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Author Topic: My Little Pony, Friendship Is Magic  (Read 216635 times)

BowlSoldier

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Re: My Little Pony, Friendship Is Magic
« Reply #480 on: October 26, 2011, 04:52:02 pm »

4 Since these are the classic gold hoarding Dragons, they are likely quite terratorial about their gold with other dragons, making spike more of a liability than a help and come on people you're looking too deeply into this.

Seriously people? Dragon slaves? Dragon slaves. I don't know how many times I can keep telling you guys this, this is a children's show targeted to young girls, do you really think Lauren Faust made spike a character because she thought that twilight, a character meant to be a role-model, would have to address her status being a slave owner at some point in the series?
*ahem*

The thing is, Spike stays there entirely of his own volition. Twilight doesn't have him locked away in chains inside the library or anything. Spike is left entirely to his own devices for most of the show, has plenty of opportunities to, say, flee his "slavery", and is let wander freely about Canterlot and Ponyville whenever he likes.

Twilight stops him from going into Everfree Forest and so on since they're dangerous, not to stop the slave from fleeing to freedom.

Doesn't look much like slavery to me.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2011, 04:54:13 pm by BowlSoldier »
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TheBronzePickle

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Re: My Little Pony, Friendship Is Magic
« Reply #481 on: October 26, 2011, 04:56:16 pm »

Good explanation. And thanks for that link, it should help remind people that we can have our little discussions as much as we please.

We're a collective of intellectually-minded people who have a well-written, and due to that highly discussable, show. Here's to discussion and debate on it for as long as we shall live.
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kaijyuu

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Re: My Little Pony, Friendship Is Magic
« Reply #482 on: October 26, 2011, 04:57:53 pm »

Yup, yup. Were it not for the depth of this show I'd probably not be watching it. Discuss random details all ya'll like!

Some of your discussions are nitpicky and I stay out of them, but still :P
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Re: My Little Pony, Friendship Is Magic
« Reply #483 on: October 26, 2011, 04:58:20 pm »

Moderator note: this is not image spam. These are corroborative images relevant to a discussion. I'm screen-capping these personally to make points, not blindly copying images from elsewhere on the web.

Thank you.


this is a children's show targeted to young girls

Here's a screenshot from your children's show targetted to young girls:



Just because a show is intended for children doesn't mean it's totally innocent. Here's a relevant tvtropes entry

In this case though, I'm not suggesting that the writers are deliberately sneaking this stuff in. I think they're writing without always thinking through the implications of what they write.

Quote
Dragon slaves?

Why not? We have races that kidnap and enslave ponies, put them in chains and compell them to work in mines:




You can try to whitewash this stuff...you can try to put a "nice" slant on it, but it is what it is.

Quote
Spike could be an orphan

That doesn't change anything. If Celestia personally murdered Spike's parents and stole the egg with her own two hands, Spike would still be an orphan. I'm not suggesting that Celestia did this. But calling him an orphan doesn't change anything, any more than saying that the "diamond dogs just wanted Rarity to find gems for them" changes the substance of what was happening.


MC Dirty

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Re: My Little Pony, Friendship Is Magic
« Reply #484 on: October 26, 2011, 05:00:48 pm »

4 Since these are the classic gold hoarding Dragons, they are likely quite terratorial about their gold with other dragons, making spike more of a liability than a help and come on people you're looking too deeply into this.

Seriously people? Dragon slaves? Dragon slaves. I don't know how many times I can keep telling you guys this, this is a children's show targeted to young girls, do you really think Lauren Faust made spike a character because she thought that twilight, a character meant to be a role-model, would have to address her status being a slave owner at some point in the series?
*ahem*

The thing is, Spike stays there entirely of his own volition. Twilight doesn't have him locked away in chains inside the library or anything. Spike is left entirely to his own devices for most of the show, has plenty of opportunities to, say, flee his "slavery", and is let wander freely about Canterlot and Ponyville whenever he likes.

Twilight stops him from going into Everfree Forest and so on since they're dangerous, not to stop the slave from fleeing to freedom.

Doesn't look much like slavery to me.
Of course, then you could bring up the entire argument whether a slave who is a slave of his own volition is really a slave.
Does the definition of slavery make any reference to the alleged slave's will or not? That is a serious question because I really don't know and many (mostly humorous) works have slaves as characters that are very happy with their status as slaves (like the slaves in "Small Gods" by Terry Pratchett who have more freedom than the "free" Omnian citizens).
« Last Edit: October 26, 2011, 05:04:33 pm by MC Dirty »
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Flying Dice

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Re: My Little Pony, Friendship Is Magic
« Reply #485 on: October 26, 2011, 05:06:27 pm »

People blindly asserted that Twilight hatching the egg was some rare and unusual event. There is no indication of that. There is every indication that using dragon eggs to test students applying at Celestia's school is a standard yawn-worthy affair of no special significance.

Where? All I can recall was my nonserious remark that it was some sort of false-front exam. The consensus seems to be that they were shocked because she grew Spike into a mature dragon (or a parody of one), not that she hatched him. I don't know where you are pulling this from.


Quote
the master is still taking care of the familiar. It's not slavery.

So if I kidnap your baby and task him with menial labor...but take good care of him, that's not slavery?

You assume that the impression is against the will of the parent dragons, yet there is no evidence for this. Given the nature of Equestrian society and that Celestia doesn't have the time or energy to constantly fight off suicidally angry dragons, it is much more likely that they are involved in some sort of mutualistic relationship where eggs are sent to the academy to be raised, strengthening the bonds between dragonkind and ponykind, eventually outliving their partners and joining the dragon population as adults. You could even take it as being an education for them, not only because of what they will learn as the companion of the equivalent of a grad student, but the lessons on humility, acceptance, friendship, etc. Again, see Pern for a perfect example of a mutualistic relationship between two sentient species, one of which happens to be dragons.

They've been in Canterlot for the Grand Galloping Gala, and one would have expected to see at least a few graduates from such a prestigious school there

Spike didn't go. Why assume that other students would bring their familiar? And Spike also didn't go when they went to Canterlot in The Return of Harmony.
   
You don't take your slaves with you to the palace.

In reality, slaves are actually one of the classes with the greatest access to the wealthy and powerful, as they are used in a multitude of tasks. If Spike were a slave, it would have been much more fitting for his "master" to bring him along to take care of problems beneath her notice.


The evidence, such that it is, supports the idea of a mutualistic relationship where dragons send their young to be educated in areas applicable to them (mainly to reduce friction in intracommunity interaction between dragons, as well as how they interact with other sentient species), essentially for free. Keep in mind that the dragons will outlive their unicorn partner by a great span of time; the years that Spike lives with Twilight will basically be the equivalent of birth to puberty, assuming ponies have a lifespan of 60-100 years. By the time the unicorn has died, the dragon will be old enough to strike out alone and begin accumulating a hoard. If, as I believe, this system has been in place for centuries or millenia, it has been very successful at fostering understanding and harmony between ponies and dragons, to the point that dragons both apparently avoid eating ponies, and are actually willing to accomodate their needs, as in Dragonshy, once they understand that they are causing trouble.

This in turn benefits the dragons by removing the responsibility from mothers to split attention between young and (to dragons) more serious concerns, such as protecting their treasure, as well as heading off conflict between the two species at large because some foolish dragon child pissed off Celestia by eating a pony, burning a town, or some such thing. In short, it would promote the exact same values as the show itself: friendship, harmony, and acceptance.

Q: "Well, why are there no other known dragon babies being raised by unicorns?"
A: Dragons are sort of hybrid breeders, possessing the K-strategy trait of producing few viable offspring, yet also the R-strategy trait of not particularly caring for their well-being (according to most canon interpretations of dragons). Likely there are dozens of new students each year, but there are not enough eggs. So you test each applicant with the egg, and if they don't hatch it, they proceed normally,  but if they do, they become the caretaker for the baby dragon. Thus, you have the hatching/partnership as a viable system without having baby dragons all over the place.

Q: "If Spike isn't a slave, why does he do chore and why does Twilight not take him absolutely everywhere with her?"
A: Because he is a child, and Twilight is a surrogate mother. Parents give children chores to teach responsibility and a work ethic. Twilight gives him what is occasionally a bit much to do because she is an academic and as such is a bit detached from the physical world when she is pursuing an idea. Not the best, but certainly not "slavery". Misinterpreting their relationship is rather difficult to do unless you are deliberately doing so/have never had parents, siblings, or children. Or caretakers at all. As for why she doesn't take him everywhere... Really? He is a child, and she is essentially a grad student conducting field research. Not only would much of it bore him to tears, but she often gets into dangerous situations, and does her best to keep him out of danger, as part of her role in raising him. Obviously she fails, because being inattentive isn't the best trait around a curious child. Herpaderp.

And again, I need to emphasize this: IF CELESTIA WAS KIDNAPPING DRAGON EGGS, SHE WOULD HAVE ANGRY DRAGONS, BURNING TOWNS, AND MANGLED PONIES OUT THE WAZOO. SHE DOES NOT, SO CLEARLY SHE ISN'T KIDNAPPING THEM. Dragons may not care much for their young, but eggs are another kind of special, shiny treasure to them. They would retaliate in a rather nasty fashion if they were stolen.

Regarding the images: Animators putting in scenes that are mildly sexual =/= canon child slavery.

Rarity and the Diamond Dogs: Is Rarity a child now? Or a dragon, perhaps? Are Diamond Dogs ponies? No on all counts. The fact that a trio of individuals from a species that has been portrayed as much less objectively "good" than ponies abducted an adult with a special talent does not imply that Equestria is home to the systematic kidnapping and enslavement of the unborn children of giant firebreathing lizards. Sort of like how your first image of some ponies in compromising positions while fighting under the influence of a love spell doesn't imply that ponies across Equestria have wild sex orgies every Thursday night.

Sorry for the great wall of child slavery.
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Heliman

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Re: My Little Pony, Friendship Is Magic
« Reply #486 on: October 26, 2011, 05:08:12 pm »

4 Since these are the classic gold hoarding Dragons, they are likely quite terratorial about their gold with other dragons, making spike more of a liability than a help and come on people you're looking too deeply into this.

Seriously people? Dragon slaves? Dragon slaves. I don't know how many times I can keep telling you guys this, this is a children's show targeted to young girls, do you really think Lauren Faust made spike a character because she thought that twilight, a character meant to be a role-model, would have to address her status being a slave owner at some point in the series?
*ahem*

The thing is, Spike stays there entirely of his own volition. Twilight doesn't have him locked away in chains inside the library or anything. Spike is left entirely to his own devices for most of the show, has plenty of opportunities to, say, flee his "slavery", and is let wander freely about Canterlot and Ponyville whenever he likes.

Twilight stops him from going into Everfree Forest and so on since they're dangerous, not to stop the slave from fleeing to freedom.

Doesn't look much like slavery to me.
Actually I was more of making an argument using the writer's past statements and probable intention of the characters role than using "Moff's Law" to tell you to shut up and enjoy it but what ever.
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TheBronzePickle

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Re: My Little Pony, Friendship Is Magic
« Reply #487 on: October 26, 2011, 05:08:31 pm »

Honestly, the word 'slave' is one of those damned words that supposedly has meaning, but it's so vague that it's useless in any real descriptive sense, sort of like 'terrorist', 'communist', 'patriot', et cetera ad infinitum. You could call anyone a slave and probably justify it.
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Necro910

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Re: My Little Pony, Friendship Is Magic
« Reply #488 on: October 26, 2011, 05:11:17 pm »

4 Since these are the classic gold hoarding Dragons, they are likely quite terratorial about their gold with other dragons, making spike more of a liability than a help and come on people you're looking too deeply into this.

Seriously people? Dragon slaves? Dragon slaves. I don't know how many times I can keep telling you guys this, this is a children's show targeted to young girls, do you really think Lauren Faust made spike a character because she thought that twilight, a character meant to be a role-model, would have to address her status being a slave owner at some point in the series?
*ahem*

The thing is, Spike stays there entirely of his own volition. Twilight doesn't have him locked away in chains inside the library or anything. Spike is left entirely to his own devices for most of the show, has plenty of opportunities to, say, flee his "slavery", and is let wander freely about Canterlot and Ponyville whenever he likes.

Twilight stops him from going into Everfree Forest and so on since they're dangerous, not to stop the slave from fleeing to freedom.

Doesn't look much like slavery to me.
Of course, then you could bring up the entire argument whether a slave who is a slave of his own volition is really a slave.
Does the definition of slavery make any reference to the alleged slave's will or not? That is a serious question because I really don't know and many (mostly humorous) works have slaves as characters that are very happy with their status as slaves (like the slaves in "Small Gods" by Terry Pratchett who have more freedom than the "free" Omnian citizens).
Depends on Spike's view.

Flying Dice

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Re: My Little Pony, Friendship Is Magic
« Reply #489 on: October 26, 2011, 05:18:54 pm »

Honestly, the word 'slave' is one of those damned words that supposedly has meaning, but it's so vague that it's useless in any real descriptive sense, sort of like 'terrorist', 'communist', 'patriot', et cetera ad infinitum. You could call anyone a slave and probably justify it.


Well obviously the greatest patriot, her royal majesty Princess Celestia, saw all those damn godless terrorist pinko commie scalebacks and decided to enslave them for the greater good of the grand nation of Equestria, in between mind control sessions and orgies.
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LordBucket

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Re: My Little Pony, Friendship Is Magic
« Reply #490 on: October 26, 2011, 06:11:41 pm »

You assume that the impression is against the will of the
parent dragons, yet there is no evidence for this.

No one's given any evidence that it's with their permission either. But we're given the choice of:

a) Dragons are either willingly giving up or accidentally losing eggs in sufficient quantities that ponies can totally by chance find them without any way to return them often enough to keep Celestia's school supplied

or

b) Ponies are procuring those eggs themselves without permission

In the absense of any direct evidence to support either answer, I simply ask...which is more plausible? Especially given the canon evidence that, given opportunity to put Spike in contact with his own kind they specifically chose not to.

Quote
it is much more likely that they are involved in some sort of mutualistic relationship where eggs are sent to the academy to be raised, strengthening the bonds between dragonkind and ponykind, eventually outliving their partners and joining the dragon population as adults.

That might be possible, but if so...then you're suggesting that dragons are deliberately giving away their children to be raised as servants to ponies. That scenario does explain what we see in the show, but there is no direct evidence for it. Granted, there also appears to be no direct evidence for my scenario, but I ask again: which seems more plausible? Would you give away your children to be raised as a servant to another species?

Personally I suspect that it's a matter of selective blinders. Like people in this thread have insisted that it's not slavery just because Twilight is nice to Spike. There's a tendancy to try to put a "nice" slant on things. Ponies probably don't think of what they're doing as kidnapping or slavery.

Quote
The consensus seems to be that they were shocked because she grew
Spike into a mature dragon (or a parody of one), not that she hatched
him. I don't know where you are pulling this from.

Not sure if you're responding to me on this one. I've suggested that they were reacting to the fact that Twilight was losing magical control and engulfed them in lightning. And images were posted coroborating that.

But whether they were reacting to the lightning or Spike turning into godzilla, either way supports my position. The whole question came up because some people proposed a couple pages ago that nobody actually expected her to hatch the egg, and that it was all as you phrased it, a false-front exam. The evidence doesn't support that, because again...nobody reacted to her hatching the egg.

Quote
IF CELESTIA WAS KIDNAPPING DRAGON EGGS, SHE WOULD HAVE ANGRY DRAGONS, BURNING TOWNS, AND MANGLED PONIES OUT THE WAZOO. SHE DOES NOT, SO CLEARLY SHE ISN'T KIDNAPPING THEM.

Celestia is a goddess responsible for making to sun come up every morning. Would you really want to go burning down her towns?

Quote
Rarity and the Diamond Dogs: Is Rarity a child now?

No and that's not what was said. Heliman was trying to use a cop-out and I was simply calling him on it.

He implied in this post that since it was a children's show, obviously such a dark thing as dragon slavery couldn't exist. I responded with totally canon evidence of pony slavery. Interracial slavery obviously exists in the show: diamond dogs chained up Rarity to work their mine. I'm obviously not saying that Rarity is a child. I'm simply pointing out that it's silly to suggest that such a thing as "dragon slavery" can't exist in a children's show when we can very easily point out canon examples of pony slavery.

Dsarker

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Re: My Little Pony, Friendship Is Magic
« Reply #491 on: October 26, 2011, 06:21:00 pm »

I'd say that the first is more plausible. Otherwise, Celestia is going to have to go with every expedition, and that means that she's not doing more important stuff.

Seriously.
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MC Dirty

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Re: My Little Pony, Friendship Is Magic
« Reply #492 on: October 26, 2011, 06:23:01 pm »

Especially given the canon evidence that, given opportunity to put Spike in contact with his own kind they specifically chose not to.
Well, for good reason as shown in "Owl's Well That Ends Well". Spike had plenty of contact with his own kind and nearly died!
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TheBronzePickle

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Re: My Little Pony, Friendship Is Magic
« Reply #493 on: October 26, 2011, 06:25:35 pm »

Dragons are reptiles, right? If they're like our version of reptiles, they leave their unborn eggs without care in some clutch. This means that the eggs are pretty much up for grabs to whoever wants them. The eggs aren't getting stolen because they're not being taken from anyone.

That still doesn't make it slavery. If the dragon is taken in by a student, the student essentially adopts the dragon, becoming an adoptive parent. To that effect, the adoptive parent can have the child dragon perform any chore as long as the chore does not threaten the life of the child, as is with any other parent. Presumably, after the dragon has grown old enough to take care of his- or herself, he or she can leave at will.
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Dsarker

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Re: My Little Pony, Friendship Is Magic
« Reply #494 on: October 26, 2011, 06:27:56 pm »

Dragons are reptiles, right? If they're like our version of reptiles, they leave their unborn eggs without care in some clutch. This means that the eggs are pretty much up for grabs to whoever wants them. The eggs aren't getting stolen because they're not being taken from anyone.

That still doesn't make it slavery. If the dragon is taken in by a student, the student essentially adopts the dragon, becoming an adoptive parent. To that effect, the adoptive parent can have the child dragon perform any chore as long as the chore does not threaten the life of the child, as is with any other parent. Presumably, after the dragon has grown old enough to take care of his- or herself, he or she can leave at will.

Wrong. Crocodiles take quite good care of their young.


Ooh, wait, great idea.


You remember the story of King Arthur? You probably know it, the guy who pulled the sword from the stone.

The onlookers probably weren't too interested in him trying to pull the sword from the stone...because they've seen people try it before, and fail.

Also, notice - the examiners don't expect her to hatch the egg. She's the one with the talent for magic, who's read as much as could possibly be read on magic, and still she doesn't hatch it until the Sonic Rainboom (which she doesn't notice either, and neither does Celestia, apparently.) kicks her magic into something we've never seen since.

To use a simile, that is like expecting your kid to get one hundred percent in his test on advanced calculus while he's still in grade two. Sure, your kid might be smart, but he's still not going to do it.
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