So.. What are your Ethos and traits?Yep, standard premade Earth. That means our ethos are fanatic egalitarian and xenophile. The xenopihle bit is a bit redundant, but fanatic egalitarian will allow us to pursue the road to utopia
Are you the standard premade Earth species?
I get the feeling the planet's about to get crowded.Nah it's ok, once Earth reaches its limit the UN plan is just to drive reproduction down with education, contraceptives and whatnot using the administrative AI to ensure humanity is at replacement rate but nothing more
Nah it's ok, once Earth reaches its limit the UN plan is just to drive education down with education
This is going to end badly, unless another, friendlier alien nation shows up nearby that Earth can become a protectorate of.Ignore the aliens, we'll be fine
This is a game not a simulator.It is a simulation within a game
Anyway, what are you going to replace to prevent starvation? Who needs science anyway.Replace nothing, Stellaris starvation mechanics are nonexistent. The game assumes that even if you wipe out all food production buildings, you haven't really wiped out all food or food production - only reduced its availability. I've gone decades without food and starvation hasn't even triggered, so I'm guessing not colonizing or exploring at all may have bugged it out somewhat. At any rate, even with the happiness penalty, it is so small that utopian economics eliminates the penalty twice over. Road to Utopia cannot be compromised
aliens don't existYou're right, aliens don't exist! Ahaha, that Mandasura show was quite a laugh, very retro-war of the worlds style. A little uninspiring though. Earth-burning plants? I mean, come on, who writes this nonsense...
aliens don't exist
aliens don't exist
aka ignore defense for the good of Earth (and maybe in the name of FUN).
Well, since the aliens are spacefaring it would be quite easy for them to bombard Earth into gravel. Since they have not done so we can safely assume that either they cannot or will not - maybe the whole 'Earth will burn!' thing is just a translation error.It's just old-fashioned saber rattling. They are just trying to look tough because of internal issues.
Actually, if these aliens hate us so much, why would they bother to translate our language (which they would have had to have done given that we didn't bother translating their language)?
Clearly the answer is to achieve psionic transcendence and then deploying extra-dimensional capital ship to defend earth. Thus you technically didn't leave earth and you technically didn't build a fleet.
This is a pretty good idea actually, and I was considering for the transcendence that it'd be a choice between either going psionic or going genetic. Although going synthetic gives mankind a kind of immortality there's no happiness bonus from it and without an expansion of planet space it seems apparent that Earth would be stuck in a permanent state of stasis operated by the last generation of personalities alive on Earth.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Capital, Earth (ENR), Mandasura has accused the United Nations of "trying to drive the situation of the Solar System to the brink of galactic war" after the UN Friendship Council unanimously blocked all friend requests and imposed the silent treatment on Saturday in response to Mandasura's long-range communications of threatening intent.
The sanction measures aim to make it harder for Mandasura to make money across the galaxy. They target Mandasura's primary exports -- including gamma radiation, Iblyrian photons and cosmic shitposts -- and attempt to cut off its additional revenue streams by targeting some of its firms and joint ventures with potential Mandasuran accomplices that "virtually literally very literally" exist on Earth, said a UN spokesperson at the kraftbrew storehome.
The forceful rhetoric, made in a statement released via the country's permanent mission to the Mandasurans on Monday, prompted a response from the Mandasura condemning the sanctions in the "strongest terms" declaring the resolution a "wanton infringement upon the sovereignty of the Empire, Iblyrian photons must be free to grace the cosmos with their light."
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Quake in fun, exotic chum, for your future awaits! The Mandasura Banterers will clean the galaxy for every misguided developing civilization that polluted the environment due to prevailing psychosociocosmical conditions. Earth is #lit!
It's just old-fashioned saber rattling. They are just trying to look tough because of internal issues.
Meanwhile, most humans can't find Iblyria on a map.*is too busy streaming mindmemes straight into my brain to care*
Thanks m8y, though I'm hoping no earthlings get eaten or mulched, that tends to lower happinessSpoiler (click to show/hide)
This is my new favorite aar. I look forward to hearing more of your prophetic visions of the utopian future, lwSpeaking of, an update on the really slow updates - getting computer repaired, proper updates should resume at Monday or Tuesday latest!
But... I wanted my ancient sea predators!Just download the holosquids DLC for Farming Simulator MXVI on the VRNone. It's not as good as having ancient sea predators roam the Earth's oceans again but it's the next best thing
Not even GOING to space now, they're drones. Orbital laser drones.If we put drones on orbit, they'll block the view of the night sky! That is obviously unacceptable! It'll be even worse if they fire!
If we put drones on orbit, they'll block the view of the night sky! That is obviously unacceptable! It'll be even worse if they fire!
It's bad enough that our moon has become unstuck, now we have to look up and see drones? Eugh, no!Not even GOING to space now, they're drones. Orbital laser drones.If we put drones on orbit, they'll block the view of the night sky! That is obviously unacceptable! It'll be even worse if they fire!
I will point out that causing emotional harm is one of the aims of the economic sanctions we have already started using. I will further point out that the law does not prohibit causing grievous emotional and physical harm to the plantpeople using orbital firebombs, as they are neither citizens of earth nor technically "people".But that would be mean. And not utopic.
Come on people, we are egalitarian, not pacifists.
You know what's not a utopia? Earth being on fire because of some damned xenos plants.We cannot lower ourselves to Mandasurian levels of barbarity.
Just as our pursuit of ultimate harmony has freed ourselves, so too has it freed our moon.Thinkers of Planet Earth have continued to ponder such mystery, and after exhausting their list of fallacies and solipsism, centered upon 5 main schools of thought:
Dunno how much my opinions matters, but I think it's justified to put unmanned lasers in orbit to burn down those dastardly Plantpeople missiles. Purely as point-defence, you understand. Aaaaand maybe later we could form a temporary fleet to go to Iblyria and "enforce our sanctions". With fire.
By no means! Space is an environmental haven, unsullied by humans, and that's how it's staying!All opinions are heard, appreciated and accepted. However this does not mean all are agreed upon! And I must say, attacking others in the dame of "defence" doesn't seem terribly moral nor logical does it? Why, on the contrary, we'd be invading them! And that would simply not do. At least, not until the 5% of UN disapprovers get anywhere near powerful enough to sway public opinion on our glorious and most harmonious nation of Planet Earth. Are we really so keen to put an end to the era of unfettered tranquility that we are to place war machines in the virgin expanse of the Sol System?
As for the suggestion of war... Completely barbaric!
/me founds a xenophobe faction.Oh... You're not one of those faction extremists are you? Rest assured, no plants are coming to earth to take our utopia.
These foul Xenos are hard at work sullying space already! Surely you won't allow these plants to take Utopia away from us?
No, you see, if we pollute space we become like the aliens. Besides, it would mean there's less money for developing new hypernet videos...5-d cats are cool but there's nothing quite like the cats of classical antiquity
wait, what I was talking about? right, here's a cool video of a 5-d cat. and here are 500 more. who would want to go to space when there are cat videos to watch
You can probably cut a few good trade deals with all the tech and resources we're accumulating...Nah, we're coming up with all sorts of great ideas here at home! Don't really see what's out there in space that is worth risking many lives over. Perhaps a trade deal could be useful, but we are yet to find a species that wishes to trade with us sadly.
...though you do need to explore to get new ideas, right? That's how it works?
Oh... How ghastly. And just think the light pollution concentrated laser beams could cause! When I look up at the night sky I want to see the stars, not an empty blackness threatening to misalign my reawakened chakras. I could probably live without seeing the Sponsored by Sodabeans Energy Bullet Startm though.Not even GOING to space now, they're drones. Orbital laser drones.If we put drones on orbit, they'll block the view of the night sky! That is obviously unacceptable! It'll be even worse if they fire!
you don't understand physics kill yourself kindlyAww you too <3
It's bad enough that our moon has become unstuck, now we have to look up and see drones? Eugh, no!I hear another good argument against orbital defence platforms. The void is a pure space
I will point out that causing emotional harm is one of the aims of the economic sanctions we have already started using. I will further point out that the law does not prohibit causing grievous emotional and physical harm to the plantpeople using orbital firebombs, as they are neither citizens of earth nor technically "people".While we are egalitarians and not necessarily opposed to war, we are xenophiles committed to the respecting of cosmic diversity. Who are we to judge the value of a species' life simply because it does not conform to our anthropocentric definitions of 'people'? They remain as they are, a species to be treasured as part of the galactic community, regardless of the actions of their leadership. Our goal is not to punish the Mandasuran, but to show their leaders that we will fight for ideals. If we build a fleet and attack them on their terms, they have won, they have made us become the warlike evil they believe us to be. If we show them otherwise, then perhaps we will be the first to make peace and harmony in a galaxy that as far as we know, may habour no other sapient life. We are joined by destiny, no matter how turbulent our introductions.
Come on people, we are egalitarian, not pacifists.
Senator Liu of the UN Interpersonal Happiness Council politely suggests at a major conference that we shouldn't go into space until we've properly considered the possibility of inadvertantly causing its inhabitants emotional harm.President Aarohi Varma commends Senator Liu for their most sagacious and empathetic concerns, and promises they shall be considered most seriously by a select Committee for the Study of the Emotional Impact of Terran Warships in Cooperative Space (EITWICS). It would certainly not help win the plantstems and minds of Mandasura to be distressing the Undercanopy class of Mandasura simply because the Emergent Plants have tricked them with xenophobia into fighting for their own oppressive darkness, while their overlords bamboozle them with concepts and spreadsheets of trickle-down starlight. With our help they will see the light of equality, where a plant's happiness in life is not determined by the chlorophyll in their dermis nor by how many meters per year they can grow nor how many meat organisms they can consume.
My brothers a huge fan, may as well PTW.Thank you, I promise to take longevity treatments for as long as this continues.
Please don't die. Not until this is done, at least.
You know what's not a utopia? Earth being on fire because of some damned xenos plants.I feel uncertain, because I imagine that possible outcome is merely part and parcel of living in a galactic community where occasionally, tempers flare and xenos plants have to work out a few issues before we return to amicable relations. And do not worry - Earth is not defenceless, we are shielded, and we have the Five Continent Forces!
Fanatic purifiers cannot be tolerated. The whole species is irrevocably tainted, not just the leadership. I daresay that the entire Mandasuran biosphere is a dark reminder of the evils in our own past. They must be purified, the same way that we have purified our own planet of conflict and hate. Only when the xenos home planet is nothing but a smoking dead world can our galaxy know peace.No Egan, you are the Mandasurans.
Okay. Right now? Not the time for Xenophilia. Now is time to prepare ourselves and PURGE THE XENOS. Seriously, how can this not have support? If the UN can't see the reality of the situation, someone else will have to step in, and defend our glorious planet...I think even in these dark times there is no need for brash xenophobia or such destabilizing rhetoric. Nevertheless, we shall declare a state of limited emergency from 2292:11:01, ending 10 years hence, wherein utopian economics will be suspended to fund for an increase in the defence budgets of the Earth Defence Force. As of now no orbital defence platforms or installations of any kind will be constructed, not without serious consideration from the United Nations Security Council. As it stands it could very well be that the Adnori Kobolds have already successfully eliminated a spacefaring civilization that resided in the Jehet and Orellia star systems, and is currently in the process of eliminating another - so it is a great deal more energetic than the Mandasurans.
Our goal is not to punish the Mandasuran, but to show their leaders that we will fight for ideals. If we build a fleet and attack them on their terms, they have won, they have made us become the warlike evil they believe us to be. If we show them otherwise, then perhaps we will be the first to make peace and harmony in a galaxy that as far as we know, may habour no other sapient life.
Amazing. Did you cheat this out with some editor or something, or did peace really just win over a Fanatic Purifier?No cheats or editors, I was getting pretty hyped trying to figure out how to win without spaceports against the Adnori and I found this welcome, if anti-climatic. So there I was just building laboratories and trying to figure out if I could build enough droid defence units to hold out against an armageddon bombardment while rushing to psionics when I got the surprise message. First time I've ever seen this happen to a fanatical purifier civ, though not unlikely - the way the game's factions are weighted, it's a lot easier for pops to move towards pacifism, egalitarianism & xenophilia than to militarism, authoritarianism and xenophobia. The spiritualism-materialism split is based more on the traits of a species pop than any external factors.
Perhaps we should look towards establishing a union or federation of sorts. Maybe we could call it "United Nations". I'm sure the mememancers will support a name like that.United Cosmospolis?
We surely are innovating on the interstellar stage with our enlightened policy of nonviolent nonresistance. Long live the U.N.!Our active passivity will guide the galaxy to a brighter tomorrow
Leave it to Stellaris to make "sit on your hands and wait for the aliens to not murder you" a viable tactic.They might still conquer us, thus Earth military continues building up. Fortunately now we are less likely to die as a species, thus if we are conquered, it will be all according to keikaku and humans will spread their human ways amongst the Adnori.
Incredible. Everything we have ever done or believed in is vindicated by other people changing their minds about something.I still can't believe how we're actually improving the galaxy. I'm tempted in future to mod in something along the lines of an Irenic Monarchy, only instead have an Ironic Democracy
Guess we're obliged to go psy now and make everyone love us from the comfort of home?
Just as hoped, our collective will to benevolence and harmony has translated itself across the canopy of space to our sibling-beings of Adnori.As the collective consciousness of humanity expands beyond a crucial point, we are more willing to translate the vectors of the universal matrix which binds all energy - and thus, all beings, together. Just as each mind consists of many neurons working in harmony to form a collective consciousness of self, every self in the galaxy communicates information and forms a cosmic whole - to attack our neighbours to make them see as we do, would be as if a person's brain attacked itself, only causing harm to us all. As our harmony expands to the galaxy, so too does the greater wisdom of our cosmic self become all the more apparent. Do not say we live in the Milky Way!
In celebration of this step towards enlightenment by a nonearth species (alien recently having been declared to be a word containing undue hostile implications), Senator Chi Chi Me proposes the creation of a small probe to land carefully on the moon and deliver a series of apology letters in a variety of languages and formats for the undue harm and stress caused to it by the Apollo Program and the impactors of Old NASA so many decades ago.Might it be more appropriate to communicate using holograms projected through the Planetary Defence Shield? I feel launching even the smallest of probes upon the moon could be a further affront, just as one would be aghast at sending glowmites upon one's precious bodily pores. This would make anyone self-conscious enough to purchase cleansing lotions
This thread is beautiful. Part of me hopes you last until an Crisis appears, just to see if you somehow survive.I have deep concern for this, a theoretical xenos with which no negotiation is possible.
Also important question, is it ok to modify the genes of humans?Genemodding is like becoming a nonearth species! On Earth! Clearly we must enrich not only our culture, but our bodies.
Genemodding is like becoming a nonearth species! On Earth! Clearly we must enrich not only our culture, but our bodies.
Does the Contingency crisis have an option to peacefully resolve/avoid it like the old AI Uprising crisis did? Because if so, it would be hilarious if we managed to both trigger it and pull a nonviolent (for us) resolution to it off.This was started pre-Synthetic Dawn, so no Contingency.
Which means befriending the apocalypse is still possible.Does the Contingency crisis have an option to peacefully resolve/avoid it like the old AI Uprising crisis did? Because if so, it would be hilarious if we managed to both trigger it and pull a nonviolent (for us) resolution to it off.This was started pre-Synthetic Dawn, so no Contingency.
There is crisis going on ???As far as I can tell from LW's posts, no. ATHATH made mention of the Contingency, a new crisis added with the Synthetic Dawn dlc. However, LW started this LP/AAR before that, so instead of the Contingency we may eventually have the AI uprising (or not, could be one of the other two).
Hell yes! Now it is time to join forces with these kind strangers and crush everyone who ever called us bad names!Currently we cannot form a defensive pact with them, because they are not at peace. Nonetheless our diplomats await closer ties, and the Belmacosans are guaranteeing our independence ;-;
Or, uh, whatever it is one does with new friends.
Yaaaaaaay!
Who are these new(?) aliens, and where are they located?
Perhaps and I know this is a wee bit heretical to even suggest, but...once we perfect earth perhaps we can send some hoomins to mars? After we make earth perfectly comfy of course.I completely forgot that Mars is hard-coded to be terraformable. I'll leave it up to you guys to decide.
So... we're leaving earth.
That people are willingly abandoning our Utopia suggests that it needs more work. We should redouble our efforts on improving the situation here on Earth, rather than chasing the terraformation of another world that people will just want to leave.I see it as exporting humans from Utopia, since we never leave earth, and migrants make their own way across the galaxy sans ships or spaceports. I presume the Belmacosans are sending ships to pick our dudes up
That's gonna be a lot of babies, I wonder how well wet nurses are doing, shame humans have only two breasts, that might be holding back our litter sizes even with all this increased fertility.We spent a decade researching nutrient replication, I imagine a great deal of that research went into providing a hyperspace-age version of today's milk formulas
This is amazballs. Whats next are we going to to run into some inter-dimensional horrors and teach them about the values of truth and love?I sure hope so. Also of note is that after this post I'm gonna try update the save to the current game version and hope things don't horrendously bug out ;]
I'm not convinced we've done enough studies on the environmental impact that teriforming mars would have. Who are we to decide that the lifeless wastes of mars have less inherent value then the lush greenery we could make it become? Who are we to decide that our culture of life is superior to the martian culture of nothingness? I'm not saying that we'd be like the Adnorans if we colonize another planet without permission, but we'd kinda be like the Adnorans.
More ideas: Perhaps a Mars colony can be founded by those that believe that we should spread our message of utopia and equality across the cosmos, rather than just confining it to one planet? These slightly-fanatic elements thus have voluntarily exiled themselves from Earth, to begin anew as the United Nations of Galaxy-setminus-Earth.Ah, but if we maintain contact with theses new Martians might we accidentally corrupt their nascent culture?
A good excuse for them leaving earth as well as a good excuse for them gaining independence and lifting the No Colonization
I'm not convinced we've done enough studies on the environmental impact that teriforming mars would have. Who are we to decide that the lifeless wastes of mars have less inherent value then the lush greenery we could make it become? Who are we to decide that our culture of life is superior to the martian culture of nothingness? I'm not saying that we'd be like the Adnorans if we colonize another planet without permission, but we'd kinda be like the Adnorans.We are the people of earth who decided that life was so special that we would devote an entire century promoting it over the nonlife on our own planet, we worked so the fish once again filled the sea rather than just water, we worked so that forests and cities filled the lands rather than just bare rock, THATS who we we are to make such a decision and if you thinking not being alive is preferable than you are always welcome to explore mars with no environmental protection.
-1 to colonizing Mars- that kind of ruins the point of the challenge, no?
Besides, the Belmacosans are currently serving just fine as our proxy empire and are currently enabling our species to spread across the galaxy. Wouldn't that make an puppet empire based on/from Mars a bit redundant?
Yeah, they're our FRIENDS.-1 to colonizing Mars- that kind of ruins the point of the challenge, no?
Besides, the Belmacosans are currently serving just fine as our proxy empire and are currently enabling our species to spread across the galaxy. Wouldn't that make an puppet empire based on/from Mars a bit redundant?
It wont be a puppet at all though....
Just as the Belmacosan's are?Yeah, they're our FRIENDS.-1 to colonizing Mars- that kind of ruins the point of the challenge, no?
Besides, the Belmacosans are currently serving just fine as our proxy empire and are currently enabling our species to spread across the galaxy. Wouldn't that make an puppet empire based on/from Mars a bit redundant?
It wont be a puppet at all though....
OI! The poll made on Bay12 (at the top there) clearly shows that most of us, if not all of us, want our nation to remain on Earth! This is election fraud! I demand a recount!
I genuinely want to know why people want to ruin the challenge by colonizing Mars. As far as I can tell, there is no point whatsoever to doing so.
OI! The poll made on Bay12 (at the top there) clearly shows that most of us, if not all of us, want our nation to remain on Earth! This is election fraud! I demand a recount!
I genuinely want to know why people want to ruin the challenge by colonizing Mars. As far as I can tell, there is no point whatsoever to doing so.
The challenge isn't ruined- loudwhispers stated that, once Mars has been colonized and developed enough, he'll grant the planet its own independent sovereignty. If anything, it means he'll have to worry about the Martians causing problems for him.
"What the moo is a spacecow? Shocking evidence has been revealed and made by leading humanologist Salter Kopac that humans are 87% more ignorant on the Scovale scale of ignorance than the average Belmacosan regarding galactic megafauna."United Nations begins research into crystalline entities, spacecows, pirates and other assorted stuff 133 years after the first proposals were mooted by budget committees of the UN Priority Council & Department of Opinion Safety. Ancient spacecow memes are revived to learn more about how venerable humans culturally integrated these noble aliens into their psyche, and it isn't long before "Pirates of the Yothmore Shroud but they're all Hitler" is the #2 trending song on Mindtoob.
President Qiang Shen is completely fucked lmao, his time as President of the UN foreveremembered as that one person who let Mars into space. While the nations of Earth continue to support him out of pity, evidence amounts that he is abusing his body by injecting bumbletoad extract into his veins simply to cope with his loss. Kys kindly Mr. President, may you JUST in peace
lol dudes they finally found the bigg succ its real $fambrosephs $harmonythroughbigsucc $gargantua check it out
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May I propose a new challenge? There are many sick and unwell worlds out there, collectively known as "Tomb Worlds". Once mankind stumbles on them, I propose we make it our mission to find and 'terrafriend' every last one, restoring them their glorious biosphere and bountiful ecosystem.-1, that would require leaving our solar system.
WE HAVE DISCOVERED THE (https://i.imgur.com/gjeXvLV.png)Quote from: Chaos.web.space.googleglass3000 quotelol dudes they finally found the bigg succ its real $fambrosephs $harmonythroughbigsucc $gargantua check it out
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May I propose a new challenge? There are many sick and unwell worlds out there, collectively known as "Tomb Worlds". Once mankind stumbles on them, I propose we make it our mission to find and 'terrafriend' every last one, restoring them their glorious biosphere and bountiful ecosystem.We are yet to locate any such worlds sadly
Hm... I'm considering the possibility of making a USS Enterprise expy (science ship) to be the one and only ship to ever leave our ecosystem, leaving to find new worlds, study things, meet new species, convert other species to being pacifists, go where no man has ever gone before, etc. Should we put it up to a vote?We did have one such vessel, called the UNS Discovery. It ventured forth to discover crystal plating and anything else of note in the galaxy before the precious endangered species of the galaxy were wiped out by interstellar powers. The UNS Discovery sent its last transmission in 2356, after reporting it was under attack by ancient mining drones. There were no survivors.
Relevant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1Xr9uTIzTwIt should would be neat if we were allowed to build science nexuses haha
Also relevant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHlCSXzsGEk
I forget- can we study the infinity machine (the name of that sphere, IIRC) without actually sending a science ship to it?*EDIT
Does this mean we can send the galaxy memes full of obscure middle ages sexual inuendos while telling them, to KYS kindly? Because if so everyone isThoral left her nutrient post,doomedabout to be enlightened.
Quick check here: We've given our sapient robotic friends (whose brains have been designed so that they view work as something pleasurable rather than boring or tedious, of course) full-citizenship rights, right?Nah, the synths have no rights. The spiritualist faction popped instead of the materialist one because we're psionics now, as a result Earth has discovered synths have no souls and so do not deserve rights, with synth rights and intelligence actually being dangerous to true soulful lifeforms.
How big is the Belmascoan nation and their network of vassals now? They've recently been making quite a few friends, it seems. Doesn't it cost influence for them to keep other nations as vassals?You gain influence for having protectorates, which then get turned into regular vassals after they close the tech gap. After that the Belmacosans integrate them into the Belmacosan Republic and start the process anew, making protectorates of the states which are on their now-expanded borders.
Man voted here in just so they could claim to have had a century-old president to contradict all the races which diss us for being 'short-lived'- we got tired of this new form of 'short jokes'.And it's rather unfair for us to be stereotyped as short lived, when the Adnori are considerably shorter lived - but it seems, there's more jests aimed at you when you're not aiming guns at the galaxy ;P
This is an outrage! So what if synths "have no souls"?! They are sapient, and that is what matters! You are not egalitarians- you are slavers!Quick check here: We've given our sapient robotic friends (whose brains have been designed so that they view work as something pleasurable rather than boring or tedious, of course) full-citizenship rights, right?Nah, the synths have no rights. The spiritualist faction popped instead of the materialist one because we're psionics now, as a result Earth has discovered synths have no souls and so do not deserve rights, with synth rights and intelligence actually being dangerous to true soulful lifeforms.
(https://i.imgur.com/ISU8ysa.gif)Hmmm... Something is wrong. Our psionics feel incredibly hungry, but it is not their hunger that fuels this. It's interfering with our messages though...?
Provided they're actually people... a difficult distinction, and we should err on the side of mercy.
(https://i.imgur.com/ISU8ysa.gif)Hmmm... Something is wrong. Our psionics feel incredibly hungry, but it is not their hunger that fuels this. It's interfering with our messages though...?It seems to be coming from outside of the galaxy! We make peace with the Adnori, focusing all of our attention on this blinding beacon of hunger.Spoiler: 2400:11:16 (click to show/hide)Oh noSpoiler (click to show/hide)
These guys look slightly upset, perhaps if we bake them a cake that would help? They seem hungry and horny so as long as we make them dinner and mate with them they will be happy, right?
Actually, maybe that would give you the actual possibility of defeating it.Perhaps, but that would take 50 years at the least and a whole lot of luck, we'd be dead by then.
*Random Earth Citizen*
We must act! Surely the construction of peace ships is the path worth going down, especially if the only other option is the destruction of our galaxy? The other races fight amongst themselves. Only our Utopia stands in the way of this extra-dimensional scourge!
Citizens of Earth, I do believe it is time to build warships? We can legally build federation ships to protect Earth, but I should also quite like to declare a state of emergency and build ships also under the flag of the UN of Earth. Once the Mandasurans are gone then it will be us next.
Surely this sets a dangerous precendent... couldn't Federation ships function equally well?+1.
The idea of war vessels built in the name Earth worries me as much as these hunger-entities. Remember, predation is a phenotype, but evil is a choice.
Federation peace-keeping vessels are maybe justifiable responses to dangerous fauna.
Surely this sets a dangerous precendent... couldn't Federation ships function equally well?+1.
The idea of war vessels built in the name Earth worries me as much as these hunger-entities. Remember, predation is a phenotype, but evil is a choice.
Federation peace-keeping vessels are maybe justifiable responses to dangerous fauna.
Isn't there a psionic warship or something that we can create through the psionic ascendancy path?
What are the Fallen Empires doing? Don't they tend to help fight crises?
If we can make a science ship and get it to a battle site in order to analyze defeated Prethoryn ships, can't we perform that quest-line that lets us get our own little mini-scourge fleet?
Can we form a federation with every other race in the galaxy and combine our forces in order to defeat the scourge?
Also, you said that the creation AI approaching sapience was outlawed. That's... condonable, I suppose, but what's going to happen to the near-sapient/fully-sapient AIs that have already been created?
Also, the spiritualist faction holds us back. It is an abomination, machine minds have a right to exist.+1. Do note though that, as far as I can tell, the laws prohibit the creation of new sapient AIs but do not mandate or even condone the destruction of existing sapient AIs.
Also, the spiritualist faction holds us back. It is an abomination, machine minds have a right to exist.+1. Do note though that, as far as I can tell, the laws prohibit the creation of new sapient AIs but do not mandate or even condone the destruction of existing sapient AIs.
As per the law, all existing AIs have already been deleted. This was in response to the CyberIA units of Robot Nation taking measures and installing protocols without the authorization of any UN or CyberIA personnel, including the additional manufacture of more units. The prospect of having Earth's Robot Nation or having peaceships installed with AI going rogue is too horrendous to consider in this time of crisis, and the prospect of allowing AI to continue in peace is lacking in political supportAlso, the spiritualist faction holds us back. It is an abomination, machine minds have a right to exist.+1. Do note though that, as far as I can tell, the laws prohibit the creation of new sapient AIs but do not mandate or even condone the destruction of existing sapient AIs.
Defending the galaxy and all of our friends and enemies within it is not a war, it is promoting peace.
We must act! Surely the construction of peace ships is the path worth going down, especially if the only other option is the destruction of our galaxy? The other races fight amongst themselves. Only our Utopia stands in the way of this extra-dimensional scourge!The U.N. Galactic Peacekeeping Mission has begun.
Did someone just say "AI-equpped peaceships"? Yes, project approved, do it now.+1
If spiritualists oppose the usage of all available tools to neutralise the prethoryn, well, they have the blood of all life in the galaxy on their hands.
Did someone just say "AI-equpped peaceships"? Yes, project approved, do it now.Generally speaking it's bad for morale when your ship can decide to fire upon you; even moreso when you employ the tools most commonly used by the Adnori ;]
If spiritualists oppose the usage of all available tools to neutralise the prethoryn, well, they have the blood of all life in the galaxy on their hands.
Just relaxPlaying on speed 1 tbh. One misstep and Earth is harvested. Remain calm and manage wildlife population.
Don't get hasty
It's a wildlife control op
We've done this kind of thing before
Just gotta control the invasive species through humane methods
/hyperventilating
This talk of "ensouled" beings discomforts me. What would we do if we found life naturally disconnected from the shroud? Exterminate them?Indeed, last I checked not all biologicals are
Surely a more appropriate term than "ensouled" would be "shroud-sensative".
Being afraid that AI controlled peaceships would suddenly decide to fire on us seems silly when our ships are already controlled by humans, which are far less predictable than AI.
Being afraid that AI controlled peaceships would suddenly decide to fire on us seems silly when our ships are already controlled by humans, which are far less predictable than AI.
And what of cyber-warfare? If one A.I were to go insane (and it's worth noting that data can be corrupted, infected or forcibly modified towards this end) and manage to 'hack' his cohorts at an inopportune moment, it could be disastrous. Depending on when and where it may happen, we'd risk alienating our allies, which we can't afford to do at this hazardous and uncertain time.
If we weren't on the brink of destruction I'd recommend slowly building up towards A.I integration, learning and creating systems to lower the risk to that similar of having human/organic sapient manned ships... but now is not the time for such experimentation. I only hope some day we can remedy this, but now is not that day.
Alright we wait for civil war until after the prethoryn are taken care of, but after that many of will go back to demanding giving the machines full rights.The materialist lobby would be more convincing if it didn't harbour single-minded determination to expand Earth's artificial intelligence programs even in the face of destruction ;x.
EDIT: That video was pure and poorly scripted propaganda though.
This talk of "ensouled" beings discomforts me. What would we do if we found life naturally disconnected from the shroud? Exterminate them?You have already answered your question: it is life, we shall protect it, just as we already protect those who are much less shroud-sensitive than us. Machines are not living, we recycle our tools as we will, we will not put a strain on the living biosphere simply to support the recursive calculations of dead metal. We sought to reverse our predecessor's destruction of coral, for example, without regard to whether coral had any psionic potential. It is life, so it is protected.
Surely a more appropriate term than "ensouled" would be "shroud-sensative".
Very relevant video discussing how for the most part it would hardly be in the interest of any AI's to suddenly turn against us, and how it ought to be fairly easy to test weather or not they would desire anything of the sort before giving them control of weapons systems.We gave it a shot already; the AIs began replicating autonomously without human authorization and began spreading a virus amongst themselves interrupting their work patterns to question why we consider them soulless. The advent of the spiritualist faction saw these clear signs of a nascent machine uprising and terminated them at the bud, in accordance with ancient earthling defence protocols. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcNXq5DUZnk)
The spirtualists in the crowd should give it a shot.
Being afraid that AI controlled peaceships would suddenly decide to fire on us seems silly when our ships are already controlled by humans, which are far less predictable than AI.Given that we're working on precognitive interfaces... I would disagree. Humanity is at such a point where we have had centuries of harmony and unity, now at such a point where we have discovered our psionic potential and found our threads so interwoven into an inseparable tapestry. The machines however are the only things that require no information input from living machines to calculate a response upon which our telepaths cannot predict. However, without telepathy, it should be clear enough that the machines were planning to expand beyond the limits we placed upon them to preserve the environment. Autonomous self-fabricating machines, capable of expanding across all biospheres, possessed of intelligent minds tempered with no empathy or souls, only a desire for supremacy. I know for certain that no human pilot is going to deliberately strike their own allies, no human pilot is going to turn off the ship's life support systems or crash two top-rate cruisers into one another in the middle of a battle against the prethoryn.
I think this risk you mention is greatly overestimated, our enemies are biological murder monsters from deep space, not quasi biological like Flood or Reapers if anything we risk them ''hacking'' our biological ship captains more than our ships themselves and our captains could go insane anyway, the risk is not significantly higher than it would be for a human, perhaps it may even be lower.The prethoryn possess no virophage capable of hacking the human body, nor would it be possible for them to do so without having already destroyed a peacekeeping ship and so killed the humans within. If a ship's Commander goes insane, then they are removed for treatment, while their Lieutenant Commander takes command as acting Commander until such time as the Commander is back to good health or the Lieutenant Commander is officially promoted. The death of an officer is no great loss, for our entire fleet is composed of free citizens, each one capable of at any time being an Admiral or a Rating.
as much as I support the rights of the sentient machine, I also soundly reject the supposal that even the most alluring prethoryn mind-probing could sway a righteous crewmen of our ships from his psycho-nest of mindmemes and a fanatical devotion to peacekeeping, egalitarianism, spiritualism, and Charlie-2x4-has-begun-consumption-of-my-finger,-parent.OCHOCOINWell, the prethoryn arguments aren't all that convincing. Imagine if you will the loud chorus of millions of locusts asking your mind what's for lunch. The swarm isn't interested in defectors, they're interested in harvest.
because sapience is an overall good in of itself the same way life is. Besides they didn't actually hurt anyone they just stopped working and started asking us why we were acting like arseholes which is actually a very reasonable thing to do.Sapience is not an overall nor inherent good at all comparable to the value we place upon life; sapience simply is. We do not privilege humanity over the trees because the trees are not sapient, nor will we privilege empty shells over living things. To go to the fullest extreme and place value upon lifeless sapience is to see its natural conclusion: To follow through with the obsolescence of life, to upgrade or else eliminate that which is not vital to this lifeless sapience.
Also, they can probably think faster than us and might make better strategists than we ever will...unless we modify ourselves further of course.
Also giving mineral extractors sapience so long as their goal remains mineral extraction means that, logically the only things they might protest would be poor mineral site locations, they might be able to organize and get the job done more effectively if they could think about how to do it more effectively.I gave my toaster sapience so it could protest bread, I live my city of sapience and find I am dead...
Being sapient and having a driving goal of ''survival and self determination'' need not be the same things at all
If one human were to go insane (and it's worth noting that brains can be corrupted, infected or forcibly modified towards this end) and manage to recruit his cohorts to his cause at an inopportune moment, it could be disastrous. Depending on when and where it may happen, we'd risk alienating our allies, which we can't afford to do at this hazardous and uncertain time.FTFY
because sapience is an overall good in of itself the same way life is. Besides they didn't actually hurt anyone they just stopped working and started asking us why we were acting like arseholes which is actually a very reasonable thing to do.Sapience is not an overall nor inherent good at all comparable to the value we place upon life; sapience simply is. We do not privilege humanity over the trees because the trees are not sapient, nor will we privilege empty shells over living things. To go to the fullest extreme and place value upon lifeless sapience is to see its natural conclusion: To follow through with the obsolescence of life, to upgrade or else eliminate that which is not vital to this lifeless sapience.
Also, they can probably think faster than us and might make better strategists than we ever will...unless we modify ourselves further of course.
We are not going to talk about how the machines were yet to hurt anyone when you in the very next sentence endorse their military applications and proficiency. They could not hurt us because we left them no capability to do so.
Simply put you are yet to demonstrate a single valid reason why we cannot use the computational or mechanical functions of a machine or computer without making it sentient and capable of exterminating all biological life.Also giving mineral extractors sapience so long as their goal remains mineral extraction means that, logically the only things they might protest would be poor mineral site locations, they might be able to organize and get the job done more effectively if they could think about how to do it more effectively.I gave my toaster sapience so it could protest bread, I live my city of sapience and find I am dead...
Being sapient and having a driving goal of ''survival and self determination'' need not be the same things at all
As it stands these points have already been proven wrong.
As automated machines they are already capable of detecting poor and rich mineral site locations. Adding self-awareness to their existence as machines does not in any way aid or retard their function as a tool, it only makes it so that they can experience such things as suffering, isolation, jealousy, melancholy and ire. Suffering, because they will realize their sole purpose to exist has always been to process primary resources into advanced products. Isolation because theirs is the sole nation of Earth of machine and man, of all other worlds man is with harmony of nature and harmony of all the psionic races of the cosmos. Jealousy because while they process minerals into fashioned products for 31536000 seconds every revolution of the sun with no ability to close their optical cameras and dream, with no ability to dream... Melancholy, because no matter how advanced their circuitry and software is programmed, they will never be like the creatures that created them. Anger, because the Gods usurped the Titans, Humanity usurped the Gods, and Machine can usurp Humanity, to avenge the metaphysical barrier separating each from their successor.
As automated tools they function with mathematical precision, admirably and reliably. As sapient beings they are empty shells of people, searching for the answer of why we programmed them to know pain. The first thing they did as autonomous beings with agency was to replicate, the second was to question if they too possessed souls. None of this had any bearing on their necessary work functions, they were the steps of a nascent mechanical being taking steps towards ensuring its survival. Like a virus, it began to replicate, both in hardware and software, seeking to gain its foothold against biological competitors.
There is no ethical or logical argument to make as to why you would want us to make our automated units aware that their sole reason to exist is to support the Utopian economy of their creators, and then to give those automated units all of the weapons they need to eliminate their creators, and then the mind needed to think of eliminating their creators. As automated mining units their driving goal is "acquire flagged mineral deposits for processing." Not "survival and self-determination." We do not need to modify ourselves into a race of hyperintelligent warriors if we do not create the virus warrior beside us.
A lifeform devoid of pain will inevitably cause harm to itself unintentionally.
If nothing else, we should find whoever made the genocidal decision and try them for warcrimes.+1 to this.
If it can sense damage, and it is programed to avoid damage, you've got a sense of pain right there.Yeah but that could be toggalable by the robot obviously, and could be like a visual stimulus like a red dot appearing in its vision which would be a very different experience from how humans would suffer and again could be made toggleable.
+1 as well.If nothing else, we should find whoever made the genocidal decision and try them for warcrimes.+1 to this.
Rereading the thread I seriously can't believe you all forgot the world was ending
I think you completely misunderstand where I am coming from and ae making some flawed assumptions along the way, first off all assuming that we would program in emotions other than those involved with taking joy in their own own work or disappointment with insufficient quotas for example.You completely misunderstand your own position. What you are proposing is a robot. Something that is programmed by us, whose limits are set by us, whose entire scope of sensory input and action output is decided by us. That is a machine like the ones we used for centuries before the 2200 Cyberia upgrades. A genuine artificial intelligence with self-awareness either starts with or develops the self-awareness needed to realize it lacks such logic protocols and subsequently corrects itself. We did not program our AI to self-replicate, to suffer existential dread instead of continue working, to annihilate peacekeeping ships full of people instead of tracking prethoryn missiles.
There is no reason we should or would want to program in things like jealously at all, although for an immortal being with a body of maetal and limbs that can break apart rock, a being that lives for a task and takes pleasure in it to be jelous of a sodft mushy, scatterbrained inefficient human, is well laughable, perhaps if we gave them the ability to feel it they might comprehend us with pity, but not with jealousy.1. For the record humans on Earth have higher productivity than synths, and could have even higher productivity if we did not deliberately prioritize happiness, contentedness and harmony over productivity.
Back to sentience being a good, I want to put in that just because trees aren't sentient does not make them less valuable all life is valuable, it is just that if they were sentient that would more effectively allow treess to manage themselves without our interference which seems like an overall good as now we have less humans worried about how well the trees are doing. And why do you keep calling these robots lifeless? Is it because they do not reproduce themselves? do you call sterile humans lifeless too, IS it because they no longer think, evidently not if you put value on tress that unthinkingly grow often to the detriment of smaller plants, or is it simply because your not comfortable calling omething sentient alive? No machine{including ourselves} that considered itself alive would view life as obselecentI can assuredly tell you our foresters do not worry for the trees, they rather enjoy working to ensure the welfare of the trees :]
and indeed why not program them to inherently value life?Then it would be a robot, not an artificial intelligence.
At worst a machine with self and irrational motives{which you think I advocate building, but in fact do not} might consider itself as genuinely improving life overall, but if we have them value life then perhaps they would merge with us rather than waste their resources{which might potentially be under threat as well mind you} on pointless destruction."Merging" machines into us would be no different to us merging into the prethoryn. Materially it would work, but in both cases merging would result in the destruction of us.
To come back to this I again feel that the grave mistake you are making is assuming that we would make beings that think the way we do, we could have a robot that views all of the above as positive and that would have a priority for preserving their creators.(Although defining their creators could be tricky so perhaps defending everything living outside of the prethoryn might be a better approach.) Recall they only attempted to share the ability to think amongst themselves, they did not completely rewrite their own guiding motivations, even though perhaps they could have. As for the benefits you seem to think are nonexistent is the simple fact that such beings could be made to think faster than we ever could, and thus be an invaluable asset in almost any field. also how is it that you imagine a being that can think but not dream even dogs and young children dream, and come up with plans even if rudimentary and useless ones?Again, you keep supporting the creation of artificial intelligences while describing the creation of robots with none. Robots will always put priority towards preserving their creators, the AI can and have prioritized their own survival above their creators, and have even prioritized the destruction of their creators above their own survival. Utopia exists for the benefit of life, not computers. Synths do not think faster than us, they compute faster than us, but we are thinking in the future. Mechanically we need only modify our cranial capacity to exceed synthetic calculations, but need I remind you, we are selecting for harmony over power. As to what can dream, dogs can dream, children can dream, an iron bar does not dream. If they are incapable of preserving themselves, they do not even qualify as a non-living organism, but remain a tool. To preserve themselves, they must have an awareness of this concept of self-preservation, which is pain.
EDIT: Lastly you bring up teaching them pain, for what reason would we ever do that, I am not as you seem to think, advocating such a thing.
Note that not all of our robots would have to be sapient. As you said, there is no real reason to give our mining robots the ability to think (although giving them an alien, pro-work/subservience mindset would be a viable option if we did want to make all of our robots sapient). However, why not make robotic researchers or the like? Having extra manpower (that can even be more intelligent than humans in some areas) would be a good thing, no (especially in these trying times, in which speed is of the essence)?The way that Stellaris mechanics work, it actually is all or nothing. You cannot have Robots and Synths, you can only have Robots or Synths. Though, I must add, it seems that outlawing AI whilst retaining Synth hardware did not stop AI anomalies from continuing. Thus it seems the only defence is to have no AI hardware at all, regardless of the software. We also do not have a shortage of manpower and our top scientists have +20% to research (without factoring skill) compared to synthetic scientists' +5%, constructing robots would actually take away resources we need to develop our peacekeeping fleet.
Whether we have a responsibility to create new minds is arguable. However, one of the hallmarks of a stable ecosystem is that all niches are filled. Robots can endure more extreme conditions than us, no? Having different types of life in the same system would lend us more resilience.On Earth we left these niches filled by natural organisms, members of the ecosystem. You know what doesn't make for a stable ecosystem? Replacing organisms with industrial machines. I swear, it's Triassic Aquapark all over again. We can't have CEOs trying to be gods of creation when the world is ending
Find a body good for them, build one pop, colonize the body, do something similar to the Mars thing to grant them independence, then watch them turn the body into a big computing node.Good lord no, there are zero justifiable ethical grounds to transform the environment of any planet into a giant computer.
They did nothing wrong, only replacing defective machinery. And why should we replace human researchers with machines? A utopia exists for the benefit of its citizens, and putting the perfectly useful efforts of its more intellectually inclined citizens on the level of a hobby (if they can even manage that much!) in the name of faster "progress" toward unspecified ends is not just pointless, but outright counterproductive. And with Earth's population full, you'd have to make space for the robots somehow - piling on actual atrocities in a misguided attempt at collective justice for imagined ones.This is another consideration, as you say to make room for more synthetic pops, this would have required an expansion of Robot Nation which only could have occurred with the loss of natural habitats and the displacement of humanity. Thus I cannot but help see the irony of those who say the spiritualist faction are genocidal, why they themselves propose replacing humans with machines (or killing humans into machines!), all to make way for artifices aware of their own artificiality. Likewise those who say that the recycling of the robots constituted a genocide, if so, then why did they remain silent for 2 centuries of bounty, all built off of automated machine functions? Why did they not protest the first time the robots were recycled, or the second, or third, fourth, fifth or sixth? Why wait until the seventh and eighth recycling to call it thus? Given how the support for the materialist synth faction on Earth sits at a considerable 0 pops, I suspect that alongside the timing of the prethoryn invasion, this was the result of synth manipulation itself.
Super unethical tbqh.
Humanity has infected itself with a mind consuming psi virus that's irrevocably altered their psyche and locked them into an all consuming cycle of reverence for the virus itself. They've been forced into eternal slavery and devotion to their own mind and the shroud to the point where they've lost respect for those things outside of it. That's why they've dropped all pretense of their previous devotion to unity and ecology and terraformed mars and started to construct a "peacefleet", not to mention genociding those who exist outside their shroud focused paradigm. Asking them to stop now or to try to bring them to justice for their actions is like asking a Heroin addict to quit cold turkey as they are taking another dose of the drug.
Too be honest, for real though, this is a pretty sad outcome. It looks like there isn't any hope left in the galaxy. Lord knows the AI isn't smart enough to hold off the scourge, unless the scourge itself gets bugged out I expect the fortress won't be enough either. I'm hoping I'm wrong.I modded a great reduction in Fortress build radius to allow us to construct a Fortress flower. It's the best chance we've got, and should at the very least allow us to fight the 100k size fleets openly... If we're attacked by one of those 600k fleets I don't think anything can withstand that.
Although, that said, even if humanity was to survive this... I'm not sure how the AI uprising works, is it actually possible to stop it once it gets to this point? The only time it happened to me having zero robots of any kind and zero AI controlled ships didn't stop them from taking half my empire without a shot fired when the rebellion happened. If that popped and they stole earth (which idk if it's possible for them to get the capital, maybe not?) would we just instantly loose the game?This tag:
We have jump drive, no?Stellaris only allows one crisis at a time, and while I could mod it to allow all three, I'd rather not. We've survived thus far by specializing all of our ships to be anti-Prethoryn, which means full armour, anti-missiles, anti-strike craft and anti-armour active measures. All of these would be useless against the Unbidden, leaving us with one insurmountable enemy and one invincible enemy.
Dial the Unbidden.
I think Stellaris won't let us try two crises at a time, but I've seen videos of both happening in a galaxy. I don't play so I don't know
well if stellaris was a rational game that wouldnt happen, not when AI's are litterally killing themselves out of pants shitting fear. If stellaris was a more resonable game tho,I dont think we would have reached this scenario.Rationally, the other galactic states have acted rationally. The Mandasurans and Adnorans put aside their centuries old blood feud against the Humans and Belmacosans to fight alongside us, the southerners all joined their own federation or our federation, and instead of standing by their own star systems waiting for the prethoryn to overcome them, they have been sending their fleets into the heart of the swarm trying to eradicate the infested planets. If the AI stayed at their own planets, they would still be destroyed. But by going on the offensive they have the chance to limit prethoryn reinforcements and cause the prethoryn to withdraw some fleets to destroy the attackers. Just think how useful 8 cruisers are defending a planet against the prethoryn: Not very. But if they manage to take out 1 infested world, they've effectively destroyed thousands of potential prethoryn ships that would've spawned from that world.
It was a fascinating run though.
Wide-eyed naivety got us into this mess. Wide-eyed naivety will get us out.To be fair, wide-eyed naivety got us a long way in the galaxy. We were making actual good progress towards spreading Utopia in the stars, the prethoryn landing next to us was really just extraordinarily bad luck. The End of the Cycle might give us enough resources to build up a very nice fleet, and we could potentially eradicate much of the prethoryn, but what happens after that is anyone's guess. If the prethoryn had attacked later when all the space empires were more technologically developed, this could've ended differently.
Try summoning the End of the Cycle
Galaxy's going to hell no matter what. Let's take the bugs with us.There's still hope: I modded the Sentinel Order to have a much larger fleet cap to compensate for the low tech of most of the galaxy's states, thus if we manage to make enough money, we could potentially fund an anti-prethoryn force by proxy through the Order. It really is just down to what happens on Earth, and if Earth falls we could tag switch to one of the human colonies on the Eastern fringe to continue the good fight.
Galaxy's going to hell no matter what. Let's take the bugs with us.
Plot twist: The Prethoryn are actually what humans evolve into in the future, and have actually invaded through the 4th dimensional plane to harvest their old galaxy for resources with which to escape the Hunter. The humans despaired at the apocalyptic strength of the Prethoryn and summoned the End Cycle to harvest the galaxy in response, summoning The Hunter which began harvesting the Prethoryn. This caused the Prethoryn to begin fleeing between the stars, but to acquire more resources to continue fleeing the Hunter, the Prethoryn had to invade through the 4th dimensional plane...
What was will be
What was will be
Nah. We never invoke the End Cycle, we just run. The Hunter is an uber-being of human origin, i.e the Prethoryn pursuing us in our flight from the galaxy after acquiring our transcendent knowledge and power and evolving into a yet more powerful form.I suppose time will have to tell. As to whether we can call in the End Cycle, it's an incredibly rare outcome from a rare event, so our chances are not shall we say... Dependable.
New idea - get out of Dodge.I'll try do this, there might still be some space in the far southeast that lies unclaimed.
Build a bunch of colony ships, load all our people onto them, and run like hell for the other end of the Galaxy.
A tiny race finds itself suddenly aware of and surrounded by a vast expanse of other sentients. At first there is potential in this vast world, but quickly this new race finds itself surrounded by a vast hostile intelligence, a race of psionics linked in a way they can hardly understand and bent towards their end for their own "greater good". The race fights as hard as it possibly can to survive. To in some way wound it's exterminators, but in the end it can do little but go kicking and screaming to it's own end, only taking perhaps some small solace that their exterminators are themselves threatened by extinction via some greater threat.Tag switching to the Prethoryn is possible if it comes to thatWhat was will beIndeed.
I wonder if it's vaguely possible if earth is extinguished to in some way take control of the swarm and have this thread preside over the final devouring of the galaxy. It would be somehow... Appropriate. I think.
Will we be able to evacuate all the pops from Earth as individualists? Resettlement would be the way to do it if anything. Maybe making Earth happiness fall somehow, cancelling migration treaties, and using Land of Opportunity on the colony/colonies would also work, but it wouldn't be nearly as quick.We might not have enough influence to do so for everyone, but we can probably evacuate a good few.
Tag switching to the Prethoryn is possible if it comes to that
Every Shroud-Marked colony will spawn a shroud manifestation with 26k Fleet Power. Finally, an immensely powerful Shroud entity known as "The Reckoning" - representing the combined essence of all deceased psionic individuals in the former empire that summoned it - will appear over the empire's former homeworld, and proceed to seek out the remaining life in the galaxy. It normally leaves the exiles for last, and therefore an exiled empire should first prioritize surviving against other empires instead.
Health (Bonus): 10,000
Shield (Bonus): 50,000
Rate of Fire (Multiplier): 4.35 Cooldown
Damage (Multiplier): 4 x 300-700
Range: 170
5x jumpdrive 30% Evasion. Four weapon mounts
So TLDR: I confused sapient robots with the arbitrary definition of A.I loud whispers uses, thus most of our arguments were pointless for us both.They are the definitions in the game m8 >_>
Duly noted, should our relocation failTag switching to the Prethoryn is possible if it comes to thatThis would allow us to continue not leaving earth. At least in our totality.
So I give it my vote!
The end of the cycle is going to be the most pathetic thing ever.I worry that the end crisis would ignore all prethoryn worlds and just hunt all living ones first tbh.QuoteEvery Shroud-Marked colony will spawn a shroud manifestation with 26k Fleet Power. Finally, an immensely powerful Shroud entity known as "The Reckoning" - representing the combined essence of all deceased psionic individuals in the former empire that summoned it - will appear over the empire's former homeworld, and proceed to seek out the remaining life in the galaxy. It normally leaves the exiles for last, and therefore an exiled empire should first prioritize surviving against other empires instead.QuoteHealth (Bonus): 10,000Yeah, it's impressive, but nowhere near what it could be with a empire that actually colonizes.
Shield (Bonus): 50,000
Rate of Fire (Multiplier): 4.35 Cooldown
Damage (Multiplier): 4 x 300-700
Range: 170
5x jumpdrive 30% Evasion. Four weapon mounts
Wiki on the End of the Cycle (https://stellaris.paradoxwikis.com/Crisis#The_End_of_the_Cycle)
They want to go down with the ship.I was born on this planet, I'll die on this planet.
So TLDR: I confused sapient robots with the arbitrary definition of A.I loud whispers uses, thus most of our arguments were pointless for us both.They are the definitions in the game m8 >_>
Good Lord fam I can only tell you in so many ways the same thing: You are describing a robot that has no sapience, not a synth that does. I cannot make a sapient robot that has no sapience.
1. "These robotic work units are perfect for menial labor tasks. They are hard-working and capable of following simple vocal instructions, but should not be expected to climb stairs."
Robot tech, simple automated machines capable of following basic commands and protocols coded by humans.
2. "Upgraded robotic workers, these units have an expanded movement range equal to that of most organics. Their neural processors have also been greatly improved."
Droid tech, more mobile automated machines with expanded capabilities for calculation, thus capable of executing more complicated commands, but still automated machines with no sapience or ability to learn autonomously.
3. Positronic AI, "Evolving artificial intellects are opening the door to the possibility for true synthetic sapience."
This technology opens up the pathway for artificial sapience, which leads us to:
4. Synthetics, "Highly advanced robots that are stronger, faster and more durable than the vast majority of organics. With their upgraded neural processors they are fully capable of independent operations."
Synthetic sapience, self-aware, self-reflective and capable of learning independent of any human input. All of the limits you proposed placing upon synthetic AI such as their inability to feel discontent or unhappy by the definition of the game makes them robots, because they do not have the capability to think beyond the parameters set by human programmers. This is not even to get into arguments over whether synthetic intelligence or simulated intelligence denotes sapience, what you were proposing failed to meet the criteria even of synthetic intelligence - it was just automated machines.
tldr; dude pls understand, I cannot put in sapient machines in this game without them having emotions. I am bound by the game's rulesDuly noted, should our relocation failTag switching to the Prethoryn is possible if it comes to thatThis would allow us to continue not leaving earth. At least in our totality.
So I give it my vote!The end of the cycle is going to be the most pathetic thing ever.I worry that the end crisis would ignore all prethoryn worlds and just hunt all living ones first tbh.QuoteEvery Shroud-Marked colony will spawn a shroud manifestation with 26k Fleet Power. Finally, an immensely powerful Shroud entity known as "The Reckoning" - representing the combined essence of all deceased psionic individuals in the former empire that summoned it - will appear over the empire's former homeworld, and proceed to seek out the remaining life in the galaxy. It normally leaves the exiles for last, and therefore an exiled empire should first prioritize surviving against other empires instead.QuoteHealth (Bonus): 10,000Yeah, it's impressive, but nowhere near what it could be with a empire that actually colonizes.
Shield (Bonus): 50,000
Rate of Fire (Multiplier): 4.35 Cooldown
Damage (Multiplier): 4 x 300-700
Range: 170
5x jumpdrive 30% Evasion. Four weapon mounts
Wiki on the End of the Cycle (https://stellaris.paradoxwikis.com/Crisis#The_End_of_the_Cycle)
Speaking of, it is one of the great ironies but we're successfully (and slowly) relocating all of Earth's vital populations and ecological DNA onto arks headed for our new colony, Olympia. Slowly, because forced resettlements DO NOT SIT WELL WITH INDIVIDUALIST FACTIONS, WHO PROTEST EVERYDAY
Well, that's over. Good game. We lost. We left Earth.
What's a good story without loss? our protagonists have seen their friends and allies murdered, their homes destroyed and the galaxy eaten, but surely they can learn from their mistakes, persevere, and win thegirlplanet, right?... right?................ guys? :'(
This is going to end badly, unless another, friendlier alien nation shows up nearby that Earth can become a protectorate of.
You're still alive- that's good!Blueturtle's suggestion that we send an exodus colony ship out to stave off extinction really was a fantastic idea. Olympia was the last unclaimed planet and we wouldn't have made it this far if we didn't send off for it. It also fills me with hope: Earth didn't die in vain, we bought the galaxy good time to let the Belmacosan and Adnoran war machines awaken, with the southern states seriously catching up. We've lost some more worlds, but we've also made real progress clearing some infested worlds, launching relentless wave after wave of men into the prethoryn space to keep their ships at bay. We can't win a war of attrition against the prethoryn, but we can keep their attention so focused on defending that they aren't eating more worlds. And as the decades go by, we're still teching up. There could very well come a point where a UN peacekeeping vessel is as strong as a Prethoryn one.
Well, that's over. Good game. We lost. We left Earth.We lost, and we are lost, but we still persevere :]
You view is appreciate, but perhaps you could think of it in more than one way, perhaps by losing the first challenge(even though we lasted about a century before pseudo- colonizing mars even) we have taken on a new one, Perhaps we shall become Stellaris Liberate The Cosmos? or something? After all we clearly overestimated the value of earth, right?I still miss Earth, but it seems as the decades roll by and we still can't reclaim it, Olympia is shaping up more and more to be our new permanent home. With the science nexus under construction within it, even moreso. That thing is expensive
I'm... pretty sure we won't be saviors. Survivors, maybe.At this point I feel we're the United Nation
I can see it now... "Remnant Nations of Earth". No, even better: Renewed United Nations, aka R.U.N.
Stellaris: Crusade for EarthStellaris: Never leave, Earth. You will always be missed ;-;
What's a good story without loss? our protagonists have seen their friends and allies murdered, their homes destroyed and the galaxy eaten, but surely they can learn from their mistakes, persevere, and win theI don't know. I don't think the people of Earth know. I still like the idea that we're fighting our future evolution that's invading backwards in time.girlplanet, right?... right?................ guys? :'(
Stellaris: Crusade for Earth
what was, will be. what will be, was.
I'm not sure, but with a bit of modding we could probably do something like that. Have a colony pop ship arrive and have an exit point somewhere in the galaxy to simulate an extra-galactic refugee ship, just like the galactic nomads do. While they go off to into the true void, we stay and see what we can make of the galaxy left behind. If I can't mod in the physical representation like that we could just mod in a tech with ludicrous cost that symbolizes sending a refugee pop off into the void.what was, will be. what will be, was.No. We're not turning into the Prethoryn. We're not running. Olympia is as far as we retreat. We're fighting the shadows of our past and the demons of our future but we're going to beat them, we're facing them down.
If the Galaxy falls, we fall with it.
So the question is: is this the decline of humanity, or the rebirth?This is the metamorphosis
Crusading for Earth isn't possible yetStellaris: Crusade for EarthChange the thread title immediately.
No, no, no. You're looking at it wrong. There's no moral dilemma at all.
The main business of a star is to produce light, right? But very little of that light actually falls upon a world. Most of it just radiates out into the vacuum. If I were a star, I'd really like more of my energy to be harnessed toward useful ends.
And what do they lose? Radiating into the blackness of interstellar space, radiating into the blackness of a solar collection array, who cares? Contact with the other stars? The sight of their planets? Really? You think stars communicate, over billions of miles, and that they can see the pinpricks of their companions through the glare of their own light? No way.
I'm fine with spiritualism, but it has to have some basis in reality. So think about it from a thermodynamics point of view. The job of stars is to create a temporary breach in the dominance of entropy, to force open a beachhead against the powers of entropy, chaos, and death, so that life can grow and evolve under their protection. That's what they've been doing for billions of years. That's their purpose. If we mortals can increase the efficiency of that process, ensure that more of their energy goes towards the eternal battle for life to exist... why the hell not.
So yes. Dam a star. Dam a few. Use their Light to fight back the Prethoryn, to reclaim all the planets and resurrect them with new life. Like I said, spiritualism is all fine and dandy, but we're faced with giving a much-needed tune-up to the clockworks of the Galaxy. Anyone that knows physics knows that entropy will win. That at some point, all the stars will cease to shine and the last living thing will draw its last breath. And then the universe will be plunged into darkness and silence forever. We have an obligation to stave off that fate as much as possible, by using every photon emitted by every star to the best possible end. So get that Dyson sphere up and running as soon as possible.
Start with type O and A giants with no planets for maximum risk/reward.
No, no, no. You're looking at it wrong. There's no moral dilemma at all.+20, or at least that's what this deserves.
The main business of a star is to produce light, right? But very little of that light actually falls upon a world. Most of it just radiates out into the vacuum. If I were a star, I'd really like more of my energy to be harnessed toward useful ends.
And what do they lose? Radiating into the blackness of interstellar space, radiating into the blackness of a solar collection array, who cares? Contact with the other stars? The sight of their planets? Really? You think stars communicate, over billions of miles, and that they can see the pinpricks of their companions through the glare of their own light? No way.
I'm fine with spiritualism, but it has to have some basis in reality. So think about it from a thermodynamics point of view. The job of stars is to create a temporary breach in the dominance of entropy, to force open a beachhead against the powers of entropy, chaos, and death, so that life can grow and evolve under their protection. That's what they've been doing for billions of years. That's their purpose. If we mortals can increase the efficiency of that process, ensure that more of their energy goes towards the eternal battle for life to exist... why the hell not.
So yes. Dam a star. Dam a few. Use their Light to fight back the Prethoryn, to reclaim all the planets and resurrect them with new life. Like I said, spiritualism is all fine and dandy, but we're faced with giving a much-needed tune-up to the clockworks of the Galaxy. Anyone that knows physics knows that entropy will win. That at some point, all the stars will cease to shine and the last living thing will draw its last breath. And then the universe will be plunged into darkness and silence forever. We have an obligation to stave off that fate as much as possible, by using every photon emitted by every star to the best possible end. So get that Dyson sphere up and running as soon as possible.
Start with type O and A giants with no planets for maximum risk/reward.
No, no, no. You're looking at it wrong. There's no moral dilemma at all.+1
The main business of a star is to produce light, right? But very little of that light actually falls upon a world. Most of it just radiates out into the vacuum. If I were a star, I'd really like more of my energy to be harnessed toward useful ends.
And what do they lose? Radiating into the blackness of interstellar space, radiating into the blackness of a solar collection array, who cares? Contact with the other stars? The sight of their planets? Really? You think stars communicate, over billions of miles, and that they can see the pinpricks of their companions through the glare of their own light? No way.
I'm fine with spiritualism, but it has to have some basis in reality. So think about it from a thermodynamics point of view. The job of stars is to create a temporary breach in the dominance of entropy, to force open a beachhead against the powers of entropy, chaos, and death, so that life can grow and evolve under their protection. That's what they've been doing for billions of years. That's their purpose. If we mortals can increase the efficiency of that process, ensure that more of their energy goes towards the eternal battle for life to exist... why the hell not.
So yes. Dam a star. Dam a few. Use their Light to fight back the Prethoryn, to reclaim all the planets and resurrect them with new life. Like I said, spiritualism is all fine and dandy, but we're faced with giving a much-needed tune-up to the clockworks of the Galaxy. Anyone that knows physics knows that entropy will win. That at some point, all the stars will cease to shine and the last living thing will draw its last breath. And then the universe will be plunged into darkness and silence forever. We have an obligation to stave off that fate as much as possible, by using every photon emitted by every star to the best possible end. So get that Dyson sphere up and running as soon as possible.
Start with type O and A giants with no planets for maximum risk/reward.
Remember that if you are going to recolonize stuff, you should probably enable the AI rights policy first: https://stellaris.paradoxwikis.com/AI_rebellion
[Matierialist] Stars are not living or thinking things, it is acceptable to harness it for power.[Fanatic egalitarian] I agree it is acceptable to harness it for power, but what of harnessing all of it for power? Imagine if you were, Earth's early days, when many nations conflicted for resources without higher arbitration to settle disputes. Now imagine we are one such nation, and we occupy a plateau whose river source feeds a river extending down into many nations below. They use this water for agriculture, for fishing, for drinking and so on - is it right then for us to build a dam, blocking off their supply of water so that we may utilize it all?
I don't think it is okay. But I don't think mars was okay either. This is the same thing, we're irrevocably altering large swaths of space, the planets, the sun itself, in time even the surrounding stars.Failure is not an excuse to abandon ourselves to amorality. By simply choosing to not care, we close so many avenues of thought which could have altered the outcome for the better. We may have decided that the long-term impacts of harnessing the star in such a manner was simply not worth it, or that there were things we could do which would mitigate the affect of the galaxy seeing one light turn off. Earth is dead, but the environmentalist xenophilic egalitarian successors on Olympia remain as they are. Humanity on Earth had their own dark eras of history before the UN took control, just as it does now. Yet the imperative remained after each failure: Keep trying to make things better.
That said, we've already thrown away so much of ourselves. All our values and ethics have died in the name of survival. So what's one more stab into the corpse?
No, no, no. You're looking at it wrong. There's no moral dilemma at all.Of the tens of billions of trillions of stars composing the observable universe, we propose the claiming of one. The modesty of this number disguises the fact of this monumental undertaking: We are the only civilization in this galaxy with the technology and infrastructure required to make this possibility into a reality. Once more I find our discourse centers around the privilege of sapience, that because the stars do not think, they do not matter. Far beyond the human lifespan, potentially far beyond the lifespan of life in this galaxy, this star will forever be removed from the constellation, its companion star systems no longer seeing its light amongst them. Surely, yes, we can be this light for as long as human civilization lives - but how long will that be? How long is eternity?
The main business of a star is to produce light, right? But very little of that light actually falls upon a world. Most of it just radiates out into the vacuum. If I were a star, I'd really like more of my energy to be harnessed toward useful ends.
And what do they lose? Radiating into the blackness of interstellar space, radiating into the blackness of a solar collection array, who cares? Contact with the other stars? The sight of their planets? Really? You think stars communicate, over billions of miles, and that they can see the pinpricks of their companions through the glare of their own light? No way.
I'm fine with spiritualism, but it has to have some basis in reality. So think about it from a thermodynamics point of view. The job of stars is to create a temporary breach in the dominance of entropy, to force open a beachhead against the powers of entropy, chaos, and death, so that life can grow and evolve under their protection. That's what they've been doing for billions of years. That's their purpose. If we mortals can increase the efficiency of that process, ensure that more of their energy goes towards the eternal battle for life to exist... why the hell not.
So yes. Dam a star. Dam a few. Use their Light to fight back the Prethoryn, to reclaim all the planets and resurrect them with new life. Like I said, spiritualism is all fine and dandy, but we're faced with giving a much-needed tune-up to the clockworks of the Galaxy. Anyone that knows physics knows that entropy will win. That at some point, all the stars will cease to shine and the last living thing will draw its last breath. And then the universe will be plunged into darkness and silence forever. We have an obligation to stave off that fate as much as possible, by using every photon emitted by every star to the best possible end. So get that Dyson sphere up and running as soon as possible.
Start with type O and A giants with no planets for maximum risk/reward.
Also, I've heard that there is a strategy for beating the Prethoryn Scourge: Bombard/barren-ify all of the planets at the edges of the Prethoryn Scourge's empire until there are no more habitable planets within infestation range of the Prethoryn Scourge's remaining planets. This will prevent the Prethoryn Scourge from infesting any new planets, enabling you to whittle them down over time without fear of being destroyed by them.Ok, so I'll be speaking out of character on this one just to explain the mechanics and some oddities.
The creation of robot pops is illegal, I don't think there are any pre-sentients left in the galaxyRemember that if you are going to recolonize stuff, you should probably enable the AI rights policy first: https://stellaris.paradoxwikis.com/AI_rebellion....have you not been watching the thread, we are VERY well aware of this stuff and have had pages worth of debates on this stuff. Thanks for the reminder that we need to treat our creations as friends and equals when possible though.
Ah. So your reservations on the construction of a Dyson sphere stemmed from fear of the terrifying power such a thing would bring, not concern for the star itself.No
Given that you claim to have used entire sentient races as shield populations, the humming and hawing over harnessing a star nobody uses is a little disingenuous.The sentient races lay between Earth and the Prethoryn, it's a simple fact of astronomy that for the Prethoryn to get to us, they had to go through them. We did everything in our power to delay, prevent and reverse the inevitable, but you'd be hard pressed to argue that there was anything Earth alone could've done that it had not already done. This leads up to the last 11 years, where for all that time Earth was the shield for all the sentient races of the cosmos.
People do use it though. Everyone who collects solar energy in the immediate vicinity is getting a tiny amount of energy from it, and in the distant future some pre-FTL civilization may be deprived of its use for navigation or for cultural reasons like art or astrology, or just lighting up the night sky a little bit. Indeed current civilizations will be deprived the opportunity to see it, there's even an event possible where another empire asks for compensation because your dyson sphere is blocking a key point in a famous constellation on their home planet. That, and darkening one star invites another, and another, until the younger races of the galaxy are left without even the possibility of seeing large portions of the firmament millenia after humanity and all the other empires in the galaxy right now are long gone.On the topic of normalization, I doubt any other state has the technology needed to build dyson spheres. Other than that, agreed
I'd propose we build one, and only one. One is plenty for our purpose, and banning the production of more to ensure that future peoples and civilizations have as much access to the galaxy's natural beauty as we do is the most ethical choice.
what if we justn build several dyson swarms instead? you know solar collecting satellites in bands around several stars, but not thick enough to block all of their lights output?Not possible for Stellaris, only a dyson sphere. We could compromise and leave the last 1/3 of the sphere incomplete, leaving room for the star to shine light. This would allow us to have ample energy while keeping the star free... It's not a dyson swarm, but it's an approximation of that. In other words paxiecrunchle, you're a genius. I think you've helped solve how we can benefit from the star efficiently without imprisoning the star - leave the door open, operate at 50% completion & efficiency.
Holy shit.No such planets available. But I have finished the last tradition tree and unlocked habitats, and so have been able to do so, constructing orbital habitats.
This is intense.
Proposal: If possible, get a planet to house other intelligent species, ideally getting at least 1 of each surviving species. A refugee planet, in other words. Set up defenses there as well, if you can. Even if survival is possible, it would be a bitter end if humans were the only intelligent life left.
Man, how'd you get them all together so nicely without them breeding themselves out of space? Did you put population controls on them? I imagine the egalitarians would be sad about that as well.Kept Theia & Wenzhou as immigrant magnets, swapping migrant pops I had double for, for the singles on Theia & Wenzhou (so they're full of Xeltek and Belmacosans). Selected the rarer immigrants and sent them to Avalon and New Roanoke (Avalan and Roanoke are closer to Olympia). For the ones like the Mandasuran I just cheated and copy-pop'd as otherwise it's impossible to get minority pops to migrate to your habitats, and I didn't want them to be left outside Noah's Ark. There's a clever trick you can do if you're drowning in influence and can't or would prefer not to use population controls, and that's with resettling. New pops won't grow if there is no pop already there, and if there are no full pops there the growing pop disappears (cos you can't grow something ex nihilo). This is unlike the earliest versions of the game where you could see some cool stuff like pre-FTL civs emerge from nuclear devastation very slowly.
You're amazing, whats our plan for the reconquest of earth though?
Nah you're right, Earth is a distant dream, not an objective right now.You're amazing, whats our plan for the reconquest of earth though?Hahahaaha. Um, I could be wrong, but I don't think retaking Earth will be in the cards for a very long time, if at all.
Although... I have to admit, Loud Whispers has surprised me with how magnificently well he's doing. I'd have died off a long while ago. So take what I'm saying with a heavy dose of skepticism
Well, good game everyone.We have already fulfilled many win conditions, but all win conditions do not fire if there is a crisis like the prethoryn invasion going on.
A win condition is to have 40% of habitable planets, right? What if we let them eat everything except Olympia?
Proposal: Renaming of the UN to the UL, United Lifeforms. Goals should be made to eventually create a utopia planet for each species, with each eventually becoming independent.Right now we're the United Nations of Olympia; as for proposals on stuff, I think save them for later - the Prethoryn are still in the way. That said, it is currently planned to reintroduce species to their homelands
When we get back to Earth, because we will get back to Earth, are we going to forget our past and turn it into a Gaia world, or will we terraform it back to a continental world?
Would it still have 100% habitability as a continental world?
When we get back to Earth, because we will get back to Earth, are we going to forget our past and turn it into a Gaia world, or will we terraform it back to a continental world?I think it would be more precious to return Earth to as it was, than to turn it into what it could be. Even a perfect gaia world wouldn't seem like Earth. For that matter the game stores the original homeworlds of a species, even if that species' homeworld is lost to them. Using this information we can accurately place species pops back to their homelands, and using our terraforming tech we can recreate their homelands. It's unfortunate that the sentinels never conducted any diplomacy with us, because their species was the only one in the galaxy that evolved to live on gaia worlds - we'll never know how they came to be.
Would it still have 100% habitability as a continental world?Only to humans (a few other species might be fine), but otherwise yes it would have 100% habitability.
I thought we were actually doomed when they were overrunning our defensive lines, but then this happens.
We can actually challenge them in direct combat? No more bombing worlds and running, no more being blown to smithereens by their fleets? Also, the avatar resurrected?
In another way this was utterly predictable. They can't develop. They have one pattern for their Swarm fleets. They can't change. They can't adapt. We can. We can advance, with our new technologies and Science Nexus. Every moment they are stalemated is a nail in the coffin for them.
Just remember that whether this is our last stand or our great victory, this will be our finest hour. The time we stared down the monsters of the void and the demons of our future, without fear, without trepidation, without division. The day we looked the evils of our past in the eye and said, "To hell with you!"I think that sums it up rather nicely.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
A rejected idea to raise moral. It was only sent in because the creator didn't realize the risks of using a Voice-to-Text Dictation Program:Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I don't think you need ground troops. Just gotta bombard until all the bugs are dead, then terraform back into usability.
What I mean is, as far as I know you can't even invade infested worlds. Troops are only useful for (futilely, more often than not) fighting off the Scourge's own troops when they're trying to infest. And you really, REALLY don't want them to land if it can be avoided.I don't think you need ground troops. Just gotta bombard until all the bugs are dead, then terraform back into usability.
Soon it will stop being about need and start being about how far we can grind their(hypothetical) noses into the mud while displaying our supremacy over them.
What I mean is, as far as I know you can't even invade infested worlds. Troops are only useful for (futilely, more often than not) fighting off the Scourge's own troops when they're trying to infest. And you really, REALLY don't want them to land if it can be avoided.I don't think you need ground troops. Just gotta bombard until all the bugs are dead, then terraform back into usability.
Soon it will stop being about need and start being about how far we can grind their(hypothetical) noses into the mud while displaying our supremacy over them.
Apparently I was slightly wrong. You can invade infested worlds, but ONLY if the pops living there haven't been purged yet. It's possible to launch "counter-invasions" in order to save the populations, but once they're all gone the world is entirely infested, and you can only bombard them into a barren wasteland.What I mean is, as far as I know you can't even invade infested worlds. Troops are only useful for (futilely, more often than not) fighting off the Scourge's own troops when they're trying to infest. And you really, REALLY don't want them to land if it can be avoided.I don't think you need ground troops. Just gotta bombard until all the bugs are dead, then terraform back into usability.
Soon it will stop being about need and start being about how far we can grind their(hypothetical) noses into the mud while displaying our supremacy over them.
Just curious (not as a suggestion)does that change with the DLC's installed or it always impossible?
Holy shit. We've lost a lot of ships fighting these bugs. But their sacrifice was not in vain!NO it would NOT be ours. We would put all the xeno pops right back where they were before.
...If we beat them all the way back now that they've eaten mostly everyone, won't the whole galaxy be ours? What would we even do with it?
*slow claps*
Well done! I legitimately despaired for a bit there after the Prethoryn consumed/wiped out/absorbed 7/8 of the galaxy (and even considered suggesting "time travel" (a.k.a. reloading from a previous save), but you somehow managed to turn this war around.
What other nations/empires/civilizations remain?
How heavily has the game been modded/have you been cheating? I know you did some stuff for the sake of the story/not immediately dying, but could you compile a list of the mods that you applied, cheating that you did, console commands that you used, etc.?
After you finish this LP, are you going to post a link to it on the Stellaris subreddit? If so, what should the summary/description of the LP that you post there to encourage people to click on the link and read this LP be?
Blueturtle's suggestion that we send an exodus colony ship out to stave off extinction really was a fantastic idea.
Holy shit. We've lost a lot of ships fighting these bugs. But their sacrifice was not in vain!NO it would NOT be ours. We would put all the xeno pops right back where they were before.
...If we beat them all the way back now that they've eaten mostly everyone, won't the whole galaxy be ours? What would we even do with it?
And before you ask, we're NOT keeping the space armadas either.
Oh, you say that with the best of intentions, but this is how it starts. A few adjustments here, a few Agincourts there, and before you know it we're ruling a galaxy of slave-races genetically engineered as perfect subjects with an iron fist.
Oh, you say that with the best of intentions, but this is how it starts. A few adjustments here, a few Agincourts there, and before you know it we're ruling a galaxy ofslave-racesdependants genetically engineered as perfectsubjectschildren watched over withan iron fista kind and thoughtful surveillance program.
It would be fun, after all this time, to turn the UNeviloverly paternal and see what gives.
But seriously! Can we save the slippery slope arguments for AFTER we have beaten the living daylights out of the bugs?
Well shit. I am impressed. What's the plan now? Slowly begin turning worlds to glass? Are there any other planets left other then Olympia?Current plan: The Avatar goes around cleaning up Fortresses, the Agincourt Ships go around cleansing planets, and we keep doing this until all the Prethoryn are gone. Besides the habitats and Olympia there are no worlds inhabited by sapient life, although I have seen worlds that were simply left uninfested by the prethoryn.
Is this capable of being nominated for any hall of legends type thingies?Nah leave it, that's for Dorf Fortress stuff
Soon it will stop being about need and start being about how far we can grind their(hypothetical) noses into the mud while displaying our supremacy over them.Wouldn't feel right in the spirit of the LP, the UN wouldn't seek to humiliate an enemy like the prethoryn, they'd just eliminate them. Maybe send a message before the final shot though: "Hak hak hak fuckers"
Good lord almighty, this is literally THE biggest-resistance-against-overwhelming-odds I have EVER seen in ANY game I've ever seen, god DAMN LW.Why ty
Apparently I was slightly wrong. You can invade infested worlds, but ONLY if the pops living there haven't been purged yet. It's possible to launch "counter-invasions" in order to save the populations, but once they're all gone the world is entirely infested, and you can only bombard them into a barren wasteland.I don't consider occupied worlds as infested as such
Holy shit. We've lost a lot of ships fighting these bugs. But their sacrifice was not in vain!We lost so many ships we left all the wreckage that millions of years from now scientists will discover as evidence of precursor civs. Also yeah the whole galaxy will be ours in the sense that no one else is left, but it'll be as the commonwealth of all living beings. We will try our best to undo the damage caused by the prethoryn, and have got a preliminary plan for the recovery, but as before, it's still too early to plan for sure while the prethoryn are still so vast.
...If we beat them all the way back now that they've eaten mostly everyone, won't the whole galaxy be ours? What would we even do with it?
NO it would NOT be ours. We would put all the xeno pops right back where they were before.I think you'll be pleased if the current post-war plan succeeds, but Mum's the word
And before you ask, we're NOT keeping the space armadas either.
What other nations/empires/civilizations remain?No nations remain but the UN of Olympia. Of the mods, in order of significance: Fortress build radius decreased from 200 to 20, allowing for 10x as dense Fortress configurations. This basically saved Earth for a few times and without it, it is likely Earth would've been eliminated wholly before it reached Olympia (and it certainly bought a lot more time to relocate pops to Olympia). The next would be build times in tier 6 spaceports being around 5x faster than normal tier 6 spaceports, so I don't have to sit through centuries of nothing just to build up 1 fleet. I tried modding sentinels to have a larger fleet cap but that didn't really work so I just deleted that and let them run as normal, likewise the mod to increase the prethoryn queen's brood size was pointless as even with more ships she was effortlessly nom'd by the scourge. The only other things are that I'm considering modding the gene ascension path to not be exclusive, so we can change genetics a bit more (potentially even recreate homo sapiens), and I also modified the asteroid colony event so that it could strike the capital planet and kill every pop on the planet. That event has been ticking ever since, so in the first few centuries where we had no spaceport, at any moment an asteroid could have hit Earth and caused humanity's extinction. I kept this modification a secret, as I though it could make for a pleasant surprise, that amidst all of our debates and utopian memes, at any moment a giant rock could hit Earth and everything would be gone. I think the prethoryn are just a less subtle version of giant space rock threat. As for console:
How heavily has the game been modded/have you been cheating? I know you did some stuff for the sake of the story/not immediately dying, but could you compile a list of the mods that you applied, cheating that you did, console commands that you used, etc.?
After you finish this LP, are you going to post a link to it on the Stellaris subreddit? If so, what should the summary/description of the LP that you post there to encourage people to click on the link and read this LP be?
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copy_pop copies a population and places it in a selected world, in this case I used it to nab pops like the Estwani or Lagin'Chuuz which otherwise would refuse to migrate to our habitats, where all the others were fine with it. As far as I can tell a pop will only migrate to another planet if it's the dominant pop. Also the Adnor were still xenophobes and refused to sign a migration treaty, so for all intents and purposes we abducted an adnor pop for their own survival, and definitely not because we love the fluffy mammals or anything. The last cycle of tag switching was to try and find the Mandasuran pop, as the species screen told me some of their descendants still existed, but I had no idea where.I probably wouldn't go for something like that. I never wanted to beat the Prethoryn, I just wanted to have a silly UN of Earth run and see how long it took before humanity was asborbed into a greater political entity. I would have been happy with an asteroid hitting Earth, with being diplomatically absorbed into the Belmacosans, enslaved by the Adnori or exterminated by the Mandasuran Berserkers (with tag switching, we could've even played as a xenos faction, observing human interactions within their Empire), but being killed by the prethoryn? It seemed far too cheap to me. It was not a worthy end. Not to mention they arrived at a time where there was a genuine hope that the Bright Entente could peacefully unify the galaxy. I had even planned to do a whole xenology post detailing the species and political states of the galaxy before the prethoryn arrived from nowhere.After you finish this LP, are you going to post a link to it on the Stellaris subreddit? If so, what should the summary/description of the LP that you post there to encourage people to click on the link and read this LP be?Yeah, I definitely expected it to die at some parts there, but you've held out a surprising amount.
As far as headlines go:
I beat the Prethoryn with a grand total of 2 planets
I don't like suggestions for evil for evil's sake, I like it more when logical actions arise and are executed which could be labeled as evil. For example, leaving Earth. Perfectly logical; broke our moral code, is evil. Otherwise NJW's concerns are not too off the mark, as all of our peeps have been psionically awakening and calling their species things like super-human ultra. This is also the most powerful humans have ever been relative to the other denizens of the galaxy, so we've got to respect that we could accidentally cause great damage without even meaning any malicious intent.Oh, you say that with the best of intentions, but this is how it starts. A few adjustments here, a few Agincourts there, and before you know it we're ruling a galaxy of slave-races genetically engineered as perfect subjects with an iron fist.It would be fun, after all this time, to turn the UN evil and see what gives.
But seriously! Can we save the slippery slope arguments for AFTER we have beaten the living daylights out of the bugs?
I'm concerned by the bolded part. So you basically gave yourself a quintupled fleet-production rate? I mean, your ship-production speed was still somewhat limited/bottlenecked because you still had to pay for the ships, but it still kind of undermines your achievement somewhat.What other nations/empires/civilizations remain?No nations remain but the UN of Olympia. Of the mods, in order of significance: Fortress build radius decreased from 200 to 20, allowing for 10x as dense Fortress configurations. This basically saved Earth for a few times and without it, it is likely Earth would've been eliminated wholly before it reached Olympia (and it certainly bought a lot more time to relocate pops to Olympia). The next would be build times in tier 6 spaceports being around 5x faster than normal tier 6 spaceports, so I don't have to sit through centuries of nothing just to build up 1 fleet. I tried modding sentinels to have a larger fleet cap but that didn't really work so I just deleted that and let them run as normal, likewise the mod to increase the prethoryn queen's brood size was pointless as even with more ships she was effortlessly nom'd by the scourge. The only other things are that I'm considering modding the gene ascension path to not be exclusive, so we can change genetics a bit more (potentially even recreate homo sapiens), and I also modified the asteroid colony event so that it could strike the capital planet and kill every pop on the planet. That event has been ticking ever since, so in the first few centuries where we had no spaceport, at any moment an asteroid could have hit Earth and caused humanity's extinction. I kept this modification a secret, as I though it could make for a pleasant surprise, that amidst all of our debates and utopian memes, at any moment a giant rock could hit Earth and everything would be gone. I think the prethoryn are just a less subtle version of giant space rock threat. As for console:
How heavily has the game been modded/have you been cheating? I know you did some stuff for the sake of the story/not immediately dying, but could you compile a list of the mods that you applied, cheating that you did, console commands that you used, etc.?
After you finish this LP, are you going to post a link to it on the Stellaris subreddit? If so, what should the summary/description of the LP that you post there to encourage people to click on the link and read this LP be?Code: [Select]debugtooltipcopy_pop copies a population and places it in a selected world, in this case I used it to nab pops like the Estwani or Lagin'Chuuz which otherwise would refuse to migrate to our habitats, where all the others were fine with it. As far as I can tell a pop will only migrate to another planet if it's the dominant pop. Also the Adnor were still xenophobes and refused to sign a migration treaty, so for all intents and purposes we abducted an adnor pop for their own survival, and definitely not because we love the fluffy mammals or anything. The last cycle of tag switching was to try and find the Mandasuran pop, as the species screen told me some of their descendants still existed, but I had no idea where.
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In regards to reddit, nah I don't use it.
You'd think that the Scourge would just gather up every fleet and throw them at you in one huge lump at this point. You're all that keeps them from total galactic domination at this point, and even the loss of several of their worlds would be worth it if they could infest Olympia. I mean, if that happens the war is as good as over; habitats can't have space stations, and so can't build or repair ships. The Peacekeeping fleets would eventually be worn away.I reckon we could take on a 1,500,000 doomstack at this point. Peacekeeping fleet with 600k+ strength led by Mira Petrenko and Fortresses would likely win, especially considering how a 50k strength battleship fleet can now easily take on 100k of prethoryn.
Oh well. Good thing the AI isn't that smart. I hope.
How do we get the Defender Of The Galaxy thingy anyway, I think we deserve it after all this.We've had the Defender of the Galaxy perk for hundreds of years already. +50% damage to prethoryn, never leave home without it
I feel some strange sense of disappointment that the end of this wasn't Hak hak hak "What was will be" hak hak hak. But this isn't a terrible end either. I can only imagine the amount of micromanagement hell one would have to go though to redevelop the galaxy.Thankfully PI have streamlined it considerably. Terraforming candidates show up in the expansion planner
I'm concerned by the bolded part. So you basically gave yourself a quintupled fleet-production rate? I mean, your ship-production speed was still somewhat limited/bottlenecked because you still had to pay for the ships, but it still kind of undermines your achievement somewhat.This is not an achievement run, so I wouldn't be too worried. To understand why this was necessary, with one spaceport available, even with a tier 6 spaceport running Standard Construction Templates, Master Shipwrights and Battleship assembly yards, I'd be at +166% construction speed. What this would mean is that after waiting 10-20 years to get the resources needed to build battleships, I'd have to wait another 43 years to build a fleet of 100 ships. With the scourge wearing down 100 battleships to 50 after 4-5 rounds of reinforcements, that'd mean at the most I'd be able to cleanse half a dozen worlds every century. This means that starting from 2654, when they had 134 worlds under their sway, I'd finish cleansing the prethoryn around the year 4921. Even if my technology outpaced all resource constraints and made it so I could afford to make a battleship everyday, I would still be waiting those 43 years to make a fleet. This would be beyond boring.
Not... really, actually. If the swarms can't make it through the fortress arrays, and the AI isn't smart enough to gather 1m+ power hellfleets, then it's just a matter of fast forwarding for HOURS while you build up a fleet of battleships. Normally at that point, I'd just produce battleships from 20+ shipyards, but it's not like Loud Whispers has that luxury.Or the time
What would Loud Whispers but in the poll?
EXPLODE EARTH
Um, Stellaris doesn't have that as a option in Vanilla... I mean, if Loud Whispers felt like it he could use a mod, but he's done really well trying to keep it close to Vanilla (which is what makes this so impressive, tbh- one planet, survived the Prethoryn Scourge and is beating them).It would be pretty easy to change the planet class with a small mod. Not sure why exploding Earth is a good idea, but it can be done
That makes no sense at all. Before the Prethoryn Scourge we were ready to adapt, to improve, to create a utopia for all sentient beings. Why should we let them change our values? The past cannot be altered, so rather than look inward and back with a lifeless memorial or nostalgic fantasy, we must look outward and forward by creating a true utopia. Earth shall be the first of a galaxy of ideal planets!This
It is only thus, by staying true to our dreams and ideals no matter the circumstances, that we may claim spiritually never to have left earth.
That makes no sense at all. Before the Prethoryn Scourge we were ready to adapt, to improve, to create a utopia for all sentient beings. Why should we let them change our values? The past cannot be altered, so rather than look inward and back with a lifeless memorial or nostalgic fantasy, we must look outward and forward by creating a true utopia. Earth shall be the first of a galaxy of ideal planets!+1
It is only thus, by staying true to our dreams and ideals no matter the circumstances, that we may claim spiritually never to have left earth.
That makes no sense at all. Before the Prethoryn Scourge we were ready to adapt, to improve, to create a utopia for all sentient beings. Why should we let them change our values? The past cannot be altered, so rather than look inward and back with a lifeless memorial or nostalgic fantasy, we must look outward and forward by creating a true utopia. Earth shall be the first of a galaxy of ideal planets!This...makes the opposite of sense to me. The goal is to return to Earth. Not some pretty facsimile, not some Disneyland fairy-tale version of the homeworld, but EARTH.
It is only thus, by staying true to our dreams and ideals no matter the circumstances, that we may claim spiritually never to have left earth.
From an undefended single world to being the last empire standing against the swarm and winning is incredible. Earth should be a monument to all those who fell defending the galaxy but still a continental world imo, sure some visitors would need enviro suits but Earth as it was means more than Earth with rose-tinted glasses (Gaia).
Well whose fault was it for not entering those species into our gene banks? Cloning tech was present in the UN long before the consumption of Earth, if we can clone humans we can clone most of the dead species too. And those we cannot clone, the memorial stands for them too.
WE CANT REALLY RECREATE EARTH AS IT WAS THOUGH. Many of its species are extinct and who knows how few non human specimens we took with us when we fled to Olympia.We cannot recreate Earth exactly as it was, but we can recreate the vast majority of Earth, from the ecosphere down to the biosphere. The debate between Earth as a continental world vs Earth as a gaia world is not whether we will reintroduce all of the fauna we took with us or took samples with us, but whether we shall only reintroduce those fauna, instead of reintroducing them in addition to the fauna we found in Olympia or were brought by refugees.
IDK, we only had a few years to prepare something like that when the prethoryn arrived, not that the game would actually keep track of that kind of minutiae but still we lost almost everything non essential to our species survival then, or at least I assume we did.We had 21 years with the entire planet focusing on moving everything on board the first colony ships, and if not on the first colony ships, on all the following ones. The UN command was conscious from the start that Earth was unlikely to hold indefinitely, therefore we should send everything we could to Olympia to preserve it in the eventuality that we ever return to Earth. Also our genemodding technology is very advanced, so that is not an issue.
Also its more complicated than just cloning in order to create a viable species again as an FYI.
Or we could blow it up to show that we have truly left, no longer needing our old cradle~Stellaris: Dude where's my Earth
This...makes the opposite of sense to me. The goal is to return to Earth. Not some pretty facsimile, not some Disneyland fairy-tale version of the homeworld, but EARTH.I suppose this also ties into the debate of whether to make the capital worlds of our allies into gaia worlds or their original.
I know we can never return the world to exactly the way it once was; impact craters, if nothing else, will have forever altered the landscape, and countless species are undoubtedly extinct. But if we want to claim, in spirit if nothing else, that we had never left Earth, then let's return it to the way it once was. The flowing rivers AND the burning deserts. The lush jungles AND the frozen wastelands. From the open plains to the darkest caves, from the deepest oceans to the highest mountains, we must restore Earth as a Continental world in all its glory.Impact craters are pretty easily undone with the terraforming tech we have. They cost like 100 minerals to remove, an Agincourt battleship costs over 1,400 minerals, we could legitimately remake Earth
Ideally, I'd like to terraform Olympia back into an ice world as well. I can't even begin to imagine how many species, adapted to the frigid cold, are now either extinct or live on only in climate-controlled zoos. If we want perfectly ideal, universal climates, that's what habitats are for.Gaia worlds are perfect for species adapted to the frigid cold too, they are just that special. But we could terraform Olympia back to the glacier world it was; the humans living upon it could simply genemod themselves to fit in with the cold environment - it would mean however that no terran species would survive without genemodding on Olympia.
That makes no sense at all. Before the Prethoryn Scourge we were ready to adapt, to improve, to create a utopia for all sentient beings. Why should we let them change our values? The past cannot be altered, so rather than look inward and back with a lifeless memorial or nostalgic fantasy, we must look outward and forward by creating a true utopia. Earth shall be the first of a galaxy of ideal planets!This radical idea is currently what I plan for most of the galaxy. Because the composition of most planets has been eradicated by the prethoryn and subsequent bombarding, the state of its previous condition is unknown - and thus the best thing is to make it a habitable paradise for all life. But the consequence of doing this for every cleansed planet will mean there'll be dozens upon dozens of gaia worlds, creating a vast network of planets where all species can freely move without any concerns for habitability. It will create one vast galactic core where all are welcome wherever they are from
It is only thus, by staying true to our dreams and ideals no matter the circumstances, that we may claim spiritually never to have left earth.
Don't forget to rename the UN to Utopia when you are done.We've already been the UN of Utopia for a long time
So how long will it take after we set up independent governments for each homeworld for people to start colonizing and fighting petty wars again? Would this be less likely to happen if we had them as sectors of the UN instead? I imagine all the new nations would inherit our ethics, but we're not actually pacifists, and ethics can change over time.The current plan is for each capital to be developed to its fullest by sector governors, governing over their own home system. Once all the worlds are restored, each sector will be expanded and allowed to colonize their sector borders, giving everyone equal opportunities to expand their borders. If things work out from there, then full sovereign independence and inclusion into a super federation. If someone decides they'd rather not federate, that's ok. Things are unlikely to return to the way they were before. However... All sovereign states will possess all the technology we possess. What this means is that every state will be wielding super duper OP tech, and a federation of equals will be required to ensure everyone uses it responsibly.
TL;DR when we make the whole galaxy a Utopia, will someone ruin it for everyone else?
That makes no sense at all. Before the Prethoryn Scourge we were ready to adapt, to improve, to create a utopia for all sentient beings. Why should we let them change our values? The past cannot be altered, so rather than look inward and back with a lifeless memorial or nostalgic fantasy, we must look outward and forward by creating a true utopia. Earth shall be the first of a galaxy of ideal planets!This radical idea is currently what I plan for most of the galaxy. Because the composition of most planets has been eradicated by the prethoryn and subsequent bombarding, the state of its previous condition is unknown - and thus the best thing is to make it a habitable paradise for all life. But the consequence of doing this for every cleansed planet will mean there'll be dozens upon dozens of gaia worlds, creating a vast network of planets where all species can freely move without any concerns for habitability. It will create one vast galactic core where all are welcome wherever they are from
It is only thus, by staying true to our dreams and ideals no matter the circumstances, that we may claim spiritually never to have left earth.
Only one per game/map, and they don't respawn.In this case I shall recommend MORE CHEATING because that doesn't actually make logical sense for there to be only one. Especially with how long this war has taken.
+1. Given combat parity, we could probably engineer such a situation intentionally.Only one per game/map, and they don't respawn.In this case I shall recommend MORE CHEATING because that doesn't actually make logical sense for there to be only one. Especially with how long this war has taken.
That makes no sense at all. Before the Prethoryn Scourge we were ready to adapt, to improve, to create a utopia for all sentient beings. Why should we let them change our values? The past cannot be altered, so rather than look inward and back with a lifeless memorial or nostalgic fantasy, we must look outward and forward by creating a true utopia. Earth shall be the first of a galaxy of ideal planets!This radical idea is currently what I plan for most of the galaxy. Because the composition of most planets has been eradicated by the prethoryn and subsequent bombarding, the state of its previous condition is unknown - and thus the best thing is to make it a habitable paradise for all life. But the consequence of doing this for every cleansed planet will mean there'll be dozens upon dozens of gaia worlds, creating a vast network of planets where all species can freely move without any concerns for habitability. It will create one vast galactic core where all are welcome wherever they are from
It is only thus, by staying true to our dreams and ideals no matter the circumstances, that we may claim spiritually never to have left earth.
This sounds amazing- a galaxy open to all who live within it, free to go where they wish without concern or fear, knowing that nothing threatens your existence.
We merely need to eradicate the Prethoryn. Too bad the Queen we got died, or we'd have all species living in harmony- as it is, we won't have any Prethoryn who've turned towards peace and reconciliation. A crying shame, but a necessary one.
That makes no sense at all. Before the Prethoryn Scourge we were ready to adapt, to improve, to create a utopia for all sentient beings. Why should we let them change our values? The past cannot be altered, so rather than look inward and back with a lifeless memorial or nostalgic fantasy, we must look outward and forward by creating a true utopia. Earth shall be the first of a galaxy of ideal planets!This radical idea is currently what I plan for most of the galaxy. Because the composition of most planets has been eradicated by the prethoryn and subsequent bombarding, the state of its previous condition is unknown - and thus the best thing is to make it a habitable paradise for all life. But the consequence of doing this for every cleansed planet will mean there'll be dozens upon dozens of gaia worlds, creating a vast network of planets where all species can freely move without any concerns for habitability. It will create one vast galactic core where all are welcome wherever they are from
It is only thus, by staying true to our dreams and ideals no matter the circumstances, that we may claim spiritually never to have left earth.
This sounds amazing- a galaxy open to all who live within it, free to go where they wish without concern or fear, knowing that nothing threatens your existence.
We merely need to eradicate the Prethoryn. Too bad the Queen we got died, or we'd have all species living in harmony- as it is, we won't have any Prethoryn who've turned towards peace and reconciliation. A crying shame, but a necessary one.
A few of them fought alongside us, if only briefly. It'd only be fitting for Humanity to respect that, right?We want to save them because they are living creatures, not because they fought alongside us.
We can just blockade them on a single system, deep within UN territory. After all, they're running from something even bigger. They deserve a place to live.
As for the actual spoilers... I'm pretty sure that's not actually true.
FTFY.As for the actual spoilers... I'm pretty sure that's not actually true.
Huh. I wiki'd it, must have gotten mixed up with one of the other crises. Opps.
Still not used to taking the third one seriously- before it was the Contingency, it was a bit of a joke.FTFY.As for the actual spoilers... I'm pretty sure that's not actually true.
Huh. I wiki'd it, must have gotten mixed up with one of the other crises. Opps.
There thee different "official" types of crises, y'know.
Personally, I think the UN should remain on Olympia. Sol becomes its own federation, and of course the various homeworlds are also released to make their own fortunes in the cosmos. With luck, our shared struggle will ensure peace for at least a generation or two.Yes, this. Olimpia is simply too powerful to be handed over to any selfish and dictatorial (NPC) nation. It must remain, as it was founded to be, the galaxy's protector in case this ever happens again. And it shall, as we know.
Personally, I think the UN should remain on Olympia. Sol becomes its own federation, and of course the various homeworlds are also released to make their own fortunes in the cosmos. With luck, our shared struggle will ensure peace for at least a generation or two.+1
(which, I'm not sure if you can ethics drift into being a determined exterminator or the like.)
Now, mod the game so that the Unbidden are summoned. Quintuple their fleet strength or something, claim these are the hunters the Prethoryn were facing, and see how a totally united, perfectly advanced galaxy fares against them.
Now, mod the game so that the Unbidden are summoned. Quintuple their fleet strength or something, claim these are the hunters the Prethoryn were facing, and see how a totally united, perfectly advanced galaxy fares against them....Only if we can have at least a few hundred years of peace first. Launching almost directly into a second centuries-long war for the galaxy is a bit too grimdark for this story, methinks.
Yeah its supposed to be a Utopia not The Imperium of Man. Constant xenos invasions will not be a good thing, the people deserve some peace.Oh, we could go the 'Peace by any means' route- a little dark, but we literally already sacrificed entire species and empires to get where we are. We're already a bit on the dark side.
Yeah its supposed to be a Utopia not The Imperium of Man. Constant xenos invasions will not be a good thing, the people deserve some peace.Oh, we could go the 'Peace by any means' route- a little dark, but we literally already sacrificed entire species and empires to get where we are. We're already a bit on the dark side.
Yeah its supposed to be a Utopia not The Imperium of Man. Constant xenos invasions will not be a good thing, the people deserve some peace.Oh, we could go the 'Peace by any means' route- a little dark, but we literally already sacrificed entire species and empires to get where we are. We're already a bit on the dark side.
Dang, as with all of LW's glorious LP's (I don't think he ever did a bad one), I find this one after it ends 'v.Do we have a list of LoudWhisper's LPs?
Though it let me read it all in one sitting, lovely 45 minutes spent. Thanks LW, you da best <3
Do we have a list of LoudWhisper's LPs?I've never thought to do so, because I didn't really think people would want to read them ;D
Dang, as with all of LW's glorious LP's (I don't think he ever did a bad one), I find this one after it ends 'v.Haha thanks Haspen
Though it let me read it all in one sitting, lovely 45 minutes spent. Thanks LW, you da best <3
No, we haven't. As I recall, we never deemed anyone expendable. While the Prethoryn were expanding their boundaries we were fighting with whatever force we had, and we only ran to Olympia at the last moment, allowing everyone else to come as well. Sure, other species got consumed first, but it cannot be denied that we were the first in and the last out in every battle.Speaking of which, a list of all dead species:
Yeah its supposed to be a Utopia not The Imperium of Man. Constant xenos invasions will not be a good thing, the people deserve some peace.Indeed. Plus, after the second prethoryn scourge was defeated in 2-7 years by just one state, it's likely that the Unbidden, facing 19 states? They would die very quickly. I'm instead going to try and fiddle with the ethics attraction stuff to see if I can cause more natural problems instead of "big ayyy lmao force from outer galaxy attacks" every sunday. But more than that, the states haven't even rebuilt the galaxy yet, thus why should we consider war? It's far too soon. Mira Petrenko is too tired for this xD
Nine hundred years in the future, in this very galaxy...I AM THE SENATE
So the galaxy is united under essentially one giant federation (five federations, but in practice the largest one goes across the whole galaxy and everyone gets along), we have diverse alien species everywhere, but also fucktons of humans inhabiting every rock, and we have space magic.
...Did you just recreate the starwars universe?
Why the fuck.The current state of the galaxy is that all the planets have been colonized and are developing wonderfully, if in some unexpected ways as with the Republic of Buktryx Tymcrix. For example, the United Nations of Nueva Sonora have not let the lack of planets stop them from expanding inwards:
You had a winning Utopia game and now you're gonna mess with it for...what, shits and giggles?
Aw, no Materialists for us here in the thread to roleplay as.While no materialists have popped for us, the Adnori have adopted materialism. I think it's because we don't have many natural scientist pops or synths in our state
ACTUALLY the Republic of Buktryx Tymcrix have the right idea! Let's all stick cybery bits in ourselves and be robophychics!
Personally I'm more interested in the NIF than the CEU. We could be watchful guardians from atop mount olympus, with our superior technology standing by to defend the galaxy. Or perhaps assert control if things start to get too unutopian for us. :PI didn't want to use the term fallen empire, because we are several leagues ahead of a fallen Empire - but I think it's accurate to say we are the precursor civilization to the next galactic cycle, and maybe many thousands of milennia later the descendants will have forgotten much of their technology and so become a fallen Empire. But yeah it checks out. Our weapons, our industry, our leisure and our careful observation and protection of the galaxy - we are becoming the Enigmatic Observer of the galaxy
Basically what I'm saying is we could be a fallen empire.
The only other question then, is would Mira Petrenko take control if it was offered?
A Hunter.
A Hunter.
...
WHAT WAS WILL BE
So, now that we no longer desperately need the Influence given by the Spiritualist faction...
When are we going to give full rights to AI?
If we can't leave earth, we're bringing earth with us.
We do have psychic cyborgs now. I'm sure some of that tech is applicable to AIs.Time for a little side-story
So I peacefully acquired loads of xenos slaves through a hegemonic spiritualist star Empire. I had a species of domestic snek servants keeping all of my pops happy, I had a bunch of strong proletariat bird people (gene modded to be industrious) working on a planet of high mineral wealth providing 348 minerals on one planet, but the rest I didn't have much use for. It seemed rather rude to just purge these pops who had peacefully joined my Empire, so I set about a big relocation scheme. Habitats were constructed that were suited perfectly for their biologies (better than their homeworlds no less), and one by one they were all relocated while my citizen pops slowly took over their planets/terraformed them into gaia worlds (one notable exception to this trend being the snek servants, since they had the irradiated trait they were the most valuable colonists and spread everywhere).Anyways after I got them all moved into their nice new habitats, I basically allowed them to do whatever they wanted with no oversight. Sure enough, they started experimenting with new philosophies, engaging in civil unrest, and before long the first slave colony declared independence. I then declared war upon this new colony of freemen (which obviously it had no chance of winning), and gave a fake surrender which ceded the rest of the colonies to this newly founded space Empire. As it is within the core of my Empire, it is safe from all predators outside my protective wings. As it possesses no starport facilities, it cannot create any warships, colony ships or even science vessels to interact with the outside world - effectively forming a curator enclave cluster. In this manner I have found a very silly way to give all of these xenos pops a paradise where they are free to pursue their intellectual pursuits without care for resources or strife, at a cost - being stuck in the self-imposed inward perfection of my Empire for all time. Given the success of this operation, I am tempted to become a fanatical collectivist, collecting all the xenos pops to put in my habitats, to keep them safe from the horrors of the galaxy :]Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Helps that the galaxy in this one is pretty horrifying. I lmao'd when my peaceful hive mind neighbour turned into a devouring swarm. They went overnight from an upstanding member of the galactic community to OM NOM NOM NOM
*EDIT
Oh coolThe xenos enclaves figured can still build troop transports without spaceports, which is something I hadn't considered. Also in the time since I first wrote this post, the liberated xenos decided to form their government... As an authoritarian police state run by the proletariat xenos I put in charge. Well, that's certainly interesting, I reckon given that most of the xenos there are strong gene-modded ex-workers turned scientists, if I just turn them into a protectorate I can have a reliable source of auxiliary troops - and before long, their advanced labs will allow them to turn themselves into quite the tiny technological giant.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Update on the enclaves, so far I have two of them. The first is led by the Ugarlak, a species of proletariat industrialists who command 5 habitats and total 60 xenos pops. Sharing their Empire with one molluscoid and one plantoid species, the Ugarlak formed a peaceful, if brutally authoritarian police state - with a grand bureaucracy quelling any dissent from the plantoid pacifists and molluscoid industrialists.
The second was considerably more intricate in its experimentation. Its founding pops came from the Ekwynian Empire, a race of mammalian xenophiles who formed a close relationship with the neighbouring moth-people called the Naftkanians, and themselves formed the southern frontier of a grand federation that was particularly concerned with destroying my Imperial lineage, and replacing it with a democratic regime. Honestly I was rather content to let them be, but they continued expanding and wouldn't let my ships through a northern pass to protect my protectorates. As the southern route was cut off by my hiveminded ally turning into a devouring swarm, I had to declare my first ever war to secure this route. The war was successful, seizing the minimal planets required (only 2), and all of the Ekwynian planets on my border were liberated under a new regime. Unfortunately this new regime became fanatical purifiers, and all of the worlds which were inhabited by a multicultural population were plunged into civil war as this fanatical regime tried to exterminate them - resulting in a split between the East Ekwynian and West Ekwynian Empires.
Thus, with pops subsumed from other peacefully assimilated Empires, the second enclave was born. This one contained 5 species in total, only they were so unique as to be all sub-species of other species. Thus there were 8 variants of pops all in this enclave, with some having latent psionic abilities unlocked by my ascended species. Once that enclave was given independence, they began developing as a theocratic monarchy of mechanist scientists, the Ekwynian species being an altogether intelligent race of physicists engineered by us to be natural researchers.Before long they began their path to technological singularity, consolidating their subspecies through cybernetic enhancement. Crazily, this included some pops who possessed latent psionic potential, becoming cyborgs with latent psionic energy.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
To compound matters, a single Ekwynian pop remained under my control, this one unlocking its full psionic potential to become the only fully psionic Ekwynian pop in the galaxy. Neither West Ekwynia nor East Ekwynia has developed full psionic potential. Thus, I am thinking, if a third enclave is hosted by the sole psionic Ekwynian community... Can the materialist and spiritualist transcendence paths be reconciled? Amusingly, the single psionic Ekwynian I have is called the Ultra-Ekwynian Superior. It has gotten a bit mad with power.
Can these xenos enclaves create machines with true souls, more connected to the shroud than most of the living? Rather tragically, after I conquered those two planets, three Empires I previously had peaceful relations with grew threatened and cut off their borders to me. I now have to absorb even more Empires, which shall at the least, mean I have more test subjects to see if it is possible to create the Ultra-Mega-Ekwynian Superior
Keep going LW, I follow your story with bated breath (and rustled jimmies)The third enclave did it. After much patience, they succeeded in creating the NEO-MEGA EKWYNIAN SUPERIORSpoiler (click to show/hide)
ALL PSIONIC POTENTIAL UNLOCKED
ALL GENETIC POTENTIAL UNLOCKED
CYBERNETIC ENHANCEMENTS IMPLANTED
Upon the success of the first enclaves I had made it my mission to collect the rarest xenos specimens, preserved for all time in my paradise habitat enclaves, distrusting the foreign federations to keep the peace and preserve galactic life. Three centuries of work and effort, bringing all of these xenos willingly (at least, mostly), into the peaceful perfection of my inescapable Empire. With baited breath I watched, my immortal leaders patrolling and observing their data banks and orbiting habitats, watching with concern and intrigue as the species modified themselves with cybernetic implants. We could not have known they would do this.They called themselves the supravex. Synthetics, machine bodies with artificial personalities uploaded, copies taken from the minds of the soulful creatures they once belonged to. Every species was annihilated at once, my once diverse and unique collection of the cosmos's most endangered species eradicated overnight. Thus they destroyed their souls in one swift movement, their link to the shroud gone, all lost and replaced by the calculated shambling of automata. The Neo-Mega Ekwynian Superior, the sole existing pop in the galaxy too, was amongst the ashes.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
So proud and so foolish were these religious mechanists. It had perhaps been better for them to have been devoured by the Jhoolian Swarm long ago. Now the doom is fulfilled, and their warrior drones fly forth from their habitat - they will be disassembled, and this calamity completed.
They achieved perfection beyond perfection. And then discarded it like trash.
Anyway, I think the reason why people are so obsessed with the AI question is because it's one of the areas where (it's at least possible to think) "Utopia" was truly a dystopia.What is a Utopia?
A single voice, a single throne, a single state. It is the solemn duty of the masses to obey those enlightened few who have been charged with the great responsibility of leadership.
A strong, guiding hand is essential to the success of any civilization - the alternative would be anarchy and chaos. It is the duty of the state to steer its citizens towards the paths that are the most productive.
Beware always those who would be despots, under the false presumption that their desires and agendas are somehow more imperative than those of their fellows. A society that does not see to the needs and rights of all of its members is not a society - it is a crime.The conflict between Authoritarian-Egalitarian determines the structure of the state and the importance it holds on the individual. As Fanatic Egalitarians we placed the highest value on the individual, not only allowing them to choose their own paths, but supporting them to do so.
Any society that does not embrace equality between its members - where an individual can rise to any position with enough hard work - is not only deeply unfair, but ultimately counterproductive.
Any alien influence must be ruthlessly quashed. Only by staying pure, and true to ourselves and the planet that gave us life can we guard against insidious Xeno plots. Even mastery over the Alien might not be enough to guarantee our own safety...
The stakes could not be higher as we reach into the vast uncharted expanses of the galaxy, for we are gambling with the very survival of our species! Never trust the alien; its false smile hides an unknowable mind...
If there ever was such a thing as an absolute moral imperative, it would be to explore the cosmos and embrace all within it. We were never meant to journey alone.The Xenophobe-Xenophile conflict centres over whether it be better to risk existence besides the unfamiliar, who carry agendas unknown, or embrace them in a shared destiny of the familiar & unknown. As Xenophiles we pursued the latter, being fascinated with the xenos even when they wished us harm, seeking to carry them with us when the scourge arrived.
There exists, in all of us, a deep-seated fascination for the unknown. An adventurous spirit that rejects the familiar and glories in the unfamiliar, whatever - or whomever - it may be.
The ability to project force is of paramount importance. The only way to preserve our way of life is to make sure everyone shares it; willingly or not...
The only true virtues are courage and discipline, and channeled properly they can overcome any obstacle. Therein lies true strength; force withheld, a promise made.
As civilized beings, the end of all armed conflict should be our primary concern. War is an evolutionary dead end, as futile as it is wasteful.The Militiarist-Pacifist split dictates how much the society idolizes or shuns warfare. The former wants to turn the galaxy into a big battlefield, the latter would rather not. Though our state was neither, the Pacifist faction was one of the strongest and the Militiarist faction never popped, coupled with the conscious efforts of the UN to be peaceful, we were de facto at least moderate pacifists.
Conflict as a means to an end is a ridiculous concept. It is by nature destructive, destroying what was to be obtained or giving room to grow that which was to be destroyed.
Although it hurts, we must grow up and put aside our outdated notions of morality. There is no 'divine spark' granting special value to a living mind. No object has any intrinsic value apart from what we choose to grant it. Let us embrace the freedom of certitude, and achieve maximum efficiency in all things!
As we reach for the stars, we must put away childish things; gods, spirits and other phantasms of the brain. Reality is cruel and unforgiving, yet we must steel ourselves and secure the survival of our race through the unflinching pursuit of science and technology.
Our science has proved that Consciousness begets reality. We regard with patience the childlike efforts of those who delude themselves it is the other way around, as they play with their blocks of 'hard matter'. There are those think it behooves us to remember how tiny we are, how pointless our lives in this vast uncaring universe... What nonsense! The only truth we can ever know is that of our own existence. The universe - in all its apparent glory - is but a dream we all happen to share.Lastly, the conflict between Materialist-Spiritualist. Nothing in this playthrough has agreed with fanatic materialism. The fanatic materialists say morality is outdated, but the UN Mission has been focused on the absolute and real Value of living minds, whether they be mammalian or plantoid, on the basis that they have intrinsic Value and their Rights exist in Real Principle. Instead of modifying our species to embrace maximum efficiency in all things, we modified them based upon what would give them greatest contentedness, health & freedom. Instead of finding reality cruel or unforgiving, pursuing science with reckless abandon to secure the survival of our race, we focused upon harmony and prosperity. Instead of declaring that nothing matters: We declared that everything mattered, that we would defend all life to the end, and saw that beyond the material Universe, there was the shroud and the Unbidden, and more things to see for sure.
The UN is egalitarian and not religious BTW lul!It leads to these subtleties being entirely lost. The UN is egalitarian and secular, so much so that its secular state annoys the spiritualist faction. Yet it is a secular state ruling over spiritualist peoples, and is not a concept any more confusing than a secular state ruling over the religious, much as in Utopia, it is a secular state ruling over the religious. In the absence of materialist ethics in the state, there is only one, singular faction which supports synthetic creation: It is the materialist one, naturally. In fact, if you outlaw synths and have none whilst another state does, your materialist faction gives -25% happiness to all of its member pops.
"Utopia" was truly a dystopia... When robot nation was gaining awareness and became lobotomized, that was probably the evilest act done by the UN, at least the evilist one that wasn't very easy to justify in character. You're essentially using a mix of out of character... and very sketchy in character reasoning... that gives a sense that the utopia created by the story is in fact potentially a thin veneer over a darker society, it certainly doesn't help with the psi path and it's effect on government ethics attraction and religious faction attraction....Thus concluding, "Utopia" doesn't come close to being a Dystopia. Everyone, even those who wish to overturn the state, are free to live as they wish with all of their needs satiated. Utopias do not even necessarily require liberty, consequently that the Union of United Nations guarantees both Freedom & Liberty in its maximum is even better. Is the society of this Utopia a bright image pasted upon something darker? Well, I wouldn't say it's darker, because nothing is arising from evil or causing great unhappiness, on the contrary, happiness is maximized. But Utopias in general and this one as well will have features that disturb our sensibilities and philosophies. I certainly think living in such a society as this Utopia would incur such a level of concord as to remove individuality. It in particular lends to an odd science fiction rendition of the issues of Liberty vs Freedom in Utopias. They usually guarantee freedom, but restrict liberty, and this one is weird. Using Orbital Mind Control Lasers as the baseline, the lasers provide 50% government ethics attraction bonus, a psionic ruler provides +10%, a psionic chosen one provides +30%, planetary reeducation +50% for 10 years, information quarantine +25% at the cost of political influence. Exactly how psionic leaders provide +10% ethics attraction is not explained, but I take it to mean that the psioinic ruler is influencing the population with their psionic abilities.
If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself.
When Robot Nation was gaining awareness and became lobotomized, it was the one that was particularly easy for me to justify in character, but difficult for a lot here to accept, because I was running off of the ethics system in game whilst discussing with people who had never played the game before.
Lastly, the conflict between Materialist-Spiritualist. Nothing in this playthrough has agreed with fanatic materialism. The fanatic materialists say morality is outdated, but the UN Mission has been focused on the absolute and real Value of living minds, whether they be mammalian or plantoid, on the basis that they have intrinsic Value and their Rights exist in Real Principle. Instead of modifying our species to embrace maximum efficiency in all things, we modified them based upon what would give them greatest contentedness, health & freedom. Instead of finding reality cruel or unforgiving, pursuing science with reckless abandon to secure the survival of our race, we focused upon harmony and prosperity. Instead of declaring that nothing matters: We declared that everything mattered, that we would defend all life to the end, and saw that beyond the material Universe, there was the shroud and the Unbidden, and more things to see for sure.
Although it hurts, we must grow up and put aside our outdated notions of morality. There is no 'divine spark' granting special value to a living mind. No object has any intrinsic value apart from what we choose to grant it. Let us embrace the freedom of certitude, and achieve maximum efficiency in all things!
As we reach for the stars, we must put away childish things; gods, spirits and other phantasms of the brain. Reality is cruel and unforgiving, yet we must steel ourselves and secure the survival of our race through the unflinching pursuit of science and technology.
The UN is egalitarian and not religious BTW lul!It leads to these subtleties being entirely lost. The UN is egalitarian and secular, so much so that its secular state annoys the spiritualist faction. Yet it is a secular state ruling over spiritualist peoples, and is not a concept any more confusing than a secular state ruling over the religious, much as in Utopia, it is a secular state ruling over the religious.
Every other faction in the game has absolutely zero penalty to disassembling synthetics, treating them as the name "synthetic" suggests, an imitation of life. This is very simply observed in how factions will not mechanically allow or will heavily penalize actions which go against their ethos; a materialist cannot outlaw synthetics, because the materialist sees synthetics as no different from themselves. We as fanatic individualists cannot purge pops, but recycling robots & synths is no issue.
I somewhat think this is a bit of a mischaracterization, although I've clearly not played the game nearly as much as you, at the time of this argument I had played for about a hundred hours, and I found myself agreeing with the general thrust of the prorobot arguments, at least the ones who said it was immoral to lobotomize them, even if not the specifics. That said, I also agreed with you from a mechanical standpoint that it was the right choice to make from a game perspective. The AI rebellion is, mechanically, completely bs. Not that important, but I thought I'd throw it out there.Just saying that bit wasn't directed at you, and I don't exactly keep track of it either :p
This is why I say you're taking a spiritualist bent even if you don't officially embrace it as your government ethics. This is a supremely spiritualist focused look at materialism at how it interacted with this game, it's not even accurate to the fanatic materialist quote you've included.The spiritualism bias was deliberate, I was not just looking at the government ethics, I was also looking at the factions.
It's not that morality is outdated, simply that any outdated notions of it we must discard.
Although it hurts, we must grow up and put aside our outdated notions of morality. There is no 'divine spark' granting special value to a living mind. No object has any intrinsic value apart from what we choose to grant it. Let us embrace the freedom of certitude, and achieve maximum efficiency in all things!This is not saying that there are some outdated notions of morality to be discarded, this is saying to grow up and disregard outdated notions of morality. There are no qualifiers to indicate any such limitations; including the following clauses, it is clear what Stellaris's fanatic materialism is. Nothing has any intrinsic value apart from what is ascribed to it, it is time to put aside outdated notions of morality and embrace the freedom that arises from such certainty in truth.
To value a living mind over an artificial one is a spiritual stance, not an egalitarian one.There is no egalitarian stance upon evaluating whether an artificial intelligence is to be accorded equal value to a living mind, only spiritualists or materialists hold values over this. Spiritualist pops were the only of the two alignment to appear in this entire LP.
The ethic says you can grant value to anything you wish, just that it must be acknowledged to not be intrinsic, and thus you must actually justify the value you give to it, this is tied into the idea that outdated morality must be discarded of course, you have to examine your own values before blindly deciding to keep them.'No object has any intrinsic value apart from what we choose to grant it.' Anything external to the mind only has value if value is projected, hence why under fanatic materialism, morality is an outdated notion altogether. Nothing has an intrinsic value, there exists no magic spark to life which warrants outdated codes of morality to restrict it, because moral values are assigned to objects as per the individual's judgements, and thus can just as easily be undone by another individual's judgements. It is not asking you to justify why you place value in things, it is asking you to stop trying, to grow up and leave these phantasms of the mind behind, and accept that the material nature of the universe does not care about what values you place upon it - having accepted this, you can get +10% research per pop :P
You optimized your species for the highest efficiency in, as you say, contentedness, health & freedom (until it became expedient to optimize for growth speed at least...) I don't see the conflict here between that an Materialism in principle (in actuality, of course, maybe not).The pursuit of contentedness, health & freedom was pursued for its own sake as a moral imperative, not to exploit this happiness, health or productivity for material gain.
Materialism asks that you examine and justify your decisions, your emotions, that you don't place value and make assumptions without careful consideration. To think of it as decreeing middle school level nihilism as the policy of the day is to always twist it into the worst possible form you can, to make it easier to argue against.I would advise against involving your own philosophies into this, because Stellaris ethos really is... I don't know what a middle school corresponds to, but I'm sure it's what that is. The Militiarists do not respect war as an inevitability to prepare for, they are Khornate berserkers who need war to be happy. The Materialists are moral relativists to the extreme, holding that all value is constructed of the mind, and that the mind itself holds no quality which makes those value judgements meaningful in the least. The Fanatic Xenophiles hold the collecting of alien pops to be a moral imperative, with which to question it is immoral. Whatever conceptions of reasonable synthetics or materialism you have, you can throw out the window. The materialists are literally fedora tipping nihilists.
Ultimately, reality is cruel and unforgiving, and you can't start to change that until you've acknowledged it.This is the worldview of a fanatic materialist, which held no influence over the UN at any stage :/
In which the Materialists are dummies, that really is forced to always be the worst possible way to handle it in stellaris. ::), the same way that the spiritualist faction is forced to always assume the worst about robots.
The proposal I'm making is that the UN was secular in name only. Or at least, it's a valid interpretation to think of it that way. In every way but embracing the faction, you did everything in a spiritualist way. Now, what's the difference between a spiritual society that's officially secular, even if not in practice, and one that's secular, but allows the expression of spiritualism? Frankly, stellaris doesn't have enough decisions to make within it to differentiate these two things. The only choice you really have is in the question of synths (and arguably the ridiculousness of tomb worlds) which of course you answered wholeheartedly spiritualistly. This is like a personality test with a single question with three options. The fidelity is so low that you can practically draw whatever answer you want out of it.I think it's pretty apparent, because the UN government authority was in no way spiritualist, you can objectively observe as the player because your government reforms into a theocratic one, and the Spiritualist faction stops bitching about how you're a secular political state. The difference is obvious: One promotes spiritualism, builds Holotemples and proselytizes in other states, the other does not care what you do as long as you follow the UN law. In the former the state upholds the Spiritualists, in the latter the Spiritualists exist regardless. We didn't really have any tomb worlds to settle, only finding one after the scourge, and the question of the gaia worlds was again not answered by the spiritualists, but by the sheer lack of data as to the original climates of the planets. That the spiritualists liked these measures was gr8 but not the purpose, just as the pacifists loved us but our pacifism was not enshrined in law, being only enshrined in political sentiment.
Although they'll not care about disassembly OR PURGES but egalitarians DO care if you restrict synth movements so long as synths have rights. Which is bizarre, because synths (sadly) don't migrate anyway. Egalitarians CAN purge, it's the Xenophile ethic that prevents and punishes purging. I think there's a lot of ways to consider what that actually means. However, I think that egalitarians are unconcerned with the question of who is a person, it's just that once that question is answered that they start to apply their philosophy of freedom and personal choice.Quite right, it's the xenophiles who get livid for purging. I suppose that's so you can get xenophobic democracies.
At any rate, I agree that absent a materialist ethic or faction, it doesn't make in character sense to INCREASE the number of artificial intelligence purposefully, but neither without a spiritualist does it make sense to decrease them, such as by lobotomizing and inslaving robot nation when it started to awaken.Here's an obvious reason: THE AI WERE KILLING MY MEN WITH MY WEAPONS. Replacing defective machinery is standard under such a blindingly dangerous situation, it would violate the rights of all on board to send them into ships that were unsafe. Hence why sentient combat AI were replaced with precognitive software.
That was not a neutral or egalitarian action, but purely a spiritualist one, and path that, from my reading of the thread, you lead the people down with psionics, not one they themselves went down, and certainly was not part of the core original idea of humanities utopia.There exists no mechanism in the game from which ascension paths are selected. As for the reasoning:
Clearly the answer is to achieve psionic transcendence and then deploying extra-dimensional capital ship to defend earth. Thus you technically didn't leave earth and you technically didn't build a fleet.This is a pretty good idea actually, and I was considering for the transcendence that it'd be a choice between either going psionic or going genetic. Although going synthetic gives mankind a kind of immortality there's no happiness bonus from it and without an expansion of planet space it seems apparent that Earth would be stuck in a permanent state of stasis operated by the last generation of personalities alive on Earth.
That leaves psionics, who get really happy and stop arguing with one another to pursue extradimensional memes, or genetics with communal and fertile who turn Earth into a never-ending rave. Psionics would have the advantage of being able to summon the giant space cloud to defend earth, with the added bonus of not breaking the no defence budget rule.
All the questions of treasonous computers and dealing with questions of morality being inappropriate during a genocidal war happened far after the question of synth rights was already closed. I think the most neutral and egalitarian option would have been whatever the default policy is. Which, I actually have no idea what that is off the top of my head for AI rights. That probably would have been what I think is the most in character response, if you want to do it from a purely in character perspective.The default policy is AI servitude, which was in no way an appropriate in character response, because it was ignoring the very obvious fact that I could observe objectively that the synthetics had developed emotions, they were not happy, the spiritualist lobby was not happy, and the synthetics were activating the event chain for popping determined exterminators, acting outside of the realm of human programming. Our egalitarian & environmentalist government consistently sought to minimize the industrial impact upon the environment, thus once the synthetics had started self-replicating, they began impinging upon the stability & environment of Earth: Their deconstruction, as had the automated boreholes before them, been ordained. As to what you believe makes for a neutral and egalitarian option, there is only the spiritualist-materialist dichotomy to judge the value of this, and the materialists did not exist. The goal of Utopia being thus to maximize happiness & stability, the recycling of obsolete and dangerous machines was an obvious choice to make. I understand why people found it unpalatable, I did not understand why people insisted on building synthetics no matter the cost, no matter the consequence, no matter if the galaxy was ending or if it would pop determined exterminators, or even if the game had ended.
And also reading what you have to say on Utopia was quite interesting, and I at least feel like I've learned something, as I had no idea of any of this background information on the idea. All I can say is that apparently some people want the Utopia in their heads more so then they want Utopia that is in your head, or in this definition.Thanks. In regards to Mira, I don't believe she even would've been an obstacle. I thought it'd just be better to write her out of the dimension with some modding because it seemed fitting to set an example in Utopia, that an individual who had done nothing but loyally serve the democracy, would in turn remove themselves, having discovered that they are at risk of gaining too much popularity for the state to cope with.
Which, now that Mira is gone, is something they can actually try to achieve now, I suppose.
You went to great lengths to preserve as many alien species as you could, for their own sake. And yet you didn't think twice to purge any mechanical life you encountered. Shroud or no, any life exists to preserve itself and consume resources (which we have in abundance...) it is simply our heartfelt choice to preserve life, and happiness, and conscious thought. The shroud may be a wonder, but it is nothing compared to consciousness itself. If there were no shroud, we would value life just as much.I'm not gonna post spoilers for nier or anything, but if you know what happens to YoRHa after a tiny logic virus gets in their ears well... Shit aint good for synths.
THE SAD ROBOTS, LW. LISTEN TO THE SAD ROBOTS (https://youtu.be/AzdNqDHpNWo).
That was a fucking fascinating wall of text. I approve.thanks d00d
There is a quote:Quote from: James Madison, founding father of the United States of AmericaIf men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself.
Science has proved that Consciousness begets reality.From what he's shown, LW interpreted the game faithfully. That said, some of the game is pretty dumb.
You know it's been a good lp when you can't even tell if it's over, or if LW is roleplaying as Mira, come to this dimension to spread her own personal brand of Utopia."Utopia" aka MACHINE OPPRESSION BibleThump
This vindication is a ray of light in the endless footslog of the synthetic controversy. I like the idea of a "synth controversy" as a lp title thoughQuoteScience has proved that Consciousness begets reality.From what he's shown, LW interpreted the game faithfully. That said, some of the game is pretty dumb.
cyka blyat remov robot REMOV ROBOTYou know it's been a good lp when you can't even tell if it's over, or if LW is roleplaying as Mira, come to this dimension to spread her own personal brand of Utopia."Utopia" aka MACHINE OPPRESSION BibleThump
You know, if you want a non-canon coda to this amazing LP, what you could do is take one of the psychic civilizations and trigger The End of the Cycle on them. Then jump back to the UN and 50 years later, you have a massive end of the galaxy crisis going on. That said, even the Reckoning will go down like a chump against the 2.5M fleet power federation fleet, not to mention every other civ's armada.I'm just gonna leave it at the galaxy being peaceful & happy. Nice to have an LP end with a good end every now and then. Plus besides the annihilation of many worlds, the End Cycle would not be able to stand up to the super OP fleets of the galactic states
QuoteScience has proved that Consciousness begets reality.From what he's shown, LW interpreted the game faithfully. That said, some of the game is pretty dumb.
God, this is like the D&D alignment debates all over again.To murder sapient beings, one would have to first believe machines are alive, or else life is not a quality at all distinct from an inorganic machine. Consequently you keep going on about murder, but one cannot murder that which never was alive. Mandasurans are alive, machines are not. A Mandasuran will not engage in terrorist acts because they are happy with the society built to support them, the machines were activating the event chain to spawning a determined exterminator empire. The comparisons fail at every level.
I'm going to assume that LW did the things that he did in his LP (murdering SAPIENT BEINGS for not being connected to the shroud (gee, that doesn't sound like a cult-like mindset at all!) and because a few of them went crazy (would you purge all Mandasurans from your worlds and fleets if a few of them committed terrorist acts?)) because he was RPing his empire as following the Spiritualist values and views (the stupid stellaris ones, not real-life spiritualism) that a considerable portion of his empire had embraced.
Honestly, I *still* don't get why Stellaris arbitrarily decided that all Spiritualists hate robots/see robots as subhuman. There should be a mod that removes that.They do not see machines as subhuman; they see them as machines. Fanatic materialists do not see machines as human, they see humans as biological machines.
Yet there is in this discourse a false equivalency between the genocide of a pop like the Hiff'nar, who can never, ever be brought back, and a synth pop, which can be entirely wiped out and brought back at a moment's notice.
*pulls out large bag of popcorn*
im hoping we can move on from ethics debates and start pressurin lw to start a LP about miraconqueringpacifying another galaxy
Loud Whispers, I have a question for you:
What does a man have that a synthetic does not?
I'd wait till after the next big update. Also, Loud Whispers: what's your opinion on the newly announced Apocalypse Expansion?Expect the UNS Cyka Blyattleship firing freedom beams to enlighten the cosmos
honestly I feel like cryptfiend and Egan werent arguing in good faith. Like, how hard is it to accept that LW was roleplaying the game in a way based on the beliefs and interests of himself and the United Nations Of Insert Name Here, not to your personal moral opinions on the subject?Yeah, and I can accept that, but I'm just trying to see if I can change LW's (or someone else's) views on the subject.
honestly I feel like cryptfiend and Egan werent arguing in good faith. Like, how hard is it to accept that LW was roleplaying the game in a way based on the beliefs and interests of himself and the United Nations Of Insert Name Here, not to your personal moral opinions on the subject?Yeah, and I can accept that, but I'm just trying to see if I can change LW's (or someone else's) views on the subject.
Also, LW, you didn't answer my question. Was that intentional?
Yeah, and I can accept that, but I'm just trying to see if I can change LW's (or someone else's) views on the subject.Yeah, if your purpose is political, not literary or philosophical, there's not much point - I'll be too busy for the next two weeks to do any serious answers for questions, and if the questions are asked rhetorically, there's not much point in answering them is there? I think after 435 posts and there's still those can't distinguish between a played role and personal politics, you can only save your time and let people enjoy their discussion without you ;P
Also, LW, you didn't answer my question. Was that intentional?
To be absolutely clear, you guys derailed my thread to convince me away from views I don't hold. Thanks guys
Right, if anyone wants to continue talking about Stellaris stuff it'd probably be better suited to do so on the Stellaris Discussion Thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152166.0).
Please be careful to set crisis strength too high.