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[Ivefan]

If you feel like weaponizing water, Ice is a popular choice- firing sharp ice like shotgun pellets, coating a battlefield in it, freezing armor (which is really quite unpleasant if you're still wearing it,) so on and so forth. Water also rusts, which has obviously detrimental effects on iron weapons and armor. Lacking an Air school, Water also does well for causing storms and other weather effects. And a final thought, Water magic tends to play a role in divination magics, for settings that don't have that as a separate school, or being fulfilled by Air instead.

Yeah - I was actually currently thinking of getting away from the ice option, but I totally agree with you on storms, diversions, rusting, etc. I think ice has been done far more than water (precisely because, as you say, it's an obvious way to weaponize it) so I'm interested in whether water per se can prove useful

Ice isn't water magic per say in my opinion. Although you are using water as a base component, making ice would belong to another branch and even though it might sound strange at first it's closer to pyromancy(in this case) than Hydromancy.
Why? Pyromancy is fire and fire is Heat. Ice requires a lack of heat. Draw the heat from the water to somewhere else and you get ice.
Using the same principles you could in theory drain the bodyheat from half of your foes to get the heat to combust the other half... Well, less than half due to needing more heat than one body can provide to ignite another one.

URR, Try decide upon one general principle/rule that dictates a magic type and from there you can start branching out with ideas that apply under said rule.

Yep; and while there WILL be horrific deaths out there, I think since you're likely to be fighting in a force much of the time, I'd like to keep combat realism high while trying to reduce the number of truly sudden, unexpected deaths. Somehow.

Sudden and unexpected deaths isnt necessarily unfair. If you go stand in the frontlines in a charge against giants you have yourself to blame. If one is standing in the back and directing ones forces there isn't much that would could happen and you can do a risk calculation simply.
Okay, So you were unfortunately standing in the wrong spot as a dragon swept over your forces, coughing fire. Or that catapult stone bounced one time too many and your character was provided with a rather modest gravestone.
But the thing is, you can dismiss the risk 99.9% of the time and if it actually happens... well, just don't fuck with dragons without a water barrel to hide in.

[monk12]

If you feel like weaponizing water, Ice is a popular choice- firing sharp ice like shotgun pellets, coating a battlefield in it, freezing armor (which is really quite unpleasant if you're still wearing it,) so on and so forth. Water also rusts, which has obviously detrimental effects on iron weapons and armor. Lacking an Air school, Water also does well for causing storms and other weather effects. And a final thought, Water magic tends to play a role in divination magics, for settings that don't have that as a separate school, or being fulfilled by Air instead.

Yeah - I was actually currently thinking of getting away from the ice option, but I totally agree with you on storms, diversions, rusting, etc. I think ice has been done far more than water (precisely because, as you say, it's an obvious way to weaponize it) so I'm interested in whether water per se can prove useful

Ice isn't water magic per say in my opinion. Although you are using water as a base component, making ice would belong to another branch and even though it might sound strange at first it's closer to pyromancy(in this case) than Hydromancy.
Why? Pyromancy is fire and fire is Heat. Ice requires a lack of heat. Draw the heat from the water to somewhere else and you get ice.
Using the same principles you could in theory drain the bodyheat from half of your foes to get the heat to combust the other half... Well, less than half due to needing more heat than one body can provide to ignite another one.

URR, Try decide upon one general principle/rule that dictates a magic type and from there you can start branching out with ideas that apply under said rule.

It really depends on how you choose to define things. For example, if Water magic is defined as the ultimate control over H₂0, then all you're doing to make Ice is forcing it into a crystalline formation, which would also have the interesting side effect of shedding a LOT of heat, very fast. You could theoretically burn rain-soaked victims this way. Similarly, taking liquid water and forcing it into Steam would actually cool the target- this is the basic reason sweating cools you down. Counterintuitive, maybe, but true.

As far as using liquid water directly as a weapon, well, water is pretty damn heavy. Not dense, maybe, but if you can keep it from splooshing everywhere you've got a pretty effective whip. Water would also make a versatile shield- it can obscure or completely hide the wielder, or mislead enemies (through clever use of diffraction- ever try to stab a fish from above-water?), slow down and redirect projectiles, etc. And, what happens if you combine water and earth? You get mud, and presumably a hydromancer would have some influence over it, though maybe not so dramatic as using the raw element.

Sorry to run at the mouth there, this kind of conversation is my meat and potatoes

[Biag]

If we're saying "ultimate" control, then don't forget how much influence you have over the weather. Enemy army on the march? Cast a spell that keeps the air around them nice and humid, and make sure no pesky clouds get in the way of the sun. Enemy general trying to give a rousing speech? Hide in the bushes and make his mouth so dry he can barely speak. Someone coming at you with a sword, but you don't want to injure them for whatever reason? Make their hand so slippery they drop the weapon. Your general went partying last night, but the forces of evil are nearby at 6 AM? Wake him up and instantly rehydrate him to get rid of the hangover.

[Ivefan]

Sorry to run at the mouth there, this kind of conversation is my meat and potatoes

I prefer pasta over potatoes.

True, watery mud might be controllable. But that all depends on whatever ruleset is being applied.
Perhaps the extent will be limited to just making the mud loose, or maybe you can't do anything because it falls under the domain of another type of magic.

[Ultima Ratio Regum]

Ice isn't water magic per say in my opinion. Although you are using water as a base component, making ice would belong to another branch and even though it might sound strange at first it's closer to pyromancy(in this case) than Hydromancy.
Why? Pyromancy is fire and fire is Heat. Ice requires a lack of heat. Draw the heat from the water to somewhere else and you get ice.
Using the same principles you could in theory drain the bodyheat from half of your foes to get the heat to combust the other half... Well, less than half due to needing more heat than one body can provide to ignite another one.

URR, Try decide upon one general principle/rule that dictates a magic type and from there you can start branching out with ideas that apply under said rule.

Yep; and while there WILL be horrific deaths out there, I think since you're likely to be fighting in a force much of the time, I'd like to keep combat realism high while trying to reduce the number of truly sudden, unexpected deaths. Somehow.

Sudden and unexpected deaths isnt necessarily unfair. If you go stand in the frontlines in a charge against giants you have yourself to blame. If one is standing in the back and directing ones forces there isn't much that would could happen and you can do a risk calculation simply.
Okay, So you were unfortunately standing in the wrong spot as a dragon swept over your forces, coughing fire. Or that catapult stone bounced one time too many and your character was provided with a rather modest gravestone.
But the thing is, you can dismiss the risk 99.9% of the time and if it actually happens... well, just don't fuck with dragons without a water barrel to hide in.

I see what you mean about water/ice. I think I'm interested in Hydromancy as manipulation of water (and therefore Pyromancy as manipulation of fire, and so on) more than explicitly weaponized versions. For instance, if you had a skilled Pyromancer in your force and you fought a Dragon, he might be able to bend the fire it breathed away towards a harmless location; similarly, a Hydromancer could calm an ocean, or try to wash a Kraken onto shore where it would be much easier to kill (Nethack style). And as you say; sudden deaths are fine if you're doing something daft, but the number of deaths when you take all appropriate precautions should be balanced so they aren't too common and annoying, but also not impossible, because otherwise every new foe you encounter will seem like a totally safe proposition.

It really depends on how you choose to define things. For example, if Water magic is defined as the ultimate control over H₂0, then all you're doing to make Ice is forcing it into a crystalline formation, which would also have the interesting side effect of shedding a LOT of heat, very fast. You could theoretically burn rain-soaked victims this way. Similarly, taking liquid water and forcing it into Steam would actually cool the target- this is the basic reason sweating cools you down. Counterintuitive, maybe, but true.

As far as using liquid water directly as a weapon, well, water is pretty damn heavy. Not dense, maybe, but if you can keep it from splooshing everywhere you've got a pretty effective whip. Water would also make a versatile shield- it can obscure or completely hide the wielder, or mislead enemies (through clever use of diffraction- ever try to stab a fish from above-water?), slow down and redirect projectiles, etc. And, what happens if you combine water and earth? You get mud, and presumably a hydromancer would have some influence over it, though maybe not so dramatic as using the raw element.

Sorry to run at the mouth there, this kind of conversation is my meat and potatoes

Don't worry about it, that's all really interesting! I think the water-as-shield idea is a really interesting one, but I think makes more sense for geomancy; perhaps the ability to raise and lower terrain, for instance, to both obstruct line of sight and provide tactical advantage. As you say, water could very easily knock people back and similar; I should probably start drawing up a list of ideas for each school...

If we're saying "ultimate" control, then don't forget how much influence you have over the weather. Enemy army on the march? Cast a spell that keeps the air around them nice and humid, and make sure no pesky clouds get in the way of the sun. Enemy general trying to give a rousing speech? Hide in the bushes and make his mouth so dry he can barely speak. Someone coming at you with a sword, but you don't want to injure them for whatever reason? Make their hand so slippery they drop the weapon. Your general went partying last night, but the forces of evil are nearby at 6 AM? Wake him up and instantly rehydrate him to get rid of the hangover.

I'm debating something very similar, which one could reasonably call 'tempestomancy' - ie control of weather. I'm sure if a lot of that wouldn't fall under hydromancy anyway, and some of it wouldn't be in sticking with a lot of the rest of the game, I think. I do like those ideas, but I think they're more of the individual-magic variety, not on the strategic level, though I do like the weather control/humidity one a lot!

True, watery mud might be controllable. But that all depends on whatever ruleset is being applied.
Perhaps the extent will be limited to just making the mud loose, or maybe you can't do anything because it falls under the domain of another type of magic.

Probably the latter, I think! Also, lastly, devblog entry appearing in a little while on the redoing of creature stats, and what stats creatures actually need to have in-game - a lot of the stats I originally gave creatures are no longer relevant, and a lot of new things have gone on the drawing board since then, too...

[Leatra]

[Quote pyramid, discussing if use of ice is Hydromancy or Pyromancy]

I think a combination of schools could be used in certain situtations like this. If you are trying to affect the heat of a liquid and move it, for example, Pyromancy and Hydromancy skill could be used but not at the same time. You can use your Pyromancy first and turn water into steam, and then use your Hydromancy and control the steam to create a distraction for your escape. Here, I just created a magic smoke bomb. If you fail at the Hydromancy check but succed at the Pyromancy check, you would still create a cloud of smoke but you couldn't control it.

This system would work very well for complex spells. A rough example:

1. Draw water from the sea nearby and lift it up in the air [Hydromancy check. Spell takes 5 seconds to cast] Fail, you can't control it.
2. Move it on top of the enemy forces [Hydromancy check. +10 seconds] Fail, water falls back to sea.
3. Turn water into ice and thus, rain ice on your enemies [Pyromancy check. +5 seconds] Fail, you simply created rain

That spellcasting time I mentioned is made up of course. I know it's turn based.

Why should spells take just one step, when you can have more control? You can add a step 4 to make the ice more sharper before it falls. Any combination you want. Possibilities are endless.

[Ultima Ratio Regum]

I think a combination of schools could be used in certain situtations like this. If you are trying to affect the heat of a liquid and move it, for example, Pyromancy and Hydromancy skill could be used but not at the same time. You can use your Pyromancy first and turn water into steam, and then use your Hydromancy and control the steam to create a distraction for your escape. Here, I just created a magic smoke bomb. If you fail at the Hydromancy check but succed at the Pyromancy check, you would still create a cloud of smoke but you couldn't control it.

This system would work very well for complex spells. A rough example:

1. Draw water from the sea nearby and lift it up in the air [Hydromancy check. Spell takes 5 seconds to cast] Fail, you can't control it.
2. Move it on top of the enemy forces [Hydromancy check. +10 seconds] Fail, water falls back to sea.
3. Turn water into ice and thus, rain ice on your enemies [Pyromancy check. +5 seconds] Fail, you simply created rain

That spellcasting time I mentioned is made up of course. I know it's turn based.

Why should spells take just one step, when you can have more control? You can add a step 4 to make the ice more sharper before it falls. Any combination you want. Possibilities are endless.

A multi-turn version is a great idea, as is the combination. I don't know how I'm going to have the different schools - and therefore different specialisms - play out, but I'm sure both you/the AI should be able to combine schools if appropriate or useful. And having multiple-turn spells would mean that they could be larger in scale and still allow for appropriate movement around their effects, too. I like it .

I also really like the idea of different effects if it fails at different points, too, like the rain example! As you say, the longer the spell spends 'building up' the better it would be, and there's no real reason to put that much of a limit on that. Every moment the opposing force spends not stopping the mage is time for the spell to improve. Of course, interrupting a mage in the middle of a complex spell might not have such a good effect...

Anyhoo, long before magic even makes an appearance, I'm pretty much redoing the creature system from scratch. It should be much more dynamic, changeable, sophisticated, and (importantly) realistic. Enjoy! This is the first of a series about creatures:

http://www.ultimaratioregum.co.uk/game/2012/01/24/building-a-creature-part-1/

[Nighthawk]

This is good - optimization is key when creating a game that will have a lot of content in the long term. The more streamlined you make it now, the less pain you'll have to deal with trying to add stuff in the future.

Also, to bring up a new topic, how much detail will the player receive in the midst of battle? There's a skill in DF... what's it called? Observation. That's it. The higher it is, the better you are at avoiding getting ambushed. However, observation in battle may be important, too. A good observer would watch not only his foe's weapon, but his face. His expression. Whether he is pained from injury, or demoralized from the sight of dead comrades.
For example, in the midst of battle, this message could occur:

You hack the spearman's upper right arm!
The spearman grimaces in pain. <-------

And on a simliar note, are you planning on finding a way to smooth the text that tells what is going on? Like so:

The dragon roars in agony.
The dragon collapses.

vs.

The dragon roars in agony and collapses. <---------- This is nicer.

These are just little things, and you don't have to get serious about them right now, but I'm just wondering what plans you have for them, if you have plans for them.

[monk12]

RE: Magic shenanigans- I've always like the ability to use magic in concert, especially since it can make for a very versatile magic system. Example- Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time book series. Magic is broken up into 5 elements (Air, Fire, Earth, Water, and Spirit,) and the spells are made of combinations of each element- for instance, Lightning is a combination of Fire and Air. The added wrinkle there is that some magic users are stronger with certain elements, making some more likely to turn the ground into lava geysers, or some more likely to bludgeon their foe with Air, or whatever.

The other example that sprang to mind (and perhaps more applicable to this discussion) was the webcomic Erfworld. For those not in the know, Erfworld is basically about a world based on a tabletop strategy game, hexes and all. I highly recommend it, and if you haven't read it then avoid the spoiler I'm about to reveal.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The end of Book 1 involves magic users of three different schools (the two most important being the Geomancy and Necromancy stand-ins) working in concert to awaken an inactive volcano, to the dismay of everything for several hexes around.

RE: Devblog- Is experience awarded solely for kills, or per attack, or per encounter, or what?

[Ultima Ratio Regum]

This is good - optimization is key when creating a game that will have a lot of content in the long term. The more streamlined you make it now, the less pain you'll have to deal with trying to add stuff in the future.

Also, to bring up a new topic, how much detail will the player receive in the midst of battle? There's a skill in DF... what's it called? Observation. That's it. The higher it is, the better you are at avoiding getting ambushed. However, observation in battle may be important, too. A good observer would watch not only his foe's weapon, but his face. His expression. Whether he is pained from injury, or demoralized from the sight of dead comrades.
For example, in the midst of battle, this message could occur:

You hack the spearman's upper right arm!
The spearman grimaces in pain. <-------

And on a simliar note, are you planning on finding a way to smooth the text that tells what is going on? Like so:

The dragon roars in agony.
The dragon collapses.

vs.

The dragon roars in agony and collapses. <---------- This is nicer.

These are just little things, and you don't have to get serious about them right now, but I'm just wondering what plans you have for them, if you have plans for them.

Good question; I think these things are really important. At the moment, all messages involving you are displayed by default, and you have full detail - if you wound an opponent, it will give you information about whether you cut them, or damaged the bone, or knocked off a limb, etc. Similarly if you are wounded. There's an option in the option menu which allows you to decide whether or not it will show messages about the rest of the combat you can see. As you're not omniscient, you can only get messages about other combat you can see, but if turned on, it will give you some (less) information about the rest of the battle around you. If not, you only see messages about your personal fights. Also, in large battles, you'll be able to dispatch a runner to get information from other parts of the battle and return to you with detail of how they're progressing. Also, agreed, and I have tried to combine two into one wherever possible!

RE: Magic shenanigans- I've always like the ability to use magic in concert, especially since it can make for a very versatile magic system. Example- Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time book series. Magic is broken up into 5 elements (Air, Fire, Earth, Water, and Spirit,) and the spells are made of combinations of each element- for instance, Lightning is a combination of Fire and Air. The added wrinkle there is that some magic users are stronger with certain elements, making some more likely to turn the ground into lava geysers, or some more likely to bludgeon their foe with Air, or whatever.

The other example that sprang to mind (and perhaps more applicable to this discussion) was the webcomic Erfworld. For those not in the know, Erfworld is basically about a world based on a tabletop strategy game, hexes and all. I highly recommend it, and if you haven't read it then avoid the spoiler I'm about to reveal.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The end of Book 1 involves magic users of three different schools (the two most important being the Geomancy and Necromancy stand-ins) working in concert to awaken an inactive volcano, to the dismay of everything for several hexes around.

RE: Devblog- Is experience awarded solely for kills, or per attack, or per encounter, or what?

Hmm, interesting - I think the combining magic idea is one that's definitely worth looking into (haven't read the Wheel of Time, but might at some point). I think things of the sort mentioned in the spoiler would be very cool to add. Experience comes from using a particular stat - doing something, whatever it is, raises whichever skills have an influence on it (for example, archery is Dexterity, Strength, and a little bit of Intelligence). When you kill something, the way you fought it then determines which of your five stats gain experience for its death. Basically, you have 5 central experience bars (though not visible on screen), one for each of the five basic stats, and they're raised by using them, and battling foes with them.

[Ivefan]

Hmm, interesting - I think the combining magic idea is one that's definitely worth looking into (haven't read the Wheel of Time, but might at some point).

My favorite series, started reading em when i was about 10 years old
The magic system in WoT is based on the fore mentioned five elements. The user then takes the components and 'weaves' them into a spellform.
Strength in the power defines simultaneous spells, the magnitude and partially range.
There's more rules to that than this, like affinity to one type, joining power etc.

Didn't even suggest this type of system as you seemed more inclined to strict powerhouse magics rather than this flexible one.

[Man of Paper]

I haven't really looked into this thread before now, and I regret it (the not looking bit). I wasn't introduced to roguelikes before I faceplanted into DF, and since then all the roguelikes I've played have kind of fallen short of the hopes and dreams DF jammed into my brainspace. Sure, Cataclysm, Nethack, and IVAN are fun, but none of them have the whole package: a robust combat system, a large open world, and glorious, glorious deaths. But this gem being developed here seems to be hitting on all my desires in a roguelike. If it were a woman I'd probably definitely propose.

You can expect my full attention from this point forward.

[Ultima Ratio Regum]

Hmm, interesting - I think the combining magic idea is one that's definitely worth looking into (haven't read the Wheel of Time, but might at some point).

My favorite series, started reading em when i was about 10 years old
The magic system in WoT is based on the fore mentioned five elements. The user then takes the components and 'weaves' them into a spellform.
Strength in the power defines simultaneous spells, the magnitude and partially range.
There's more rules to that than this, like affinity to one type, joining power etc.

Didn't even suggest this type of system as you seemed more inclined to strict powerhouse magics rather than this flexible one.

Interesting - does there have to be a difference between powerhouse and flexible systems? Well, maybe there does. Hmm.

I don't know, though - can magic not be kept rare, powerful and strategic, but also have more flexibility within it? I'm not sure how it would work from a coding perspective, nor from a gameplay one. I don't see why that would be that much tougher than creating a stricter but equally powerful magic system.

I haven't really looked into this thread before now, and I regret it (the not looking bit). I wasn't introduced to roguelikes before I faceplanted into DF, and since then all the roguelikes I've played have kind of fallen short of the hopes and dreams DF jammed into my brainspace. Sure, Cataclysm, Nethack, and IVAN are fun, but none of them have the whole package: a robust combat system, a large open world, and glorious, glorious deaths. But this gem being developed here seems to be hitting on all my desires in a roguelike. If it were a woman I'd probably definitely propose.

You can expect my full attention from this point forward.

Haha, well, thanks! Glorious deaths are definitely the order of the day at the moment, and will probably be even more so soon once I'm done adding in more creatures ...

Also, how many loading screens do you think there are in Skyrim? As in, how many segments of text? I can't find a total, but URR now has around 120, all of which are a paragraph, and the loading times are both pretty rare & short. I think it's a good compromise. I'll throw up a screenshot of a loading screen at some point. Also, a lot of the loading screens for each game are going to be procedurally-generated! More on this later...

[monk12]

Procedurally generated loading screens. Awesome.


RE: Magic Systems

The biggest difference between a flexible Rule Magic system and Whatevermancy is how difficult it is to implement and balance. Whatevermancy is very easy- you define a spell cost, and a specific effect, and you're done. The user has extremely limited power to alter the spell- no toning down a Fireball to light a cigarette, for example. A more flexible system would involve specifying a series of individual effects and modifications a magic user can cause, and then figuring out how they all interact with one another. This obviously makes it more difficult to balance, and more difficult for the AI to use intelligently.

If this was going to be more of an RPG, I'd encourage Rule Magic since learning the ins and outs of an internally consistent magic system is always great fun. Since this is a strategy game, I'd say Whatevermancy with specific spells and effects would be the way to go.

[Leatra]

I haven't really looked into this thread before now, and I regret it (the not looking bit). I wasn't introduced to roguelikes before I faceplanted into DF, and since then all the roguelikes I've played have kind of fallen short of the hopes and dreams DF jammed into my brainspace. Sure, Cataclysm, Nethack, and IVAN are fun, but none of them have the whole package: a robust combat system, a large open world, and glorious, glorious deaths. But this gem being developed here seems to be hitting on all my desires in a roguelike. If it were a woman I'd probably definitely propose.

You can expect my full attention from this point forward.

Also, how many loading screens do you think there are in Skyrim? As in, how many segments of text? I can't find a total, but URR now has around 120, all of which are a paragraph, and the loading times are both pretty rare & short. I think it's a good compromise. I'll throw up a screenshot of a loading screen at some point. Also, a lot of the loading screens for each game are going to be procedurally-generated! More on this later...

I don't know how many loading screens there are in Skyrim because CK isn't out yet but Oblivion definitely had less than 120. Procedurally generated loading screens are a good idea.

As long as we have a step-by-step magic system, I'm game. I'm glad you liked that idea. Only your imagination should be the limit when it comes to spellcasting, rather than the classic "cast x to make y" kinda spells.