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Author Topic: Dwarf Fortress meets The Outer Wilds? "Ultima Ratio Regum", v0.10.1 out Feb 2023  (Read 596320 times)

Scoops Novel

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - roguelike/Borges/Eco, v0.6 released!
« Reply #2415 on: March 14, 2015, 02:11:53 pm »

Have you got much feedback between the religions? Actually, is there much borrowing or reaction by one proc gen creation to another point blank?
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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - roguelike/Borges/Eco, v0.6 released!
« Reply #2416 on: March 14, 2015, 06:07:38 pm »

Looks amazing.
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Ultima Ratio Regum

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - roguelike/Borges/Eco, v0.6 released!
« Reply #2417 on: March 15, 2015, 05:25:28 am »

those altars looks so good its a shame you cant summon stuff from them :P

Haha! But perhaps some religions will believe that you can...?

Have you got much feedback between the religions? Actually, is there much borrowing or reaction by one proc gen creation to another point blank?

Interesting question. In some cases, yes, religions will hate each other, and I'm also working on a religion archetype where you have two religions who both believe in the same two gods, but worship different ones (e.g. gods of winter/summer, light/dark, etc). I hope to make this more detailed in the future, too, so have some deeper political interactions between religions beyond Religion A thinking Religion B are heretics/infidels/etc (though that's a good enough start for this release).

Looks amazing.

Thanks!
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Ultima Ratio Regum

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - roguelike/Borges/Eco, v0.6 released!
« Reply #2418 on: March 16, 2015, 08:30:58 am »

Come along to this year's Norwich Gaming Festival to hear my next public talk, "The Procedural Generation of Aesthetics and Culture"!

http://norwichgamingfestival.com/talks-events/
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Ultima Ratio Regum

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - roguelike/Borges/Eco, v0.6 released!
« Reply #2419 on: March 19, 2015, 02:43:03 pm »

Awesome piece from Rock, Paper, Shotgun about Dwarf Fortress, URR, and general procedural goodness! Enjoy:

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/03/19/dwarf-fortress-poetry-generation-matters/
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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - roguelike/Borges/Eco, v0.6 released!
« Reply #2420 on: March 19, 2015, 04:41:39 pm »

this... is... so.... pretty and awesome and ... ahhhhh i love it already.
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Servant Corps

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - roguelike/Borges/Eco, v0.6 released!
« Reply #2421 on: March 20, 2015, 10:10:10 am »

URR, I am planning to create a procedurally generated novel. I know this sounds stupid, but in High School, I remember reading a sci-fi story about a computer that ghostwritten novels. I thought it was cool. So that is what I want to do. Also, I may not have time to write a novel manually, so automating the process would be really neat.

I need to get this program done by the end of October so that it can be used for NaNo. (NaNo wants a blank manuscript in November 1st but you can do prep work before that time.)

I already downloaded a computer program that can create a functioning story outline for me, and already got some ideas for how to get it working. However, I need to know what I have to worry about when doing procedural generation. And since you are in the process of securing a PhD, you may be the best person to give me some pointers.

Right now, I think that procedural generation can help in arranging content but not actually creating new content unless you create a complex simulation (think Crusader Kings 2). So this means I have to create all the characters, write out different ways of interaction, create all the quotes, etc. Is there any way to reduce the workload, considering that I may write way too much content that may not actually appear in the final novel?

Any help would be greatly appericated.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2015, 10:11:52 am by Servant Corps »
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Ultima Ratio Regum

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - roguelike/Borges/Eco, v0.6 released!
« Reply #2422 on: March 21, 2015, 04:55:17 am »

this... is... so.... pretty and awesome and ... ahhhhh i love it already.

Ha, thanks! Glad you like it :).

URR, I am planning to create a procedurally generated novel. I know this sounds stupid, but in High School, I remember reading a sci-fi story about a computer that ghostwritten novels. I thought it was cool. So that is what I want to do. Also, I may not have time to write a novel manually, so automating the process would be really neat.

I need to get this program done by the end of October so that it can be used for NaNo. (NaNo wants a blank manuscript in November 1st but you can do prep work before that time.)

I already downloaded a computer program that can create a functioning story outline for me, and already got some ideas for how to get it working. However, I need to know what I have to worry about when doing procedural generation. And since you are in the process of securing a PhD, you may be the best person to give me some pointers.

Right now, I think that procedural generation can help in arranging content but not actually creating new content unless you create a complex simulation (think Crusader Kings 2). So this means I have to create all the characters, write out different ways of interaction, create all the quotes, etc. Is there any way to reduce the workload, considering that I may write way too much content that may not actually appear in the final novel?

Any help would be greatly appericated.

Whewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.

Ok, a few thoughts. Firstly: I think this is an interesting field, and not at all mad/daft. There was a competition about this recently (NaNoGenMo, something like that?) though I am unaware what the outcomes were or whether any remotely interesting/sane novels were generated (though one has to assume the answer was "no").

Hmm, what you have to worry about... I think the #1 thing is crappy generations. There are a huge number of rules in URR which examine what has been generated, compare it to some "guidelines" I programmed in, and then reject it if it isn't good enough. This obviously has clear implications for level design - need to make sure the entire level can be traversed, there are no areas blocked off, all that obvious stuff - but I also use it everywhere else. Religions which don't have any internal consistency are rejected; nomadic civilizations which are too small are rejected; all kinds of graphics/images are rejected if they won't look good enough; some religion icons are rejected if they look too similar to those already generated; ditto flags; etc etc etc. I think it is hugely important to have a system which can look at the results, judge if the results are "good enough" for your liking, then reject them and roll the dice again if the answer is no.

Secondly... well, "arranging" content and "creating" content are, I would argue, in a manner of speaking the same thing, but it depends on what resolution you look at. If you look at the entire world, URR clearly creates content; if you look at a specific item's lookup image, then maybe less so, since there's only so many variations I can code which the game then produces a combination of. I think that's a false dichotomy - it is better to maximize "creating" content as much as possible, but I think there are currently some things which can only be created by having the game piece together hand-made content. I try to avoid this, but sometimes I can't - the mansions in this week's update (coming later today), for instance, have a huge amount of variation, but all that variation is from piecing together handmade components, because I just couldn't create an algorithm which I liked the output of. But the "lower" a level you can add the handmade content, and the more the game/program can come up, the better the outcome will be. If you're PCG-ing a novel, and you write anything close to the full 50k words of handmade, then I think something has gone seriously wrong! With that said, I'm not really sure where I'd begin if I wanted to carry out the same task; but with THAT said, I do intend for URR to generate very short stories in near-future versions, so I suppose I'll be figuring that out pretty soon myself. Although I think concepts like this are an insult to literature and laughably reductionist, I'd look at things like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seven_Basic_Plots (not to mention that Booker himself is basically a joke) - because let's be honest, it is going to be a long time until AI can (if ever) generate anything as remotely meaningful/deep as the great works of literature, so as one's aim when generating a novel is to create something which "isn't meaningless", I'd look here to begin with. Hope this rambling helps!
« Last Edit: March 21, 2015, 04:57:02 am by Ultima Ratio Regum »
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Ultima Ratio Regum

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - roguelike/Borges/Eco, v0.6 released!
« Reply #2423 on: March 21, 2015, 11:04:29 am »

A vast, immense, terrifying update this week. A huge amount has been done in this past fortnight: almost everything required for 0.7 is finished except for some remaining procedural graphics and the last two remaining building interior algorithms, which I’m currently putting together. My intention/hope/plan is to release 0.7 on April 4th. My thesis defence is coming up very soon and I’m preparing for that, so I don’t know if I’ll be able to perfectly hit this deadline or not. In the mean time, though, bask in the ridiculous amount of new building generation! Though first, I must draw everyone’s attention to this year’s European IRDC which I’m hosting at the National Videogame Arcade. Please sign up if you’re planning to attend (http://www.ultimaratioregum.co.uk/game/irdc-2015/)! Now, onto the update.

Mansions, Part II

Firstly, I’ve finished the final set of mansions – the largest ones, found only in upper-class districts, and from which the player will begin their quest from 0.7 (or possibly 0.8 ) onwards (since the player is a lesser noble). Mansions of all sizes are among the more hand-made elements of the world; there are still many, many variations, but the algorithm which constructs them is more about piecing together and differentiating between a range of hand-made chunks, rather than the algorithmic placement of items, rooms, etc, but that’s just a necessity of the detail (and more importantly, logic/realism) I wanted from these: I tried several algorithms which just weren’t given me outcomes of the sort I wanted, so I’ve gone this way instead. There are ten shapes for the largest mansions; each shape has three different upper level layouts, three ground floor, and three basements, and each of these varies in turn according to colour scheme, table/chair placement, what room is used for what, and also another difference. If the mansion is the one the player starts in, the room in the middle of the ground floor below – containing the nine statues, in three sets of three – will contain nine things, be they paintings, statues, books, or something else, each of which will give you a single initial clue towards the nine items you need to uncover the locations of in the world. For this release, all nine are placeholder statues, but that room will be where you want to start.

Here’s an example of a ground floor and a top floor, with four bedrooms:





… and another (you simply must enlarge this one and look at it full-screen, just look at the flooring! The architecture! I am almost appalled by just how satisfied I am by how these mansions look):





… whilst the basements look much like they do for the smaller mansions, i.e. stone/wooden flooring (if servants’ quarters or slave quarters, respectively). On the upper floor, you will also be guaranteed to find one special item in all the upper bedrooms, which you may discover or be hinted towards by various means; however, although the player’s starting mansion will contain the nine initial clues (and other mansions won’t), it is other mansions which may contain special items in the chambers of the nobles in that family, whilst your “starting mansion” will not. Therefore, your starting mansion will get you going on the hunt, whilst other mansions – if you can find a way to gain access – may have things to aid you on your quest. You also see those empty rooms on the ground floor? A storage room, and an armoury, soon.

Officers’ Quarters

I’ve put in the generation algorithms for Officers’ Quarters, located in Military Districts in large cities. There will only ever be one per civilization, and will contain the highest-ranking military officials (and, next version, presumably a logically significant amount of protection); there’s always a decent number of 5×5 chambers, and then one larger chamber for the highest ranking military official in that army (whatever that may be). Here’s a reminder of how one of these buildings might look: flags and fountains for the nation in question will always be found outside, along with a reasonably ornate road pattern, and the OQ is generally either a “corner” shape, or a “trident” shape like the one below:



For the interiors I decided to use the ornate floor type again here, but once more in a visually distinct way; Officers’ Quarters will always have a “strip” of ornate flooring in the middle, and use ornate flooring in the bedrooms of the actual officers, but then will use stone flooring (the “second tier” floor type for interiors) for the rest of the building. The game places one from a large number of possible patterns of tables/chairs, and then places one from a long list of patterns of pillars/walls on top (deleting any tables/chairs that need to be deleted in the process!), and voila – you have the ground floor. So here we have three possible lower floors from another civilization to the one above, and three upper floors, in one shape:





The differences are small across a single “shape” of building, but across civilizations, building shapes, floor colours, we actually get a lot of variation, whilst (as ever) maintaining a clear visual style which denotes that these are Officers’ Quarters, and not anything else:



As above, in 0.8 you’ll be able to find the highest-ranking military officials here, but it will naturally be a location which is closely guarded. I’ve also worked on the generation of armouries in military districts, but since these are very “practical” buildings (i.e. not ornate in any way), and since weapons and armour and the like are not yet generating, they are not especially interesting! Likewise for warehouses in market districts; done, but currently empty. What is interesting, however, is arenas:

Arenas

Arena interiors now generate for arenas in feudal nations. The arena consists of three components; an overall building shape, of which there are several varieties; a shape for the central “arena” section (the section within the grey symbols, which can be seen through) and the location of various candle stands which keep the entire arena constantly lit, regardless of where the player is located; and then a pattern of chairs (of which there are many) which is then placed in any remaining tiles. The initial “lobby” leads to open doors that lead to the chairs, and also a locked door (which in 0.8 will be guarded) towards an interior area where contestants will get ready, and where you will be admitted to if you intend to fight within the arena. I also made a very rare alteration here: all the chairs have a randomized wood colour (based on woods in that climate zone, of course!) rather than just picking a single wood colour for the entire building, which I do for every other interior. I like the effect it produces. I have also added the code (currently unused) to sometimes spawn arenas which might have certain… environmental hazards. Here’s an example of one I explored:



I thought this gif was especially neat: step through the arena, talk to those in charge, decide to throw yourself into the ring, step out, and suddenly the arena opens up, lit through day and night by candles, and surrounded by (in 0.8 onwards!) a host of NPCs keen to watch the combat…



Also: want more gifs in future blog updates? I think you do, but let me know.

Galleries

Added gallery generation! These spawn in city centres and will always contain four procedurally-generated paintings (which will always contain tiny clues, cultural/historical information, etc). One issue was to distinguish this from the lower floors of Officers’ Quarters, so we can see four paintings (the white diamonds) and a pattern of chairs. I took the randomized chair colour idea from arenas and reapplied it here, and had the game place chairs in blocks or along diagonals at different distances from the walls. It’s very simple, but the main function of these buildings is simply to house paintings (and, in the future, relevant NPCs who can give you useful information) – they aren’t the most exciting, but they function. Painting generation coming soon.



Embassies

I’ve now developed the interiors for embassies. I wanted to make these very close-knit and very dense, so the game generates a number of closely-linked offices, picks a layout for tables/chairs within them, then generates. The ambassador’s office (the room with the upward staircase) will always contain a few items of note from their home nation, and the ambassador’s quarters can be found up the stairs.







Mints and Banks

The interiors of Mints and Banks are now generating! I once again found another variation on ornate/stone flooring: in this case ornate flooring runs around the exterior of the bank. The code is in place to spawn guards on each vault and a teller on the chairs/table in the middle, and will be used in 0.8. Here’s a bank as you will normally see it, with the vaults un-explored, and then the same bank after the player has (in later versions) found a way inside:



Mints, however, are rather more exciting now, though obviously also still lacking in actual, y’know, coinage. Whereas anyone will be able to enter banks, mints will obviously be under heavy guard, and some serious firepower or political might will be needed to gain entry. Here’s an example of a mint (with the same ornate-flooring-outline idea to aesthetically link them to banks) where none of the vaults have been opened:



…and here’s another one in another nation where the vaults (which will soon contain that sweet, sweet money) have all been opened:



The staircase in the middle leads down to an underground vault which will contain un-minted bars of gold/silver/whatever, and also probably some coin presses too. These areas will be much more lively come 0.8/0.9 once NPCs and trade are up and running (but also much harder to access!). I’ve also, lastly, temporarily removed currency exchanges from generating; I need to think very carefully about how those are going to work, and where they should be placed, and how that will interact with the player’s actions around the world, and how to avoid it becoming deeply annoying/grindy to switch currencies. I’m now thinking about a system where there are no currency exchange buildings, but rather individuals stationed at every city gate who can perform the service for you? I think that would be better.

Hunter Gatherers

All the interiors for hunter-gatherer civilizations now generate, though there really isn’t much to see here yet. I won’t be really focusing on these for a release or two, most likely. All the flooring in these buildings is the same as that outside, e.g. taiga, tundra, tropical, etc. You can wander in and look at the lovely doors, though:



Reliquaries, Incense Stands, Khachkars

This fortnight I’ve also created the procedurally-generated graphics for reliquaries. These are found in cathedrals only (i.e. only in one location per religion), and there will always be more reliquaries in a cathedral attached to a theocratic nation than one attached to any other kind of civilization. These all have a distinct symbol on the front which one might find elsewhere in the world. They’re quite ornate, and their graphics draw primarily on christian reliquary iconography, but also some sources from India, Japan, and Islamic art. They will naturally be locked by default, and – one assumes – well guarded, but will also contain things of either great use, or simply great value. Here are some examples:



I also did the graphics for incense stands in cathedrals and religious buildings – these can spawn instead of things like vases, gongs, statues, fountains, etc, and are just another kind of variation. Happy with the algorithm that puts these together: it’s fairly basic, but I think it looks good, and they’re very distinctive.



I have also added some very, very rare graves to nomadic citadels where only the absolute elites are worthy of burial (the rest are presumably disposed of somewhere else in the desert). For now, all of these graves are Khachkars since I only have time to create one algorithm for those and not for other grave types, but in 0.8 each nomadic civilization will have a different form of burial (cairns, stele, various other ideas). Naturally, all the symbols on this Khachkar might be important…



Some General Screenshots


Here are some nice general screenshots, though they both happen to be in cathedrals. Enjoy!





Next Week

There’s only really the remaining graphics left to do now. Things like reliquaries, finishing off all the tables/chairs/beds variations, and the like. There are also a few minor bugs that have arisen in 0.7’s development which I need to fix (primarily one involving external fixed sources of light), and I’m not really sure how long that one will take. I’m pushing for a release on the 4th – there are still a hefty number of small bugs and improvements I want to sort out, and I want a couple of days of playtesting beforehand to ensure I release the best possible version. My PhD defence is in the week starting the 6th, so depending on preparation, outcome, blah blah, the release might end a little after that. Hard to say. Either way, though, 0.7 is in its final stages! Which means the final worldbuilding release will be out in the next few weeks. Hype.
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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - roguelike/Borges/Eco, v0.6 released!
« Reply #2424 on: March 21, 2015, 11:33:03 am »

Oh man, URR. I love me some procedural generation! Definitely downloading 0.7 when it comes out. I'm also really interested in how you intend to implement Dark Souls-esque combat mechanics. I mean, Jesus, are you actively trying to make a game that caters to my every desire?

Have you given some thought as to how cultures mix and mutate? It's probably completely unfeasible to design such a complex system, but it'd be amazing if you could get hybrid faiths emerging like Manicheanism, dynamic heresies emerging and splitting of into their own faiths, or just loan words being introduced to languages. Heck, you could use this to make cultures change to the point that visiting old buildings or ruins actually has an archaeological feel to it (if only in my fantasies).

Keep up the good work!
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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - roguelike/Borges/Eco, v0.6 released!
« Reply #2425 on: March 21, 2015, 12:47:03 pm »

I remember when this was still a roguelike pertaining to large-scale combats.  :(
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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - roguelike/Borges/Eco, v0.6 released!
« Reply #2426 on: March 21, 2015, 02:23:55 pm »

I remember when this was still a roguelike pertaining to large-scale combats.  :(
it could be a future adition once all the cultural/historic stuff is finished
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Servant Corps

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - roguelike/Borges/Eco, v0.6 released!
« Reply #2427 on: March 21, 2015, 10:09:06 pm »

Hope this rambling helps!
It did, thanks. I will be sure to come up with tests to filter out gibberish, although I will wait until I create a generator that does produce gibberish.  :P I will also try to reduce the amount of hand-crafted "creation" as possible, though I am less confident it would be possible (you did have to handcraft parts of that mansion, after all).

I admit taking a look at Booker and his reductionist ilk, but surpisingly, they are actually too vague! You still need to create characters, determine the setting, and figure out how to flow from one phase to another. Luckily, as I mentioned before, I already found a story outline generator that is specific enough for my tastes. This generator claims to have over 32,000 possibilities, so you could probably use it for a while without getting bored sick (you can only handle so many variations of the "Hero's Journey"). The name of the program is "Dramatica", by the way, if you are interested. It has a free demo which can allow you to try the program out and create your outline! You just cannot save, export, or print it out.

Edit: Even "Dramatica" has limitations (in terms of how to structure "scenes" in a novel), so I have to also use Dwight Swain’s ideas about Motiviation-Reaction Units and Scenes/Sequels (I am using this summary of Dwight Swain’s ideas). Anyway, if I actually get some useful progress with this generator, I will try to give an update somehow.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2015, 10:25:07 pm by Servant Corps »
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Ultima Ratio Regum

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - roguelike/Borges/Eco, v0.6 released!
« Reply #2428 on: March 22, 2015, 07:07:12 am »

Oh man, URR. I love me some procedural generation! Definitely downloading 0.7 when it comes out. I'm also really interested in how you intend to implement Dark Souls-esque combat mechanics. I mean, Jesus, are you actively trying to make a game that caters to my every desire?

Have you given some thought as to how cultures mix and mutate? It's probably completely unfeasible to design such a complex system, but it'd be amazing if you could get hybrid faiths emerging like Manicheanism, dynamic heresies emerging and splitting of into their own faiths, or just loan words being introduced to languages. Heck, you could use this to make cultures change to the point that visiting old buildings or ruins actually has an archaeological feel to it (if only in my fantasies).

Keep up the good work!

Ha, yes, that is actually my exact goal! Re: DS, I'm focusing on the idea of movesets; on different moves taking different periods of time; and of different moves cutting across different tiles. So, for instance, let's say that with Sword X, you know Move Y will cover the following tiles:

Code: [Select]
.  .  .  .  .

.  >  +  <  .

.  .  @  .  .

.  .  .  .  .

.  .  .  .  .

where '>' means it'll hit an enemy on that tile on their right, a '+' means it'll be a torso hit, and '<' means it'll hit an enemy there on their left arm (and maybe 'S' means 2x damage to shield, v means hitting legs, ^ means hitting heads, and then imagine all the possible combinations of these moves and where they hit on different tiles and the complexity that creates). Extend that to dozens of weapons, dozens of different "patterns" of hits, and different timings for attacks, and you get the kind of system I intend to implement. No "bump to attack". I think this'll turn into a very interesting and very complex bit of decision-making to plan your attacks based on where foes are, where they're already damaged, what weapons/timings they have (and shields up/down will matter a lot), etc.

As for the other stuff: I am pleased to say heresies are already in this version! In a basic form, admittedly, and once things like holy books are generating I'll make them more complex, but they're there. I have plans for syncretic religions in the future (and also looser diasporic religions), and I think that archaeological feel would be bloody great if I can do it!

I remember when this was still a roguelike pertaining to large-scale combats.  :(
it could be a future adition once all the cultural/historic stuff is finished

Ehhhhhhhhhhh. A huge number of games do that, but no game does the kind of "cultural detective work" (??) gameplay I'm aiming at here. When it's a many, many-year project, you have to go with what interests you! Though it is possible wars and conflicts and things will appear much later, but I can't promise that.

It did, thanks. I will be sure to come up with tests to filter out gibberish, although I will wait until I create a generator that does produce gibberish.  :P I will also try to reduce the amount of hand-crafted "creation" as possible, though I am less confident it would be possible (you did have to handcraft parts of that mansion, after all).

I admit taking a look at Booker and his reductionist ilk, but surpisingly, they are actually too vague! You still need to create characters, determine the setting, and figure out how to flow from one phase to another. Luckily, as I mentioned before, I already found a story outline generator that is specific enough for my tastes. This generator claims to have over 32,000 possibilities, so you could probably use it for a while without getting bored sick (you can only handle so many variations of the "Hero's Journey"). The name of the program is "Dramatica", by the way, if you are interested. It has a free demo which can allow you to try the program out and create your outline! You just cannot save, export, or print it out.

Edit: Even "Dramatica" has limitations (in terms of how to structure "scenes" in a novel), so I have to also use Dwight Swain’s ideas about Motiviation-Reaction Units and Scenes/Sequels (I am using this summary of Dwight Swain’s ideas). Anyway, if I actually get some useful progress with this generator, I will try to give an update somehow.

Ha, well, indeed, a gibberish generator is always the first step! Yeah, I think there are some parts where you have to hand-make; I mean, I know I could have created a mansion generator, but a) it would have taken so long, and b) the results would have likely been barely different from a more hand-made generator, that it just didn't seem sensible.

I wasn't aware of that re: Booker, but that's actually quite amusing; interesting re: the others, though. When I come to do it I'll be writing it from scratch, though I'm sure I'll look at other generators to get an idea of what's possible, what they do right, where they go wrong, etc. I'd be very interested to see what you can come up with too!
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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - roguelike/Borges/Eco, v0.6 released!
« Reply #2429 on: March 22, 2015, 01:14:34 pm »

I remember when this was still a roguelike pertaining to large-scale combats.  :(

To be honest, this is kind of putting me off too. URR is really passionate about the work he is doing so I have no doubt the final product will be nothing less of awesome. But the game changed too much for my taste. I remember a few pages ago where even totally scrapping combat was discussed briefly but thankfully that didn't go anywhere. I will definitely keep checking this topic and play the crap out of it though. I guess I'll forever search for that "roguelike(M&B: Warband+Crusader Kings 2)" kind of game. I guess DF will get there... after a couple of decades maybe.

I understand that feeling where you simply want to create a product you want to create. When you start creating something solely for others and lose your passion about it, that's when something you love doing becomes a torment for you and the quality of your work starts looking for a cliff to jump off of.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2015, 02:22:30 pm by Leatra »
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