and materials while researching tricks, traps, and trials for the enemy to go through. You'll immediately begin hoarding treasures and plotting the demise of your enemy, all while gaining bonuses for it- every item of treasure you dig up has two effects. The first is the effect it has when it's in your armory, generally a very small or weak upgrade to your base, depending on item (those you can't equip have better boosts) and a different effect when equipped on your person. A ring might add 1% trap activation speed for your base, and would give you +5% chance to not activate traps. The downside? Dying on enemy territory drops all your equipped items on their field.

Once all the resources have been collected in the time frame allotted, you build your horde to drive enemies out and keep the loot coming. Monster spawners, hidden doors, spike traps, slippery floors, Rube Goldberg components, high explosives, fake treasure rooms, puzzle doors, tripwire alarms, Indiana Jones boulder traps... And that's just the design elements.

Finally, there's the Combat round. Combat still allows you to build, change, re-arm, and upgrade traps, however you must now be inside your horde and you'll be vulnerable doing it. Now's the time you need to go thieving!

---

A similar working is Station, an idea based around Space Station 13 meets The Purge meets Gundam.

Players take turns designing stations and attack fleets. Stations have control of where the entrances are (there are limits, as they can only be so close to each other and cannot directly connect to the same hall) and where their Bridge is, the enemy target. They must place workplaces strategically, and choose defense mechanisms to stop the enemy advance. Player characters can choose their role similar to SS13, but so can enemies now. For instance:

The Station Crew has built a station where the three entrances all connect to hallways near the front of the vessel that connect early but stay branched, with maintenance shafts between the halls and off to the sides of the ship. Security is close to the bridge and Medical, Science on the opposite side of Medical, and then more civilian and service jobs off closer to entry points.

The enemy has decided to warp-drive in close by and launch each member in a combat hardsuit. This takes a good number of points and each member is not well armed outside of their suit, only able to take a favored weapon and ballistics or antishock armor. This leads to a late alarm being raised as the attack is very sudden, and defense mechanisms lock onto the ship rather than the hardsuits. One is lost when closing into the entrance, but the attackers are very successful in landing. The hardsuits immediately scramble, anything with range taking the main hallways as other hardsuits take the maintenance tunnels. Internal lockout systems start to come online, but as they had no time to prime, are either torn through or simply too late. Knowing this, all available assets have been stockpiled around Security, the scientists and medics preparing some scientific weapons (special grenades being the most common as well as upgrades to weapons) for the security crew. Able to build a couple of weak EMP grenades, they prepare for their last stand.

And the hardsuits rip through the last blast door. Meeting them are two EMP proximity mines, immediately disabling most of the forward force and forcing the survivors to take a new route. Those who didn't die by sudden electrocution were taken out by the security crew, and there's a brief silence.

Suddenly, the maintenance doors explode outward as the secondary force backed up by the couple of surviving suits pincer the security force. Their fortifications are destroyed but the suits are rendered inoperable due to damage. Both sides have few people and supplies left.

The last assault on the bridge begins. Using an immobile but functioning suit, the attackers blast a hole in the side of the Bridge. Ballistic fire cuts down one operative as the others scramble for cover.

The attackers send out someone with ballistic armor, to use some of the near-depleted laser rifles to soften up the enemy guard as the others move closer. Hopping from cover to cover, they get close enough for tandem knife-fights to break out. The bar-brawl like chaos ensues as the last of the Security force fires from the windows, hitting an anti-shock troop and killing him. The attackers are down to two members, and rush madly to the bridge. Only one makes it through the hole in the wall, but none reach their objective. The last remaining Security member is the last man alive in the entire sector.

[Mesa]

A first-person shooter which is a combination of Team Fortress' 2 emerging, class-based gameplay, Cortex Command's aesthetic and setting and Cataclysm's: DDA bionics system. (dumbed down slightly, since I doubt that scent vision or integrated toolset would be useful beyond Spy or Engineer).

[itisnotlogical]

A new Jedi Knight game, made using a new engine that completely replicates the feeling of Jedi Outcast/Academy with better graphics and more Force powers. I would kill to see the original series of films rendered in a Jedi Knight game.

[SalmonGod]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

There are two great absurdities in MMO design today; firstly, the more defensible separation of storyline and gameplay that brings about such strange things as a newly-minted character of a young knight being unable to ride a horse for quite some time, or of someone finding a hat but being unable to wear it due to being insufficiently experienced.

The second and more problematic absurdity is that every player will do the same quest repeatedly; the world is saved, yes, but it is saved again and again by different people who do the same things. Several times an hour, a small group of heroes changes through the gates of the Dark Castle weilding the ONE TRUE BLADE OF KRANDOOR- which appears to exist in quatum supposition with the thousands of other copies of that blade in the hands of other heroes- then they strike down the Dark Lord in a mighty battle consisting of standing in front of him swinging a sword for several minutes. The land is saved again and the villian utterly and irrevocably destroyed until the next group comes in five minutes later. And despite being killed a thousand times over, new characters will still face the devious feind's legions and see the works of the Dark Lord themselves just the same.

Simply put, the problem with MMOs is that they aren't actually massively multiplayer; you might play with a few close friends, but your interactions with strangers boil down to you seeing them hack into wildlife in the distance, and them swearing at you in a poor aproximation of the english language.

We recall a shared vision of "cyberspace" when internet connectivity first started to reach the mainstream. In this vision, the virtual worlds we inhabited were extremely open-ended, and notably, ones that we could have permanent effects on.

Further, the characters players dream to create are not merely new faces for the same old cast of characters. Few players truely want to select one of a set of fixed background stories, with a predetermined adventure ahead of him. And yet now, every new character in an MMO seems to be stamped out of one mold or another, the only difference being a few cosmetic differences.

MMO combat too is dreary. Not only is progression reliant on the constant whir of grinding, but combat itself is only remotely attached to the player's actions. In essense, the writers determine what your character will say, and the game designers determine what they will do. The player is effectively only allowed input when they select the character's name. Progress Quest's creator would be proud.

I propose this MMO- something I hope you will find to be different from the norm.

The setting is a group of humans transplanted to some harsh alien setting; a desert or icy distant planet, or some strange space-based construction. Despite the science-fiction setting, the world itself is mundane, for the human colonists were plucked out of today, with no advanced scientific knowledge or even very many tools. In this harsh place, they have to collect the very scarce resources and use them to survive and thrive. Not only will they progress their character, they will advance their group, building things and collecting resources they will share.

Building is abstract- there are specfic structures the players can build which require some kind of basic item (to build a forge, players must find or make an anvil, for instance). Also required is a deal of energy- gathered by fighting the various enemies and sometimes by burning fuels and such.

Energy is liquid and temporary- it constantly enters the system and is expended. Objects such as computers and anvils and weapons and so on are tightly limited, as are resources used to make them.

Even weapons have a very limited presense- a sword may be dropped, but someone else may pick it up. They cannot be permanently created or destroyed; one might take an anvil and melt it for metal, but there's only so many tons of each basic material and basic components, and that metal may soon enough be used for tools elsewhere.

Character advancement is also quite different; you will not become attached to a character. Life is cheap, and death is permanent. Those who have played rougelike games will be familiar with the concept. This is compensated for by the fact that characters do not become much more powerful over time- instead, they become more specialized. When you create a character, you select one of a small variety of classes. They might include Soldier, Crafter, Farmer and perhaps a small spectrum of other very wide classes. If you select Soldier, your next step might be to pick a particular weapon to specialize in. As you work- defending your settlement, going on the attack, and even simply serving as a guard on a peaceful caravan trip- you gain experience. This accrues much faster than in other games, and soon you gain the option to specialize. Maybe you learn to be an expert Sniper, or how to use some kind of heavy explosive. Once you select this pecialty, your character gains some new strength, in many cases a totally unique ability, but gains potentially new weaknesses as well.

I have been making the exact same points and proposing the exact same solutions for years.  Somewhere much further back in the thread, I proposed a zombie mmo with many of the same game mechanics as your idea.

I just don't think the business will allow for a game like this to happen.  It would require a mature community, which doesn't bring in much money.

[MoLAoS]

Personally I love the fact that combat is not tied to twitch based skill. After all 90% of gameplay is based on things games don't simulate and systems that don't work in modern society. For instance any knowledge based content will either be extremely hard or just be cancelled by the internet. You cannot create a game which simulates the traditional idea of magic concretely. Things like mental acuity, mental agility, and concentration are not suited to computer simulations.

I actually did develop a magic system that would counter the bizarre incentives of the real world on the in game magic economy once. For a world where magic was rare and powerful. Although it could be somewhat replaced by, but alternatively complemented by, science/crafting.

Twitch based gaming unfairly excludes people who are more skilled in mental activities because you can't simulate mental activities. And thusly if you try to cater to twitch players they will get pissed at magic that works like standard mmo magic since there is no "skill" involved in magical combat. And similarly for science based activities.

[SalmonGod]

There should be more variety along a spectrum between twitch gameplay and 'press button to watch character fight'.  The exclusion works both ways.

And I think there are plenty of more interesting ways to handle things, too.  A game with twitchy combat could still make room for intelligent players to fill in less combat-intensive roles.  The ideal of an MMO should be that proper organization and social dynamics are every bit as important to the game as combat ability.  I understand that most people want to be involved in combat, so that's a difficult idea to implement.  So really I'd just be happy with combat being more dynamic in general.  It doesn't have to be fast-paced and reflex-oriented.  Just make it less about raw numbers, and more about interesting decisions and interactions.

[WillowLuman]

-snip-

Ever played DayZ? It's in Alpha stages right now, but it's already very much like what you described, albeit in a zombie apocalypse setting.

For combat scale, well, would the twitchier end of the scale be things like the 3D Zelda games and Dark Souls/Demon's Souls?

[SalmonGod]

I honestly don't understand how people play DayZ.  I tried, but it just felt too horribly broken in every way.  I appreciate what it's trying to do, but it seems like it has a very long way to go.

[WillowLuman]

I honestly don't understand how people play DayZ.  I tried, but it just felt too horribly broken in every way.  I appreciate what it's trying to do, but it seems like it has a very long way to go.

I'll agree, I can't stand it right now, as it's just too damn buggy. However, it seems like it's shaping up to play like an MMO version of DF adventure mode.

[MoLAoS]

There should be more variety along a spectrum between twitch gameplay and 'press button to watch character fight'.  The exclusion works both ways.

And I think there are plenty of more interesting ways to handle things, too.  A game with twitchy combat could still make room for intelligent players to fill in less combat-intensive roles.  The ideal of an MMO should be that proper organization and social dynamics are every bit as important to the game as combat ability.  I understand that most people want to be involved in combat, so that's a difficult idea to implement.  So really I'd just be happy with combat being more dynamic in general.  It doesn't have to be fast-paced and reflex-oriented.  Just make it less about raw numbers, and more about interesting decisions and interactions.

Less combat intensive roles would still have to be as interesting as combat ones.

The problem with intelligence is that it can be farmed out to the internet. Twitchy-ness in games is immediate and in the moment and you can't replace it. Well aimbots but those are cheating.

Now look at any game and point to me where the immediate in the moment decisions are for people using their minds. Mapmaking? Done for you cause combat players whine. Economics? Auction house because combat players hate local economies. And if you didn't do that then players would just make map and quest wikis because they don't want to use their minds.

Anything that will engage the minds of non twitch players gets in the way of twitch players only doing twitch type things. Its a zero sum game.

If you read MMORPG.com you can see the legions of combat focused players whining incessantly about crafting or exploring or w/e. They won't stand for it.

All the games I enjoy playing have a LONG time between cause and effect. The "battle" is decided long before combat commences. You plan ahead imagining what could go wrong and trying to counter it.

You constantly hear the twitchers whining about how RPGS have battles that are basically decided by your character development rather than in fight decisions. This is actually how real battles are decided.