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Author Topic: Making Useless Labors Useful--Version 0.2  (Read 11283 times)

peregarrett

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Re: Making Useless Labors Useful
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2012, 12:08:32 pm »

Those have no value ingame... you can use them for reactions, but since you cant enable or disable the skill, and the skill is not shown, it will just result in any dwarf running the reaction. same result as leaving no skill in the reactuio anyway
Can you use workshop profiles to limit that, once you have a good enough writer?

You could. You could also tie the skill into another one. In a mod I'm considering coding, I plan to have Writer + normal skill to generate a book. Labor is determined by the book being generated, and both writer/normal skill get some experience. That process would generate a manuscript, which then has to go to an editor which would use labor+wordsmith to fact check. He can either accept it (5% chance), or send it back for revisions. This continues until an edited book is generated which can be installed in a library workshop (and controlled via Profiles).
How do you use two skills in one reaction?
Or first you make empty pages with, say, Leatherworking, and then fill it with Writer skill?
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NCommander

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Re: Making Useless Labors Useful
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2012, 12:42:55 pm »

Those have no value ingame... you can use them for reactions, but since you cant enable or disable the skill, and the skill is not shown, it will just result in any dwarf running the reaction. same result as leaving no skill in the reactuio anyway
Can you use workshop profiles to limit that, once you have a good enough writer?

You could. You could also tie the skill into another one. In a mod I'm considering coding, I plan to have Writer + normal skill to generate a book. Labor is determined by the book being generated, and both writer/normal skill get some experience. That process would generate a manuscript, which then has to go to an editor which would use labor+wordsmith to fact check. He can either accept it (5% chance), or send it back for revisions. This continues until an edited book is generated which can be installed in a library workshop (and controlled via Profiles).
How do you use two skills in one reaction?
Or first you make empty pages with, say, Leatherworking, and then fill it with Writer skill?

The reactions I was considering:

New paper+ink materials made at craftdwarfshop (or maybe something new) -> stack of paper [500], ink[500].

Writers Desk (workshop). Create medical manuscript (for instance).

stack of paper->ink immediately become "flash of inspiration"+"notes".

"flash of inspration" boils at room temp, infecting the dwarf with a syndrome that increases their writer skills as a one shot event.

Notes then are processed into a manuscript increasing the dwarf's normal skill (i.e., medical will use diagonisis or something. Maybe make the syndrome randomly increase all relevant stats a little bit). Interaction tags probably need to be used to make sure that a dwarf who wrote a manuscript is the only one who edits it (if that's possible).

This mostly depends though on a workshops ability to auto-dispatch jobs for itself (ala the butcher shop). I suspect with some clever uses of syndromes/interactions though, I could get this to work properly.


I misunderstood how the skill syndrome effects work. Back to the drawing board ...
---

This was my basic idea, but some tweaking will be necessary to make it actually work. Its still within the realm of possibility.

EDIT: Alright, now I'm curious if I can actually make this work.
EDIT 2: SO after a bit of trial and error, I figured out how non-labor attached skills work, and now trying various ideas.

NCommander cancels Post: Modding DF
« Last Edit: September 20, 2012, 01:56:31 pm by NCommander »
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Meph

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Re: Making Useless Labors Useful
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2012, 02:00:10 pm »

Guys, multiple labors for reactions dont work. the game will only recognize the lowest entry in the raws, and all skillgain will be for that only.
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Darvi

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Re: Making Useless Labors Useful
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2012, 02:03:44 pm »

It is, however, possible to make several reactions that require only one skill each. You could make a mass production assembly line that way, methinks. Dwarven books: new export hit?
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Meph

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Re: Making Useless Labors Useful
« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2012, 02:12:44 pm »

I dare you to download my mod and have a look at the book/library section. 6 buildings, and this many reactions:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
say that there might already be a complex book system somewhere . :)
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Darvi

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Re: Making Useless Labors Useful
« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2012, 02:16:49 pm »

Yeah I dunno.
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Meph

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Re: Making Useless Labors Useful
« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2012, 02:42:56 pm »

Well, sorry, that was beside the point anyway. The point was: Prose, Writing, and any other such leftovers (like "drunk" profession) are not useful in fortress mode in any way.
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NCommander

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Re: Making Useless Labors Useful
« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2012, 11:50:32 pm »

Well, sorry, that was beside the point anyway. The point was: Prose, Writing, and any other such leftovers (like "drunk" profession) are not useful in fortress mode in any way.

They do provide stat gains, but all-and-all, your right.

THat being said, I did figure out a way to have two skills trained at once (kinda), involving the use of automatic queuing, and having the "useless" skill determine the quality (I don't think the input part of a reagent does that). Since you can't set labors for unused skills, profiles are required.
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OCDorf

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Re: Making Useless Labors Useful
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2012, 12:51:54 am »

The problem with some of these labors isn't so much with what the labor puts out, but rather with what the labor needs. Most liquids in Dwarf Fortress can be kept in barrels and pots - for some reason, jugs and buckets are the primary holding source for milk and honey, rather than a tool used to move milk/honey from the source to a barrel/pot. In addition, bees and animals produce a small amount of honey and milk, respectively, and need a large period of time to produce enough material for a harvest, and keeping large amounts of either requires large amounts of buckets and jugs. If you only needed one bucket per farmer's workshop, for instance, because the milk is moved from the bucket into a proper barrel automatically, the cheesemaking industry becomes less taxing on necessary materials and becomes more productive due to the cheesemaker now having more milk to work with at a time. Modding in plant cheese alleviates the problems with relying solely on animal cheeses with regards to harvest size in relation to harvest times, but the bucket issue is still present. In addition, overshadowing the cheesemaking industry is just how lucrative prepared meals are despite just how much easier it is to get the raw materials (which is pretty much anything edible). Even meals made with nothing but plump helmet spawn will overshadow anything a cheesemaker can produce. When the world's economy is finished, this might change, but for now that's the major problem with the labor.

Waxworking can be expanded, yes. Wax crafts in and of themselves aren't completely useless, at least not much more than stone or bone crafts are, but making wax candles (which can be placed in a room for a happy thought) could be a good addition. Wax working might also be a labor to look at for when dwarves become literate - wax seals are a good way of proving a document is official, for instance, and globs of dyed wax could become a valuable export commodity.

Animal Dissectors turning animal corpses into statues is also a good idea. The size of the creature and the inherent danger of it should have a direct effect on the value of the statue, I think. A stuffed dragon would be much more valuable than a stuffed frog, after all. When dwarves become literate, animal dissectors could function as an opposite to tanners, turning fresh rawhide into vellum rather than tanned leather.

When wood as a material is allowed to be pressable, pressing out oils and perfumes for use in other industries would be a great boost to the pressing labor. And, like wax working, pressing would become even more useful when dwarves become literate. Pressing reeds to make reed paper, for instance.

Soapmaking... I'm not sure if there's really anything to do to make it more important: other than make animals require soap to clean their wounds instead of only dwarves, that is. As of now, a fort with dwarves suffering injuries often has a great need for soapmakers. If the issue is the need for tallow, then modding in plants that can be pressed to produce soaping oil fixes that.

For the traits that ElfCollaborator mentioned, there'd be no need for those to get labors of their own. Creativity has an effect on Engraving, correct? When dwarves become literate, writing ability will likely have the same effect. When musical instruments are finally playable in Dwarf Fortress, musical ability will finally have an effect as well. Some of these traits could also be applied to alchemy if that should ever arrive in vanilla DF.
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Joben

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Re: Making Useless Labors Useful
« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2012, 01:55:09 am »

@ The OP: I feel required to point out that soap already technically is bars/blocks. (You can make soap workshops and walls)
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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: Making Useless Labors Useful
« Reply #25 on: September 21, 2012, 02:02:25 am »

But not wells or other things that require blocks. Besides, I'm imagining making two blocks with the amount of material it would take to make one bar of soap or something--more efficient.
Maybe I'll start with soap; the soaping reactions are already in the raws.
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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: Making Useless Labors Useful
« Reply #26 on: September 21, 2012, 03:52:36 am »

I've made soap blocks and crafts reactions, as well as wax blocks reactions. Wax seems more useless than soap, so I'll work on it firster. Question: How, other than bees, could I get wax? It seems to me that the biggest problem with wax is its rarity.
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Delioth

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Re: Making Useless Labors Useful
« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2012, 04:00:40 am »

I've made soap blocks and crafts reactions, as well as wax blocks reactions. Wax seems more useless than soap, so I'll work on it firster. Question: How, other than bees, could I get wax? It seems to me that the biggest problem with wax is its rarity.

For the wax, have sperm whales give some on butcher (they have some in their skull cavity), also make a plant or two pressable for oil, which can be pressed again into wax. Figure out if you can get the dwarves to harvest peat and do something with it to make wax.
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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: Making Useless Labors Useful
« Reply #28 on: September 21, 2012, 04:02:30 am »

Ambergris, oil, and peat...I can work with that.
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IndigoFenix

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Re: Making Useless Labors Useful
« Reply #29 on: September 21, 2012, 05:26:12 am »

Taxidermy could be a nice use for animal dissectors.  Unfortunately, there's no way to specify what kind of statue or craft is made from a particular material, so if you made, say, a leather statue, you could easily just end up with 'cow leather statue of dwarves' or something like that.  You could define a custom 'stuffed animal' tool and wind up with 'cow leather stuffed animal' or 'bear leather stuffed animal', which is kind of clear-ish, unfortunately you couldn't use these as furniture.  The value would be determined by the value of the creature's leather, so exotic creatures would be more valuable than typical ones (unfortunately no dragons, as scale is not tannable, at least not with Vanilla defined materials.)
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