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I am religious and believe in free will

70 (27.6%)

I am religious and do not believe in free will

10 (3.9%)

I am not religious and believe in free will

113 (44.5%)

I am not religious and do not believe in free will

61 (24%)

Total Members Voted: 249

[TempAcc]

There's also the fact that homosexuality may have been strongly associated with paganism at the time, specially with romans, who dominated the galilee at the time of Jesus, so that was rule was probably enforced more as a way of keeping the hebrews from becoming heavily influenced by foreign culture, which was always a constant fear of theirs, and a detriment to the creation of new families.
I personally consider it as something we should do away with, since it lost its contextual importance, but I'm a heretic, soooooo

[Rolepgeek]

Okay, so, while we're having a good discussion/Q&A session, there's something I've never really understood.

How is "God is All-Good/Perfect" and "God is Jealous About His Stuff" reconciled, typically? Or, rather, not typically, but reasonably?

Because I usually don't think of Jealousy as being a Good Thing; or at the very least it seems bad when connected to Wrath, which is sorta what God ends up doing. I get how it works if you decide that Good=God and any other measure is false ideals, but since debates/discussions must be made on common ground, and I don't really think that 'I was created by X, thus I should love them' is a valid reasoning, personally*, I'm not sure how to come at this.

Is it just a fundamental difference in ideals/values that leads me to these conclusions, or am I misunderstanding things?

I always thought the forbidding of homosexuality came from the fact that STDs are more easily spread via anal sex due to the tissues not being exactly well adapted for it (being Ye Olden Times and lube being rather not invented yet probably didn't help), and you need people making babies for the species to continue with the levels of death/disease and whatnot, before getting to the other stuff like 'they're different from the majority' and 'might screw around with the couples dynamic that we've been trying to get going here'.

We're having problems with too many people at this point, though, so....

Spoiler: *Mini-Rant (click to show/hide)

Plenty of people have abusive parents, and I personally think adoptive parents are more worthy of their child's affections than parents who give up their child (not necessarily hated, either, I just think that lineage of mind has become more important than lineage of body, which is based on who raised you (more)).

[Graknorke]

Jealousy isn't an imperfection when God does it. Dilemna solved.

And doesn't the Bible implicitly condone anal sex between married couples? At least, it explicitly forbids it for everyone else, so the omission comes across as not an oversight.

[Orange Wizard]

The Jealousy Isn't Good thing is typically reconciled by distinguishing between jealousy for what is rightfully yours. If someone gets something through underhanded means, and you are jealous because it should have gone to you, then that is fine and reasonable. If a person is jealous because their spouse is cheating on them, that too is reasonable.
In the case of God being jealous, this is in relation to worship. As far as God is concerned, he is the only one deserving of our praise and worship, and is jealous when we treat another thing as more important than he.

...

And doesn't the Bible implicitly condone anal sex between married couples? At least, it explicitly forbids it for everyone else, so the omission comes across as not an oversight.

Biblically, the only kind of sex that is forbidden is that which involves people outside of marriage. Song of Solomon basically encourages couples to get it on in whatever way strikes their fancy.

[Frumple]

It's not just "more" important, though...

[Graknorke]

Isn't it? That's what the 1st commandment says, it's about which god is first, not that you worship them at all.

[Orange Wizard]

"You shall not make for yourself an idol ... you shall not bow down to them or worship them"

Worshipping gods other than God is expressly forbidden. My phrasing was wonky because I also had in mind the thing about keeping God first in everyday life (e.g. going to the rugby instead of church) where it's less of a "never do this" and more of a "there's a time for this and a time for that".

[MetalSlimeHunt]

There is substantial evidence to suggest that Judaism began as a polytheistic religion, of which Yahweh was only one god. Eventually, shifts in society lead to him being declared first an predominant god and then the one and only god.

[Rolepgeek]

The Jealousy Isn't Good thing is typically reconciled by distinguishing between jealousy for what is rightfully yours. If someone gets something through underhanded means, and you are jealous because it should have gone to you, then that is fine and reasonable. If a person is jealous because their spouse is cheating on them, that too is reasonable.
In the case of God being jealous, this is in relation to worship. As far as God is concerned, he is the only one deserving of our praise and worship, and is jealous when we treat another thing as more important than he.

I get the distinguishing between envy and jealousy thing. I suppose my question is about the nature of that. If I am denied what is 'rightfully' mine (and I have qualms about the idea of that too as it ends up being about entitlement, somewhat, as well), because of underhanded means, then my frustration would be as much or more about the underhandedness of it as losing what I felt should have been mine. I'm only gonna touch on the spouse thing cuz' that's gonna just be a difference of values, what with being codified in the bible and all.

So then, I guess now my question is sort of about why God either needs, wants, or feels entitled to our worship/praise, to the exclusion of all else. To me, at least, 'I made you' isn't a good enough reason, nor is 'I can unmake you'. That might just be me reacting against authority/power dynamics that appear (from my perspective) as unwarranted or unearned. From a perspective of him being omnibenevolent and/or one seriously concerned about getting into His good Grace(s), I can see why that might differ.

[wierd]

The Jealousy Isn't Good thing is typically reconciled by distinguishing between jealousy for what is rightfully yours. If someone gets something through underhanded means, and you are jealous because it should have gone to you, then that is fine and reasonable. If a person is jealous because their spouse is cheating on them, that too is reasonable.
In the case of God being jealous, this is in relation to worship. As far as God is concerned, he is the only one deserving of our praise and worship, and is jealous when we treat another thing as more important than he.

I get the distinguishing between envy and jealousy thing. I suppose my question is about the nature of that. If I am denied what is 'rightfully' mine (and I have qualms about the idea of that too as it ends up being about entitlement, somewhat, as well), because of underhanded means, then my frustration would be as much or more about the underhandedness of it as losing what I felt should have been mine. I'm only gonna touch on the spouse thing cuz' that's gonna just be a difference of values, what with being codified in the bible and all.

So then, I guess now my question is sort of about why God either needs, wants, or feels entitled to our worship/praise, to the exclusion of all else. To me, at least, 'I made you' isn't a good enough reason, nor is 'I can unmake you'. That might just be me reacting against authority/power dynamics that appear (from my perspective) as unwarranted or unearned. From a perspective of him being omnibenevolent and/or one seriously concerned about getting into His good Grace(s), I can see why that might differ.

You are thinking about this from a decidedly obtuse viewpoint.

Think more:

"Look, I bought my dishes from the store, so that I could eat dinner on them. That's what I purchased them for, and I dont want them being used for anything else. The fact that the dishes happen to be sentient does not give them permission to run away with the flatware, no matter how cute that spoon is."

EG, The christian god created human kind to worship him. That is the purpose the humans were created for. What the humans want to do is moot-- god had a specific purpose in mind, and wants us to fulfill that purpose.

Much like how you might be angry to learn that all your dishes ran away with cute little spoons one day when you are just to eat something, the christian god gets a bit angry when the humans he created to worship him instead decide to run off and do their own things.

Basically.

[origamiscienceguy]

Because it would insult what Jesus did. It would be like someone offering to buy you dinner, then you buying the most expensive thing on the menu.

Clearly you haven't been to one of those churches where they tell you that the only thing you need to do to be saved is to ask Jesus to be your personal savior. (I attended one one time, on an invitation)

Methinks there are quite a few people who fail into this segment of Christianity, since it is literally effortless and their Jesus apparently forgives everything.

When you accept christ, the Holy spirit comes in you and slowly makes you a better person. Accepting Christ is all you need, and being a better person is a result of that.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

[Bohandas]

There is substantial evidence to suggest that Judaism began as a polytheistic religion, of which Yahweh was only one god. Eventually, shifts in society lead to him being declared first an predominant god and then the one and only god.

I got the impression that it was less of a smooth shift and more a matter of increasingly fanatical henotheistic sects hacking away at each other until there was only one left who suppressed the other deities as an expression of contempt

[Shadowlord]

Because it would insult what Jesus did. It would be like someone offering to buy you dinner, then you buying the most expensive thing on the menu.

Clearly you haven't been to one of those churches where they tell you that the only thing you need to do to be saved is to ask Jesus to be your personal savior. (I attended one one time, on an invitation)

Methinks there are quite a few people who fail into this segment of Christianity, since it is literally effortless and their Jesus apparently forgives everything.

When you accept christ, the Holy spirit comes in you and slowly makes you a better person. Accepting Christ is all you need, and being a better person is a result of that.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

Rebuttal: Creflo Dollar.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

"The fact that the dishes happen to be sentient does not give them permission to run away with the flatware, no matter how cute that spoon is."

Rather than talk about hypothetic sentient dishes that you bought from a store, you could build a scenario around legitimately acquired slaves deciding for themselves to serve a different master, might be more plausible. Or better yet, your daughters marrying someone of their own choosing rather than marrying you the husband you chose for them

e: i've another idea, since you could argue that gods sentience is superior while masters\slaves\fathers\daughters are roughly the same class of creature, being pissed at your young children because they prefer the company of their favorite uncle rather than your own

[TempAcc]

The interpretation of God's personality and interests according to scripture largely depends on faith, so its hardly something can be easily discussed :v. I personally believe the bible's interpretations of God's motives and personality as being mostly flawed, since it was written by people who lived in a time in which thinking of something/someone as a lord and master without the characteristics of a tyrannical ruler was nigh unthinkable.
Even the bible itself, depending on translation, admits that we don't really know God, and due to His qualities, its impossible for us to truly know God. In being unable to understand God, we attributed to Him the kingly qualities of the time.

Behold, God is great, and we know him not (as in beyond our knowledge), neither can the number of his years be searched out.

This is also a theme thats explored in hinduism. At one point, vishnu, as one of his avatars (I think) shows his true self to a woman, who cannot help but beg that he turns back into human form, because its supposedly so utterly absurdly unthinkable her mind literally suffers from trying to grasp it.